The accusation that TH tried to abduct the baby

[Donjeta]

The stepson she raised as her own has gone missing without a trace. Now her husband has taken her baby away, and they are gone without a trace. I think she'd be more than a little agitated.

Kyron was gone without a trace, possibly dead, but she seems to have been operating on the assumption that the baby is with her father and well enough to attend daycare at gym.

 

[Calliope]

I agree that it was legal for her to ask questions about her baby. It was legal for her to be with her baby.

It's just a bit hard to understand why poor Terri did nothing wrong by attempting to be with her baby because she has all the rights to be with her since there was no RO against her at that time and why she had her baby abducted from her in a cruel and terrifying manner (mind you, she seems to expect that the baby is alive and safe with her father, not gone like Kyron was)

But Kaine had no RO against him either to prevent him from being with his baby and somehow he is a terrifying child abductor for trying to be with his baby that he had all the rights to be with.

He did the right thing, imo, if he really had a reason to believe that Terri might be a danger to him or to the children. And if she is a danger to her child she shouldn't be near her, legal or not, unless supervised. :cow:

If it is a misunderstanding and she is just a mother missing her child then I hope the RO is lifted and they arrive at a custody agreement soon.

bbm

I don't think I said that; I said I know what it's like to have your husband steal your baby away, and that it's terrifying. I don't think Kaine did anything wrong, but from Terri's point of view, he did "steal' her away. I do think he did what was best for the baby, yet I also have some inkling of the emotions Terri may have been experiencing not knowing where her child was.

 

[Calliope]

Kyron was gone without a trace, possibly dead, but she seems to have been operating on the assumption that the baby is with her father and well enough to attend daycare at gym.

Possibly, or maybe just going to all the places she knew Kaine frequented, hoping to find out if he'd been there and asking to be notified if he showed up with baby.

 

[Calliope]

Forgive me if this has been answered, but I am not able to read the entire thread right now. Do we know what time of day Terri made this visit to the gym? Could it possibly have been after she was served? I mean, my gym is open until 11 pm.

The affidavit says this happened prior to service.

 

[Donjeta]

bbm

I don't think I said that; I said I know what it's like to have your husband steal your baby away, and that it's terrifying. I do think he did what was best for the baby, yet I do have some inkling of the emotions Terri may have been experiencing not knowing where her child was.

I do believe she may have been upset but IMO it can't be compared to what was felt when Kyron disappeared since there appears to be no reason for Terri to fear she's been hurt, (unless we hear something different at the hearing next week).

By the reports her 911 call about the child was classified as a custody issue, not a missing child case so apparently she knew who the baby was with.

 

[Calliope]

I do believe she may have been upset but IMO it can't be compared to what was felt when Kyron disappeared since there appears to be no reason for Terri to fear she's been hurt, (unless we hear something different at the hearing next week).

I agree. I should clarify; what I meant was she has one child disappear, then another. If she is innocent (or truly believes she is for whatever reason), I can see her getting frantic at the thought of the loss of another child. I didn't mean that Kyron's circumstances were similar to baby K's.

did that make sense?

 

[Donjeta]

Possibly, or maybe just going to all the places she knew Kaine frequented, hoping to find out if he'd been there and asking to be notified if he showed up with baby.

You think she feared that Kaine had hurt the baby? Wouldn't she have made more of an effort to get the search and rescue operation going if it was a real concern? A BOLO out to all units, Amber alert, a father has kidnapped a baby and she is deemed to be in great danger because there is already another missing child in the family within a month, this is the vehicle and suspect description?

 

[Calliope]

You think she feared that Kaine had hurt the baby? Wouldn't she have made more of an effort to get the search and rescue operation going if it was a real concern? A BOLO out to all units, Amber alert, a father has kidnapped a baby and she is deemed to be in great danger because there is already another missing child in the family within a month, this is the vehicle and suspect description?

No, I don't.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Granted and served are two very different things. They could have granted the RO on 6/26 but it was not served until 6/28. How could anyone violate an RO they knew nothing about until it was served?

I'm having more than a little trouble keeping track of all the details of this case! I just looked up the restraining order document and it's stamped 4:39 PM on June 28. It was certainly in the works before then, but couldn't possibly have been served much before 5PM on June 28 if it was stamped as filed at 4:39. It doesn't help clarify matters that the new filing alleging violation of the RO says Terri made this inquiry/request at the gym "on or about June 28". Not knowing for sure what *date* it happened, much less what time, makes it pretty hard to say if she had or hadn't been served with the RO yet. Not plausible IMO that she wasn't already expecting something along those lines, though, even if it hadn't been served. Kaine, his attorneys, and police, may know that she was given advance notice that the RO was being requested, and if so, even if this incident at the gym was before she was actually served, it would have appeared to be a deliberate attempt to head off the RO.

Unless Terri said a lot more at the gym than is being reported, OR unless the gym's management had been notified by police that they should call if Terri attempted to make any contact with Kaine or Baby K at the gym, I can't imagine why the gym manager would have called police about her visit/request, if the RO (which specifically included the gym, and thus would have been notified immediately when it was issued) hadn't been issued/served yet. If an established member of a gym comes in asking if her husband is there, and when told he isn't, asked the clerk to call her if he comes in, that wouldn't normally prompt the management to call police. And if the gym management knew at that point that police were supposed to be notified if Terri tried to make contact with Kaine or the baby there, then I expect Terri also knew full well she wasn't supposed to be doing this.

Even if was Kaine's lawyers who originally notified the gym (probably standard lawyer practice, with a business that was about to be specifically named in a filing for an emergency RO), I would think the gym management would have confirmed with police at that point what was really going on. If only for the sake of the security of the staff and other gym members, if I'm a gym manager/owner and get a call from a member's lawyer that the gym will be named in an emergency RO request against the member's wife, I'm going to be wanting some information from LE immediately about what's going on, and whether there's any reason to put extra security measures in place (i.e. do they think this woman might come and shoot up the place).

Terri made the 911 call re a "custody issue" on June 26, and there had to have been some law enforcement response to that call. I seriously doubt police responded by showing up and taking a report and pretending not to know that Kaine had taken the baby and left, because that would very likely have resulted in Terri contacting the media to claim Baby K was now "missing" too, and the need for awkward LE explanations to the media ("Well, the baby's not actually missing because we, um, actually advised Kaine to take the baby for her and his own safety," or alternatively, their favorite "No comment", which would have set off a frenzy of media attempts to locate Baby K). So I think in all likelihood, she was told some time on June 26 that police were well aware that Kaine had taken the baby and moved out, and that she should not attempt to locate them until further notice from LE or a court. And then she went and attempted to locate them at the gym . . .

 

[Donjeta]

I agree. I should clarify; what I meant was she has one child disappear, then another. If she is innocent (or truly believes she is for whatever reason), I can see her getting frantic at the thought of the loss of another child. I didn't mean that Kyron's circumstances were similar to baby K's.

did that make sense?

Yes it does.

I actually think she may have been upset about her own child regardless of her level of involvement in Kyron's case. She might have separated the children in different "compartments" in her mind, so to speak. Besides the motherly love and longing for the child, a spouse leaving with the children may cause emotional turmoil on other levels. Issues with control (he's winning...), maybe fear as his leaving may have indicated the house of cards might go down shortly, all the legal wrangling... Oh and she allegedly started a new relationship at the time as well. It was a huge turmoil for her, I bet.

 

[debs]

Kaine had every right to take the baby away and file for an RO against Terri. IMO, he should have filed not only for himself but on behalf of the baby too since we now know she was with Terri that morning, and he claims to have probable cause to believe Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance.

That said, until the point where Terri was served with the RO prohibiting her any contact with the baby, I don't fault her at all for doing all she could to locate the child and try to get her back.

One could almost argue the point that Kaine, in his distress over Kyron's disappearance, chose to use baby K as a means to cause Terri to feel even minutely what it is he feels with his son missing, in short using his own daughter as a tool by which to cause pain to her mother. Could almost argue.

 

[Calliope]

I'm having more than a little trouble keeping track of all the details of this case! I just looked up the restraining order document and it's stamped 4:39 PM on June 28. It was certainly in the works before then, but couldn't possibly have been served much before 5PM on June 28 if it was stamped as filed at 4:39. It doesn't help clarify matters that the new filing alleging violation of the RO says Terri made this inquiry/request at the gym "on or about June 28". Not knowing for sure what *date* it happened, much less what time, makes it pretty hard to say if she had or hadn't been served with the RO yet. Not plausible IMO that she wasn't already expecting something along those lines, though, even if it hadn't been served. Kaine, his attorneys, and police, may know that she was given advance notice that the RO was being requested, and if so, even if this incident at the gym was before she was actually served, it would have appeared to be a deliberate attempt to head off the RO.

Kaine didn't even sign the petition for the RO until the 28th. I have no idea who would have given her a heads up unless it was Michael. I hope Kaine was smart enough to keep his plans to himself, but in this case I remain amazed at how the major players seem to be clueless.

Unless Terri said a lot more at the gym than is being reported, OR unless the gym's management had been notified by police that they should call if Terri attempted to make any contact with Kaine or Baby K at the gym, I can't imagine why the gym manager would have called police about her visit/request, if the RO (which specifically included the gym, and thus would have been notified immediately when it was issued) hadn't been issued/served yet.

The news broke shortly after 5; I wonder when the police were called? Could it have been after it was reported there was a RO in the works? Or if Kaine had showed up and was told what happened and asked they call the police?

If an established member of a gym comes in asking if her husband is there, and when told he isn't, asked the clerk to call her if he comes in, that wouldn't normally prompt the management to call police. And if the gym management knew at that point that police were supposed to be notified if Terri tried to make contact with Kaine or the baby there, then I expect Terri also knew full well she wasn't supposed to be doing this.

Even if was Kaine's lawyers who originally notified the gym (probably standard lawyer practice, with a business that was about to be specifically named in a filing for an emergency RO), I would think the gym management would have confirmed with police at that point what was really going on. If only for the sake of the security of the staff and other gym members, if I'm a gym manager/owner and get a call from a member's lawyer that the gym will be named in an emergency RO request against the member's wife, I'm going to be wanting some information from LE immediately about what's going on, and whether there's any reason to put extra security measures in place (i.e. do they think this woman might come and shoot up the place).

Terri made the 911 call re a "custody issue" on June 26, and there had to have been some law enforcement response to that call. I seriously doubt police responded by showing up and taking a report and pretending not to know that Kaine had taken the baby and left, because that would very likely have resulted in Terri contacting the media to claim Baby K was now "missing" too, and the need for awkward LE explanations to the media ("Well, the baby's not actually missing because we, um, actually advised Kaine to take the baby for her and his own safety," or alternatively, their favorite "No comment", which would have set off a frenzy of media attempts to locate Baby K). So I think in all likelihood, she was told some time on June 26 that police were well aware that Kaine had taken the baby and moved out, and that she should not attempt to locate them until further notice from LE or a court. And then she went and attempted to locate them at the gym . . .

I'm not so sure the police can do such a thing without a court order in effect.

And you bring up a good point; perhaps the attorney or Kaine told the gym they were going to be part of the RO, and the gym manager jumped the gun, so to speak.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Interesting. I bet he read her the riot act and set down some strict ground rules.

It will also be interesting to see how he dances around Kyron's disappearance as he defends her on the contempt charge.

I can't begin to fathom why this attorney is still working for Terri. By all reports, he's a very well-respected attorney, so not exactly desperate for clients, and is also publicity shy (so presumably not doing this in an attempt to join the ranks of tabloid-TV-star attorneys). And he's not doing it for the money, because she doesn't have any and isn't likely to.

The only thing I can think of is that he's pegged this as a complex and legally significant case revolving around post-partum psychosis, and the degree of responsibility to which a sufferer can be held for otherwise criminal acts, and perhaps also the degree of responsibility to which a spouse can be held for not acting on clear signs of post-partum psychosis by urgently seeking medical attention for the sufferer. But it appears to me that if post-partum psychosis is the explanation for her actions (including any involvement in Kyron's disappearance), then she's still in full-blown psychosis, and thus not likely to be agreeing to representation by an attorney who's proposing to use this as the basis for her defense. And there would be some serious ethical issues with an attorney misleading a client as to how he intends to approach her defense in a criminal case.

Very puzzling. I guess we'll find out eventually.

 

[grandmaj]

Here is the legal definition of Law Enforcement Officer.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/l/law-enforcement-officer/

A law enforcement officer is a government employee who is responsible for the prevention, investigation, apprehension, or detention of individuals suspected or convicted of offenses against the criminal laws, including an employee engaged in this activity who is transferred to a supervisory or administrative position; or serving as a probation or pretrial services officer.

Federal law enforcement agents have duties similar to those of local police officers. These agents enforce the law, investigate crimes, preserve evidence, write reports for government prosecutors, apprehend fugitives, and testify in court. However, federal agents deal with specialized types of federal crimes throughout the United States.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/l/law-enforcement-officer/

The filing stated Law Enforcement provided the information to Kaine. In a court filing the Attorney would have to be exact as to who provided the information.

 

[Donjeta]

I don't see what would prevent LE from unofficially advising an individual to act or not to act in a certain way; it just wouldn't be legally binding without a court order.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

I totally agree. Absent the restraining order she has every right to walk into that daycare and take her daughter. Taking her daughter from the gym day care before the issuance of the RO would not have been a violation of any law. If anything, it was KH who arguably violated the custodial interference laws by taking the baby away from TH for several days before the RO was issued.[/QUOTE]

Except that Kaine had been advised by LE to do that. And most likely, LE had already notified child welfare officials about this advice -- they're probably legally required to do so when they have reason to believe a custodial parent poses a serious danger to a child, even if they're not advising another custodial parent to take the child away. At any rate, removing your own child that you have custody of, from its other custodial parent, is not illegal at all. It's only illegal if you don't bring the child back when a court orders you to.

 

[Calliope]

I can't begin to fathom why this attorney is still working for Terri. By all reports, he's a very well-respected attorney, so not exactly desperate for clients, and is also publicity shy (so presumably not doing this in an attempt to join the ranks of tabloid-TV-star attorneys). And he's not doing it for the money, because she doesn't have any and isn't likely to.

The only thing I can think of is that he's pegged this as a complex and legally significant case revolving around post-partum psychosis, and the degree of responsibility to which a sufferer can be held for otherwise criminal acts, and perhaps also the degree of responsibility to which a spouse can be held for not acting on clear signs of post-partum psychosis by urgently seeking medical attention for the sufferer. But it appears to me that if post-partum psychosis is the explanation for her actions (including any involvement in Kyron's disappearance), then she's still in full-blown psychosis, and thus not likely to be agreeing to representation by an attorney who's proposing to use this as the basis for her defense. And there would be some serious ethical issues with an attorney misleading a client as to how he intends to approach her defense in a criminal case.

Very puzzling. I guess we'll find out eventually.

I think he's at the point in his career where he doesn't have to work, and can take on challenging cases. A sort of mental exercise, if you will.

 

[LadyL]

IF TMH intended to pick up baby K from the gym (has not been proven), that really says nothing more about her than KH's actions say about him.

That's essentially what KH did to TMH: waited until she was out of the way, then grabbed baby K and took off for an undisclosed location. He didn't have a RO at that time, he hadn't even filed for one at that point.

KH's new address could not be concealed on the copy of the RO that was served to TMH; how else is she know what address(es) to avoid? Otherwise she could be innocently driving down a street and be arrested for unknowingly coming within 500 feet of his new location.

[bbm]

we don't know any of the details of those circumstances

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Research indicates that even children who have been removed from their parents' home due to abuse do better if they are allowed regular supervised contact with their parents.

That assumes the parent(s) doesn't kill the child, which occasionally happens even in a supervised contact situation. I think LE viewed that as a very real possibility in this case, given the circumstances of Kyron's disappearance.

I don't know if this applies to a 20 month old child, though.

The removal/no visitation is unlikely to have any lasting effect on Baby K, because she's so young (to young to retain any conscious memories of this period) and is remaining in the regular care of one of her parents who's been a caregiver since she was born. There is continuity of care by a caregiver to whom the baby is solidly attached.

If Baby K suffers any lasting harm from this whole mess, it will be due to later awareness of what happened -- not the removal/no visitation, but rather growing up with the knowledge of her mother's possible/probable involvement in the disappearance of her half brother (which may or may not ever be proven to be the case), and also possibly effects from the inevitable impact this will have on Kaine and his psychological health and parenting habits. For example, it would be very understandable if he became an extremely overprotective parent to Baby K, to the extent that it could adversely impact her normal progression towards greater independence.

 

[LadyL]

It's a big deal because she may have abducted another child in her care. It's a big deal because she's demonstrated poor decision making, poor boundaries, the willingness to lie and manipulate and possible the desire to conspire to murder. I think that makes almost anything she does to/with vulnerable children a very big deal.



Isolating a child from another parent is only appropriate *if you have reason to believe your child is in danger from the other parent* - Kaine DID have reason to believe that. Terri did not. The same act can have very different meanings depending on your motive and intentions. A woman picking her child up from daycare is NORMALLY not a big deal. When the woman is allegedly a danger to her family, it IS a big deal.

For arguments' sake, let's pose that TH actually kidnapped Kyron from school that day. While she was removing him from the school and putting him into her truck, was she legally doing anything wrong? No. It was her (alleged) intention that would have separated her actions from any other sane parent removing their child early from school. Was TH legally doing anything wrong by trying to take baby K from the gym daycare? No. But how can any of us say that this woman definitely had no evil intent? How can we say she was not trying to abduct the baby? We simply don't know.

Repeatedly making the point that the RO wasn't handed to her yet doesn't mean she wasn't doing anything wrong. Again, IF she kidnapped Kyron, the moment she walked out of the school with him she wouldn't have been doing anything legally wrong, either, yet it would have been the point of no return for that child. I for one have no problem keeping an open mind that baby K COULD have been in danger and needed MORE protection than an average child needs from their mother.

very well-said

thanks button wasn't enough