GUILTY Thailand - David Miller, 24, & Hannah Witheridge, 23, Koh Tao, 15 Sep 2014

[newone]

So. We have Hannah apparently sharing a cigarette with an unknown Asian man on the beach. We have David seen alone on CCTV heading in that direction (probably on way back to his accom). It has always been reported that they had left the bar together but was that just an assumption?

Just thought re the cigarette - if someone had been kissing Hannah and had a cigarette afterwards could her DNA (from saliva) got onto the cig? Do we know if she was a smoker?

or by drinking from same bottle or glass

 

[gia2]

Confusing :waitasec: Why are they getting DNA samples from females? Where did they find a female DNA in relation to the crime?

So now we have DNA from 3 different Asian males AND possible DNA from a female?

So 4 possible perps? Poor Hannah and David didn't stand a chance

The male DNA found on the cigarette matches one of the DNA samples taken from Hannah, so there is only DNA from two Asian males at the scene (based on what I've read anyway).

I'm not sure where the suspicion of a female being involved comes from. I don't believe any unknown female DNA has been recovered so far. It seems police are looking into females due to footprints found at the scene. They're asking women to leave a footprint in the sand and have their photo taken with the print. It's very strange if that is the only evidence of a female's involvement, I assume they have more clues that we haven't been told about yet.

I read an article a few days ago (I'll try and find it) which suggested that David and Hannah were walking along the beach and attacked. David fought with the attacker(s) and Hannah was able to flee, only to be caught up with and taken to a more secluded area behind rocks to be assaulted and killed. David was then dragged into the water. This was the only story which I found which gave this sort of description. I assume this story was based on the footprints found at the scene (or maybe the journalists are just filling in the gaps with speculation in the absence of information!) Perhaps police aren't sure if these were Hannah's or an attackers so are just going down this as a potential lead.

Realistically, what could the police assertain from a matching footprint in sand? A small footprint could come from a female, young male or small adult male. They could be from earlier or after the attacks. Perhaps they closely follow those of the suspected attackers and that is why they're believed to be linked to the crime.
Those of you who've seen the scene photos, did you see any possible bloody footprints at the scene?

 

[sar2them1984]

I couldn't see footprints in the areas of Hannah and David whoch couldn't be explained away. The crime sceme seemed fairly open with not much preservation of the surrounding area. In one photo I have seen there were at least 10 police officers in the immediate vicinity of one of the bodies. Likewise in the leaked close up photo of Hannah you can see that the police did not use shoe covers or similar.

Also from the photo it looked like the ground in the area in which Hannah was found was very compact. In fact it could even be a hard stone.

 

[dotr]

Wondering if there are strip bars and/or, prostitution near where the bodies were found?

 

[dotr]

New, pics, cctv of David and Hannah's last moments seen alive..

"CCTV footage shows Hannah Witheridge enjoying a night out with friends, just hours before she was brutally murdered on a Thai beach.

Hannah, 23, was captured on video walking with a group of friends between bars on the island of Koh Tao last Sunday.

Thai police are also studying CCTV showing the final hours of David Miller, who was found dead alongside Hannah on the beach.

He is seen twice in the footage - once high fiving a mystery local man and on the second occasion he appears to be talking to an unknown Western couple"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-final-cctv-4291808#ixzz3DrwI4ThN
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

 

[gia2]

We don't actually know for certain that they went to that beach together, do we? CCTV now showing David on his own walking towards it. Could it be possible Hannah had made her own way back home and was getting attacked, as David went by he heard shouts and went to help?

No, I think it’s just an assumption that they were together due to the fact they both ended up being killed that night at the same location. I wonder how well they got to know each other in the 3 days Hannah and her group of friends were on the island for before the attack.
The police must have a fairly accurate timeline of the evening/night based on Hannah and David's friends and probably a lot of other tourists as well in the area. That should inform them as to whether David and Hannah were together when attacked or not, I wonder why they’ve not clarified the timeline.
Some possible scenarios:
1. Hannah and David decided to walk back to the hotel together and were attacked
2. David’s path home took him very close to an attack occurring/just occurred on Hannah, he is unaware but attacked as well
3. Walking home David becomes aware of an attack on Hannah, tries to help and is attacked
4. David was already back in the hotel (his room looks directly out on to the area of the attack) when Hannah was attacked. He hears/sees what is happened and tries to help.
5. David and Hannah walked back to the hotel separately. Hannah was attacked first and the attackers remain at the scene for a short time afterwards. In that time David is walking home and attacked as well.

I think those are the main/most likely turn of events, any other suggestions?

Does anyone here have knowledge of the area or perhaps a detailed map which shows where the town, hotel and beach party location is?

 

[gia2]

CCTV images of Hannah walking with friends between bars in the town on the night of the murders. No time given and no new information.
here

EDIT: This article has the actual CCTV footage. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-final-cctv-4291808

 

[ChuckieD]

That's even more heartbreaking. He could have been saved if he had been found before the tide came.

I don't know if he could have been, his head wounds were terrible and I'm sure I read he had a terrible neck wound which you can't see in the pictures that I have seen.

David and Hannah's apartments were opposite of each other and one overlooked the murder scene. Does anybody else think it could be possible that David had gone to bed (possibly a naked sleeper)/chilling out in his room, Hannah was attacked in her apartment, she flees to escape, runs towards the beach and David, hearing the commotion chased after? Were David's clothes found on-site or not recovered?

I am pleased (for want of a better word) that it looks like David and Hannah were not involved, my heart absolutely broke for his girlfriend back home with the added betrayal aspect.

ETA: Surely either David or Hannah's friends would be able to say whether they were friends, familiar with each other or even met that night? Nothing has really been said about what happened in the evening before the murders.

 

[gia2]

New, pics, cctv of David and Hannah's last moments seen alive..

"CCTV footage shows Hannah Witheridge enjoying a night out with friends, just hours before she was brutally murdered on a Thai beach.

Hannah, 23, was captured on video walking with a group of friends between bars on the island of Koh Tao last Sunday.

Thai police are also studying CCTV showing the final hours of David Miller, who was found dead alongside Hannah on the beach.

He is seen twice in the footage - once high fiving a mystery local man and on the second occasion he appears to be talking to an unknown Western couple"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-final-cctv-4291808#ixzz3DrwI4ThN
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

Sorry, I didn't see that you'd already posted the Mirror link when I posted it!

It's good that the CCTV is so much clearer than we usually see on here, and in colour too. Watching it makes me feel so horrible. Just watching these silent, blurred people happily going about their life, completely unaware that they are about to be subjected to an absolutely horrifc ordeal and only have hours left to live is so upsetting. It makes me want to scream at them to stay where they are and to stay safe. I can't imagine how terrible it is for their family to watch.

 

[Paulette]

Rohingya Migrants Suspected.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/rohinya-migrants-now-suspected-british-couples-death/

Burmese most likely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people#Religion

IMO, one must be very respectful in foreign countries. We know she shared a cigarette with someone that wasn't in her group. So for the moment, I'm going with a 3rd person blaming the victim for luring the acquaintance H was sharing the cig with into some kind of liaison. It was an over-the-top murder committed by a fanatic, probably a religious fanatic.

 

[gia2]

Rohingya Migrants Suspected.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/rohinya-migrants-now-suspected-british-couples-death/

Burmese most likely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people#Religion

IMO, one must be very respectful in foreign countries. We know she shared a cigarette with someone that wasn't in her group. So for the moment, I'm going with a 3rd person blaming the victim for luring the acquaintance H was sharing the cig with into some kind of liaison. It was an over-the-top murder committed by a fanatic, probably a religious fanatic.

We don't know that she shared a cigarette with someone, we only know her DNA was on the cigarette at this point.

 

[dotr]

Some random comments.. imo, speculation, first impressions, subject to change, ect..

Although they all look relaxed out on an evening adventure in an exotic locale, somehow H seems somewhat hesitant/ apprehensive imo, she falls behind dark haired girl and is walking at the outside of the group.

@ 0.07 who are those (3?) guys in yellow?
@ 0.12 that "3 pronged white finger-like image on motorcycle seems oddly like fore-shadowing..
@ 0.14 - 0.15 everyone, especially H turns to look at figure of heavyset individual w/ white stripe on shirt, walking past them.....at this point, one male in H's group has arms around the others..

@0.28 seems like a "stare-down" of sorts between H group and other group with blonde female, looks somewhat tough, black pants, shiny purse slung to left side....
Meanwhile, they all appear to look at H, who appears to be pulled a bit by her dark haired female companion , who then looks in purse, H seems hesitant...


@0.35 who is the male at taxi?

@0.44 Is that the same blond female in long black pants seen earlier with 2 males on cctv 0.28 ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2B0_L-qUKQ

 

[gia2]

I couldn't see footprints in the areas of Hannah and David whoch couldn't be explained away. The crime sceme seemed fairly open with not much preservation of the surrounding area. In one photo I have seen there were at least 10 police officers in the immediate vicinity of one of the bodies. Likewise in the leaked close up photo of Hannah you can see that the police did not use shoe covers or similar.

Also from the photo it looked like the ground in the area in which Hannah was found was very compact. In fact it could even be a hard stone.

Thanks very much for that. It's so hard to imagine police not securing the crime scene and wearing protective clothing!
Are you able to tell me the approximate locations of where the bodies were found in relation to the path where the bodies were moved to (for the plastic wrap to be secured around them). This is also the location of the flowers people are laying.

 

[ChuckieD]

Some random comments.. imo, speculation, first impressions, subject to change, ect..

Although they all look relaxed out on an evening adventure in an exotic locale, somehow H seems somewhat hesitant/ apprehensive imo, she falls behind dark haired girl and is walking at the outside of the group.

@ 0.07 who are those (3?) guys in yellow?
@ 0.12 that "3 pronged white finger-like image on motorcycle seems oddly like fore-shadowing..
@ 0.14 - 0.15 everyone, especially H turns to look at figure of heavyset individual w/ white stripe on shirt, walking past them.....at this point, one male in H's group has arms around the others..

@0.28 seems like a "stare-down" of sorts between H group and other group with blonde female, looks somewhat tough, black pants, shiny purse slung to left side....
Meanwhile, they all appear to look at H, who appears to be pulled a bit by her dark haired female companion , who then looks in purse, H seems hesitant...


@0.35 who is the male at taxi?

@0.44 Is that the same blond female in long black pants seen earlier with 2 males on cctv 0.28 ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2B0_L-qUKQ

That's definitely the same girl, imo. Not sure about the staredown though, looks to me like they're looking in the bar, maybe to see whether it's worth a visit - though she does seem to look back towards them and it seems like Hannah sort of bumped shoulders with the other girl as she stepped down off the pavement. Good spot though! In the second clip, those two girls appear to be with different men.
Who are the two males with Hannah? I thought she was travelling with three female friends.

 

[gia2]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2763277/Was-British-backpacker-trying-help-woman-distress-New-evidence-suggests-David-Miller-coming-aid-Hannah-Witheridge-killed.html
The article states that David is thought to have returned to the hotel at approximately 1am, but went back out to find Hannah.

Hannah was out that evening with her two British female friends and two British men. David's two friends (Christopher and James Ware) are thought to have been out with the two men earlier that night.

Also, the person running in the CCTV images might be a woman who discoverd the bodies.

Glad we are starting to get some information about the timeline of events that night.

 

[ChuckieD]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2763277/Was-British-backpacker-trying-help-woman-distress-New-evidence-suggests-David-Miller-coming-aid-Hannah-Witheridge-killed.html
The article states that David is thought to have returned to the hotel at approximately 1am, but went back out to find Hannah.

Specifically to find Hannah? Was it because they were supposed to meet or because he heard a commotion? Where has this info come from? This case is getting more confusing by the second.

 

[gia2]

Some important questions I hope we get some information about soon.

Under what circumstances was Hannah separated from the group she was with and at what time? (Did Hannah go back to the hotel earlier than her friends, only to be discovered missing when the friends got back?)

Why was David, specifically, out looking for Hannah that night?

He is reported to have gone back to the hotel at 1am, what time did he go back out again?

Who else was out looking for Hannah?

Did Hannah’s friends get worried and ask David’s group to help them find her? (Was David the only one of his group to be back at the hotel and so went out looking alone?)

 

[Lola68]

No, I think it’s just an assumption that they were together due to the fact they both ended up being killed that night at the same location. I wonder how well they got to know each other in the 3 days Hannah and her group of friends were on the island for before the attack.
The police must have a fairly accurate timeline of the evening/night based on Hannah and David's friends and probably a lot of other tourists as well in the area. That should inform them as to whether David and Hannah were together when attacked or not, I wonder why they’ve not clarified the timeline.
Some possible scenarios:
1. Hannah and David decided to walk back to the hotel together and were attacked
2. David’s path home took him very close to an attack occurring/just occurred on Hannah, he is unaware but attacked as well
3. Walking home David becomes aware of an attack on Hannah, tries to help and is attacked
4. David was already back in the hotel (his room looks directly out on to the area of the attack) when Hannah was attacked. He hears/sees what is happened and tries to help.
5. David and Hannah walked back to the hotel separately. Hannah was attacked first and the attackers remain at the scene for a short time afterwards. In that time David is walking home and attacked as well.

I think those are the main/most likely turn of events, any other suggestions?

Does anyone here have knowledge of the area or perhaps a detailed map which shows where the town, hotel and beach party location is?

If Hannah did share a cigarette with one of her attackers (i.e. DNA not transferred by saliva etc) this would discount the first theory - which I'm veering away from anyway as it was based on CCTV footage that turned out not to be David and Hannah. If she did share a cigarette, then this would suggest she knew her killer(s) or at least felt comfortable enough to stay with them to smoke. Could she have been on her way home on her own, fancied a cigarette, saw some locals smoking and asked them for one, and it went wrong when she turned down their advances? Which might explain the aggression that seemed to be directed at her in particular. And David came on the scene during/after the attack, was beaten unconscious and left to drown, then dragged closer to Hannah's body and stripped to make it look like they were together on the beach when it happened.


I agree the police must have a pretty detailed timeline of both of their whereabouts from their friends - the fact that they're not releasing this is significant I think. I remember reading somewhere that they had more information that they couldn't share with the media. But that could equally have been an excuse to deflect criticism that they've mishandled the investigation.

 

[Lola68]

I originally thought this was a crime of passion given the brutality of the attack on Hannah. When the suspects were identified as being asian I thought it might be more of an opportunistic attack - i.e. could have been any young woman. But to almost destroy her face - whilst leaving her body pretty much untouched - doesn't really fit a random attack - or at least, suggests that the way she looked (pretty blonde caucasian) was a significant factor in the aggressiveness of her murder. JIMO

 

[ChuckieD]

How long was it between estimated time of death and when they were found? I'm sure I read earlier on it was around 18 hours but that doesn't really make any sense.