the argument between Patsy and JonBenet

[Jayelles]

But JonBenet obviously wet herself very often during daytime too, which imo is an a far more serious issue, for it is highly unusual for a six-year-old to wet herself so much during daytime. According to Pam Griffin, Patsy told her that JB's infections were hard to treat because her underpants were always wet. This child was in deep trouble imo.

I disagree. My son wasn't a bedwetter, but he did have occasional daytime accidents - several times came home from school in borrowed clothes. The reason? He was an over-exuberent child who hated to leave a game with his pals to go to the toilet and he would end up getting caught short.

It used to drive me nuts! Besides, there is absolutely no suggestion that JonBenet did this on any kind of regular basis. Nedra referred to Fleet White coming home a couple of times carrying JonBenet's wet underwear, but we don't know what age she was when this happened.

I don't think it's a big issue at all. As a teacher, I know that kids have accidents for all kinds of benign reasons. A friend of mine once peed the floor at school at age 7/8 when we had a terrifying substitute teacher. She was too shy to ask to go out to the toilet and thought she could hold on. The experience traumatised her and she still brings it up 35 years later!

 

[rashomon]

I disagree. My son wasn't a bedwetter, but he did have occasional daytime accidents - several times came home from school in borrowed clothes. The reason? He was an over-exuberent child who hated to leave a game with his pals to go to the toilet and he would end up getting caught short.

It used to drive me nuts! Besides, there is absolutely no suggestion that JonBenet did this on any kind of regular basis. Nedra referred to Fleet White coming home a couple of times carrying JonBenet's wet underwear, but we don't know what age she was when this happened.

I don't think it's a big issue at all. As a teacher, I know that kids have accidents for all kinds of benign reasons. A friend of mine once peed the floor at school at age 7/8 when we had a terrifying substitute teacher. She was too shy to ask to go out to the toilet and thought she could hold on. The experience traumatised her and she still brings it up 35 years later!

I'm a teacher too (kindergarten), and it was Pam Griffin's statement that Patsy told her JB's underpants were always wet which raised a red flag for me. Underpants being always wet would point to a child who wet herself very often during daytime. So it seems that JB suffered from both chronic enuresis nocturna and diurna. I do think this is an issue which ought to be looked into.

 

[narlacat]

<<Patsy snapped. Patsy snapped. People do snap.>>

But how long do they 'snap' for?
'Snap' suggests momentarily, it didnt take a moment to strangle JBR, it took quite a few minutes.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy was under tremendous stress that Christmas night. She had to finish packing for three trips....finish wrapping presents for the trip to Charlevoix. Earlier in the evening Patsy and JonBenet had butted heads over what to wear to the Whites. When Patsy woke JonBenet to use the potty, JonBenet was not having none of that. Patsy snapped and grabbed the first thing she saw....the flashlight.

Patsy snapped. Patsy snapped. People do snap.

Why the staging? It's simple. Self-preservation. What would she tell hospital personnel? I got angry and hit my daughter over the head?

Toltec,

All seems feasible, but the potty and flashlight may never have occurred, maybe Patsy or John used the flashlight to explore the basement, maybe after whomever strangled JonBenet simply let her go, arms and hands tired, and JonBenet's head hits the floor cracking her skull.

It would be nice to be able to eliminate some claims so we could make more progress here.


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[UKGuy]

I'm a teacher too (kindergarten), and it was Pam Griffin's statement that Patsy told her JB's underpants were always wet which raised a red flag for me. Underpants being always wet would point to a child who wet herself very often during daytime. So it seems that JB suffered from both chronic enuresis nocturna and diurna. I do think this is an issue which ought to be looked into.

rashomon,

I think its on record that JonBenet's toilet hygiene regressed due to patsy dealing with her cancer.

Do you think JonBenet may have been suffering from pageant or abuse induced stress that caused her to wet herself.

IN PMPT Lawrence Schiller suggests JonBenet has boundary issues as she would ask people to wipe her down.

Would this result from innapropriate behaviour or occur occassionally in a girl of her age?

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[Jayelles]

I'm a teacher too (kindergarten), and it was Pam Griffin's statement that Patsy told her JB's underpants were always wet which raised a red flag for me. Underpants being always wet would point to a child who wet herself very often during daytime. So it seems that JB suffered from both chronic enuresis nocturna and diurna. I do think this is an issue which ought to be looked into.

Always doesn't always mean always to a drama queen! Something could happen twice and a drama queen would say "Oh you're ALWAYS doing that..."/

 

[rashomon]

Always doesn't always mean always to a drama queen! Something could happen twice and a drama queen would say "Oh you're ALWAYS doing that..."/

Does there exist any testimony that Pam Griffin was a drama queen?
But even if we leave what she said aside, quite a few people have commented on JB's frequent bed- and daytime wetting, and also that she didn't wipe herself properly after a bowel movement, but often called others to wipe and clean her. This is also an unusual behavior for a six-year-old child.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

I think its on record that JonBenet's toilet hygiene regressed due to patsy dealing with her cancer.

Do you think JonBenet may have been suffering from pageant or abuse induced stress that caused her to wet herself.

IN PMPT Lawrence Schiller suggests JonBenet has boundary issues as she would ask people to wipe her down.

Would this result from innapropriate behaviour or occur occassionally in a girl of her age?

Very interesting points, UKGuy. If we take all this into account, it seems that JB's bedwetting problems had more psychological than physical causes. Regress in toilet hygiene due to Patsy's cancer illness could explain it in part, but this would not be enough to explain the boundary issues JB obviously had. JB would ask others to wipe and clean her after a bowel movement; this is a highly unusual behavior for a six-year-old child, for children at that age normally want their intimate privacy respected when it comes to toilet hygiene. A behavior which JB showed is definitely not age-adequate and should raise a red flag.
I think it could indeed be a result of pageant-induced stress; imo pageants in which little girls are dressed-up like precocious Lolitas are a form of child abuse. Teaching your child sexualized performance is definitely overstepping boundaries.
And if it is true that she was also the victim of physical sexual abuse (the erosion of her hymen points in that direction), then her boundaries had not been respected either. I think JB's 'boundary issue' which L. Schiller mentioned is a crucial point. Her behavior could indeed reflect what had been done to her.

 

[Jayelles]

Does there exist any testimony that Pam Griffin was a drama queen?
But even if we leave what she said aside, quite a few people have commented on JB's frequent bed- and daytime wetting, and also that she didn't wipe herself properly after a bowel movement, but often called others to wipe and clean her. This is also an unusual behavior for a six-year-old child.

Well I think she's an estate agent now - are estate agent's drama queens?

We don't know that she was 6 years old when she called others to wipe her - we just know that she had done it at some point. She may have been 3 or 4 when that happened.

Here in the UK, it's not unusual for a child of school age to be unable to wipe their own b-t and I believe it;s one of the questions asked when a child starts nursery at 4/5 whether they can wipe themselves.

Don't you think a child who was being abused would be more reluctant to be wiped? I think if Jonbenet was happy for any adult to come and wipe her that this is a sign that she WASN'T being abused.

 

[Toltec]

<<Patsy snapped. Patsy snapped. People do snap.>>

But how long do they 'snap' for?
'Snap' suggests momentarily, it didnt take a moment to strangle JBR, it took quite a few minutes.

They snap....a response that can take but a second...that is why I believe Patsy hit JonBenet over the head. You do not have to be in that state of mind when staging a crime, like the strangulation. JonBenet was unconcious when the cord was placed around her neck. She had her hair and necklace entangled in the cord and anyone who has had their hair pulled at the nape of the neck knows how painful that is. JonBenet would have been putting up a heck of a fight if she were concious.

The head bash came first.

 

[UKGuy]

They snap....a response that can take but a second...that is why I believe Patsy hit JonBenet over the head. You do not have to be in that state of mind when staging a crime, like the strangulation. JonBenet was unconcious when the cord was placed around her neck. She had her hair and necklace entangled in the cord and anyone who has had their hair pulled at the nape of the neck knows how painful that is. JonBenet would have been putting up a heck of a fight if she were concious.

The head bash came first.

Toltec,

Why would a head bash require the multiple stagings involving redressing, sexual assault and the application of a garrote, and fake ransom notes?

I can think of simpler scenarios to explain away an accidental fall that might kill someone?

Head bashing then assaults are the Ted Bundy predator style, JonBenet was a 6-year old girl, already contained within the house, so restraint by head bashing is not needed.

JonBenet has abrasions on her neck that do not correspond with any ligature markings, but would match that of a manual strangulation.


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[sissi]

If that is so, the manual strangulation did NO damage, and the person had to resort to garotting to "get the job done". The marks were likely ,IMO, defense wounds, an effort by Jonbenet to remove the garotte.

 

[rashomon]

We don't know that she was 6 years old when she called others to wipe her - we just know that she had done it at some point. She may have been 3 or 4 when that happened.

Here in the UK, it's not unusual for a child of school age to be unable to wipe their own b-t and I believe it;s one of the questions asked when a child starts nursery at 4/5 whether they can wipe themselves.

Don't you think a child who was being abused would be more reluctant to be wiped? I think if Jonbenet was happy for any adult to come and wipe her that this is a sign that she WASN'T being abused.

Of course no one would expect from a child of that age to always wipe herself perfectly clean, but it seems that JB did not wipe herself at all but merely called for others to wipe her, like a two-year-old would have. And I don't have the impression that the people who commented on it were referring to a period when she was 3 or 4, but to a more recent period.

In terms of abused children and boundaries: in general abused children do have boundary issues, and these boundary issues can show themselves in different form. On can say that they either build too many boundaries around them or too few.
I once had a little boy in my group who had been abused by his father. When he was new in kindergarten, this boy for weeks refused to take his jacket and his cap off, because he needed them as protective shields. Once when I touched him by the shoulder because I wanted to point out something to him in the garden, he froze in horror, and I realized he thought I was going to hit him, like he had experienced it so often with his father. This was a really heartbreaking moment for me.
This poor kid's behavior would be an example for 'too many boundaries'.
But it is interesting that the opposite can also happen, and that abused children show 'too few boundaries': they e. g. approach strangers and cuddle up to them, or show sexualized behavior. Didn't one of the Ramseys' friends (I forgot who it was) who hadn't seen JB for a while comment that she was quite shocked about JB showing 'sexualized' behavior?

 

[Jayelles]

Of course no one would expect from a child of that age to always wipe herself perfectly clean, but it seems that JB did not wipe herself at all but merely called for others to wipe her, like a two-year-old would have. And I don't have the impression that the people who commented on it were referring to a period when she was 3 or 4, but to a more recent period.

.... but we don't know for certain what age she was when she asked people to wipe her. That is an important point.All we have is hearsay.

In terms of abused children and boundaries: in general abused children do have boundary issues, and these boundary issues can show themselves in different form. On can say that they either build too many boundaries around them or too few.
I once had a little boy in my group who had been abused by his father. When he was new in kindergarten, this boy for weeks refused to take his jacket and his cap off, because he needed them as protective shields. Once when I touched him by the shoulder because I wanted to point out something to him in the garden, he froze in horror, and I realized he thought I was going to hit him, like he had experienced it so often with his father. This was a really heartbreaking moment for me.
This poor kid's behavior would be an example for 'too many boundaries'.
But it is interesting that the opposite can also happen, and that abused children show 'too few boundaries': they e. g. approach strangers and cuddle up to them, or show sexualized behavior. Didn't one of the Ramseys' friends (I forgot who it was) who hadn't seen JB for a while comment that she was quite shocked about JB showing 'sexualized' behavior?

And this is precisely the oppposite behaviour that we have discussed above. Had JonBenet been abused - would she have been happy for *anyone* to wipe her?

IMO, it doesn't fit. I don't think she was abused - certainly not long term. I am open minded about whether she was abused on 23rd. The autopsy evidence seems to suggest she might have been - and that could have been a motive for her murder.

 

[rashomon]

.... but we don't know for certain what age she was when she asked people to wipe her. That is an important point.All we have is hearsay.

And this is precisely the oppposite behaviour that we have discussed above. Had JonBenet been abused - would she have been happy for *anyone* to wipe her?

IMO, it doesn't fit. I don't think she was abused - certainly not long term. I am open minded about whether she was abused on 23rd. The autopsy evidence seems to suggest she might have been - and that could have been a motive for her murder.

I think it would fit in case JB belonged to that group of children which show 'too little boundaries' after being exposed to chronic abuse. I also find the woman's statement interesting (I can't remember who it was at the moment) who felt disturbed when seeing how 'sexualized' JB behaved.
And didn't the majority of medical experts agree that JB had suffered from chronic sexual abuse (among them Dr. McCann, a world-renowned expert)?

 

[sharpar]

IMO, it doesn't fit. I don't think she was abused - certainly not long term. I am open minded about whether she was abused on 23rd. The autopsy evidence seems to suggest she might have been - and that could have been a motive for her murder.[/QUOTE]

She might have asked others for assistance instead of her parental abuser.
Asking others in my opinion is a good indicator that she didnt want her mother
attending to her.

 

[Toltec]

Toltec,

Why would a head bash require the multiple stagings involving redressing, sexual assault and the application of a garrote, and fake ransom notes?

I can think of simpler scenarios to explain away an accidental fall that might kill someone?

Head bashing then assaults are the Ted Bundy predator style, JonBenet was a 6-year old girl, already contained within the house, so restraint by head bashing is not needed.

JonBenet has abrasions on her neck that do not correspond with any ligature markings, but would match that of a manual strangulation.


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Medical personnel would not believe that JonBenet suffered an accidental fall...and would be required by law to call Police in such an instance.

Sooner or later the "accidental fall" would be ruled out and Patsy would have been arrested. Patsy knew that so she set up an elaborate kidnapping/sexual assault/murder to explain a dead child in the basement.

 

[UKGuy]

Medical personnel would not believe that JonBenet suffered an accidental fall...and would be required by law to call Police in such an instance.

Sooner or later the "accidental fall" would be ruled out and Patsy would have been arrested. Patsy knew that so she set up an elaborate kidnapping/sexual assault/murder to explain a dead child in the basement.

Toltec,

Sure but if JonBenet is dead who can contradict her?

There is no forensic evidence, no staging required.

Why add to the risk of being accused or revealed as the killer by a ridiculous intruder staging complete with a sexual assault, and asphyxiation garrote.

It just does not add up.


JonBenet was manually strangled then the head trauma followed, with her killer probably not knowing she had suffered a serious head injury, bear in mind, neither did Dr John Meyer from an external examination!

Also you dont accidently manually strangle your own daughter.

The staging and the ransom note tells us there was a change of plan, so other considerations for the disposal of JonBenet's corpse were intended, and the forensic evidence may have been different to that found in the wine-cellar.

There is much more to this than appears evident.


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[Jayelles]

Toltec,

Sure but if JonBenet is dead who can contradict her?

There is no forensic evidence, no staging required.

Why add to the risk of being accused or revealed as the killer by a ridiculous intruder staging complete with a sexual assault, and asphyxiation garrote.

It just does not add up.


JonBenet was manually strangled then the head trauma followed, with her killer probably not knowing she had suffered a serious head injury, bear in mind, neither did Dr John Meyer from an external examination!

Also you dont accidently manually strangle your own daughter.

The staging and the ransom note tells us there was a change of plan, so other considerations for the disposal of JonBenet's corpse were intended, and the forensic evidence may have been different to that found in the wine-cellar.

There is much more to this than appears evident.


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Strangulation can occur manually and unintentionally through rough handling. One scenario which has been discussed was that jonbenet was grabbed roughly by the neck of her top and that it was twisted causing her to pass out. In this scenario, the triangular abrasion on her neck was caused by the assailant's knuckle against her neck.

 

[UKGuy]

Strangulation can occur manually and unintentionally through rough handling. One scenario which has been discussed was that jonbenet was grabbed roughly by the neck of her top and that it was twisted causing her to pass out. In this scenario, the triangular abrasion on her neck was caused by the assailant's knuckle against her neck.

Jayelles,

This is possible, but the time taken to complete the asphyxiation until she expires includes the time that her killer had the opportunity to note that JonBenet was lapsing into unconsciousness followed by which there is a possible further degree of violence where she is cast aside and her head hits some household object.

All of this imo does not add up to an unintentional homicide motivated entirely by rage, I dont completely exclude some kind of unintentional homicide, currently imo the forensic evidence suggests it was intentional.


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