the argument between Patsy and JonBenet

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

This is possible, but the time taken to complete the asphyxiation until she expires includes the time that her killer had the opportunity to note that JonBenet was lapsing into unconsciousness followed by which there is a possible further degree of violence where she is cast aside and her head hits some household object.

All of this imo does not add up to an unintentional homicide motivated entirely by rage, I dont completely exclude some kind of unintentional homicide, currently imo the forensic evidence suggests it was intentional.


.

Oh I absolutely agree that it was intentional. I think her killer hated her.

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE<< I see you did not include the first part of my post. Lets discuss that ... do you think Patsy would voluntarily bring up the fact that she and JB had a riff,if it was that riff that precipitated Patsy to accidentally bash JonBenet's skull? I don't think so>>


She may have if she thought someone else might bring it up.
She may have mentioned it to someone at the party.

 

[Rupert]

Jayelles,

This is possible, but the time taken to complete the asphyxiation until she expires includes the time that her killer had the opportunity to note that JonBenet was lapsing into unconsciousness followed by which there is a possible further degree of violence where she is cast aside and her head hits some household object.

All of this imo does not add up to an unintentional homicide motivated entirely by rage, I dont completely exclude some kind of unintentional homicide, currently imo the forensic evidence suggests it was intentional.


.

What did Sherlock say?.... Once you eliminate all of the ... all that remains is the plausible, however .....

The facts say it was intentional strangulation followed with a good bashing. Oh, I'm so sorry, "we didn't mean for this to happen". You know, it was like something purple. Something was brewing; however illogical to us, it was there.

If it was my daughter, the killer would be roasting in hell.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Oh I absolutely agree that it was intentional. I think her killer hated her.

I don't know about hate...I think her killer was extremely jealous and resentful of JonBenet, and when it washed over her in a flood Christmas night, she came out of it to see her daughter dead in front of her.

Just who do you think the killer is, jayelles?

 

[Jayelles]

I don't know about hate...I think her killer was extremely jealous and resentful of JonBenet, and when it washed over her in a flood Christmas night, she came out of it to see her daughter dead in front of her.

Just who do you think the killer is, jayelles?

Someone who wanted to get closer to Patsy and who felt that JonBenet got in the way.

 

[aussiesheila]

The bash on the head came first....the strangulation was staging.

This cannot be so, it is refuted by the autopsy evidence.

 

[rashomon]

Oh I absolutely agree that it was intentional. I think her killer hated her.

Who do you think was her killer? Why did the killer hate JonBenet?

 

[Jayelles]

Who do you think was her killer? Why did the killer hate JonBenet?

see post #85.

I think hate/jealousy had to be present.

 

[rashomon]

Who do you think was her killer? Why did the killer hate JonBenet?

see post #85.

post #85:

Someone who wanted to get closer to Patsy and who felt that JonBenet got in the way.

I think hate/jealousy had to be present.

Jayelles, could you be more specific as to who you think the killer was, and simply name the person?

 

[narlacat]

Jayelles posted a fairy tale not so long back, go back through the threads and you will see it.
A fairy tale for you I think the thread was called.
But, I'll give you a hint here....
SS.

 

[capps]

see post #85.

I think hate/jealousy had to be present.

Jayelles,

I know who you are referring to ... this person is one of two people I always thought was suspicious.If not a participant,at best this person knows some things that many people don't,and could probably help solve the case.

 

[Tricia]

Jayelles,

I know who you are referring to ... this person is one of two people I always thought was suspicious.If not a participant,at best this person knows some things that many people don't,and could probably help solve the case.

Capps, I agree Susan "Pitbull" Stine probably has info on the case. It was so strange how she and her hubby became best buds with the Rams after all their own friends dropped them.

I don't believe Stine has anything to do with the killing. Just with helping the Ramseys keep up the facade, albeit a weak one, of innocence.

 

[Rupert]

Capps, I agree Susan "Pitbull" Stine probably has info on the case. It was so strange how she and her hubby became best buds with the Rams after all their own friends dropped them.

I don't believe Stine has anything to do with the killing. Just with helping the Ramseys keep up the facade, albeit a weak one, of innocence.

That SS theory of Jayelles is fascinating when you think of her potential knowledge of her boarder with APAC and K.J.L.R Group and I.N.A.C and another foreign faction something.else I can't remember. But wouldn't Patsy see through all that? Amazing coincidences! Not to mention the SS "sophomoric joke" (like Leopold & Loeb) in impersonating Detective Becker. Well, if an intruder did write the RN, then they sure knew how to impersonate PR and hence write like her.

 

[ssiegmund]

and hence

did you use that expression on purpose? Wasn't that one of the details that convinced the graphologist (was his name Foster?)?

 

[Toltec]

How can anyone hate a six-year-old??? Only kids think that way. Same with jealousy...

This was an argument with horrific results. A very stressed-out Patsy struggling with JonBenet lashed out at her with the flashlight.

We know that soiled pair of pants turned inside out were found on the bathroom floor. Where were the soiled panties?

Christmas day, JonBenet gets out of her pajamas and puts the pants on. When she was told to get ready for the dinner party, she goes into her bathroom, removes the pants, then she puts on her black velvet pants. She does not change her underwear.

Fast forward...midnight. Patsy wakes JonBenet to use the potty. A very sleepy JonBenet wants none of that. Patsy get's her out of bed anyway.

In the bathroom Patsy notices that JonBenet's panties are soiled. She attempts to change her and a struggle ensues. JonBenet is hit over the head by Patsy.

Patsy changes JonBenet's soiled underwear and puts the "Wednesday" panties on her.

I've posted this scenario before...so have at it.

 

[Jayelles]

There have been cases where a child was killed as a result of hatred and jealousy. I have been hunting for the details of one which happened here in Scotland several decades ago. An only child - precious - mother made all her pretty dresses. She was murdered by a female neighbour who couldn't stand her. It's not a hugely publicised case and I don't think any books were written about it, but the case does appear in books which are about lots of cases. It was covered in a Scottish history magazine which I thew out a couple of months ago - just about a week before I needed to refer to it!

Just because we cannot relate to an emotion, doesn't mean that someone else doesn't experience it.

 

[UKGuy]

Jayelles,

here is a recent case not too far removed from your theory ...

12:00 - 09 July 2005
An Exeter woman has been jailed for three years for a campaign of harassment against a young girl, which a judge said was the most wicked crime he had ever seen.

The young girl and her mother are now trying to rebuild their lives after an 18-month campaign of harassment by Kathryn Skinner, the woman they thought was a trusted family friend.

Skinner, now 40, spiked children's drinks at birthday parties and put razor blades in school bags and lockers so her friend's daughter would get the blame.

She stole money and planted it in the young girl's bedroom, slashed the family's clothes and even faked hate mail from the youngster claiming she was being mistreated by her mother.

She did it in such a way that the youngster would be wrongly blamed - and she watched as the distressed girl was excluded from school, put into therapy and came close to being taken away from her distraught parents.

The campaign of terror began when the girl was only six years old.

Her worried mother, who sought help from the school, therapists and social services, confided in Skinner throughout the ordeal and was devastated to learn that her friend had plotted it all.

Judge Graham Cottle told Skinner, at Exeter Crown Court yesterday: "The story of this case almost defies belief. I do not believe I have previously dealt with a case which matched this for wickedness.

"The principal victim was a poor, helpless child. Yours were the actions of a warped and twisted mind."

Skinner had pleaded guilty to two charges of harassing the girl and her mother for more than a year.

She also pleaded guilty to assault occasioning actual bodily harm against the young girl between February 2003 and June last year.

And she admitted stealing £60 from the girl's mother and another charge of stealing £170 from the woman in 2003.

Detective Constable Nicci Bailey, the officer in the case, told the Echo: "These were calculated and callous acts intended to have an innocent young girl blamed and labelled as a vindictive and evil person."

Skinner eventually confessed once police were closing in, after an investigation revealed the crimes were too sophisticated to have been committed by a child.

The girl's mother is still trying to understand why her friend betrayed the family so badly. She has spoken to the Echo to thank her family, friends and DC Bailey for their support through the ordeal.

She said: "Kathryn Skinner was a close friend and I had known her for 14 years. I thought she was helping our family through it and supporting us but all the time she was twisting the knife."

The mother said: "A £20 note which had gone missing turned up in my daughter's bedroom and I found blank cheques ripped up at my home.

"It became worse when I discovered the curtains had been slashed in my daughter's room. Every pair of curtains except one in the house were then ripped and slashed."

Over the next 18 months, more than 100 items of clothing were slashed - including Skinner's when she visited the house - and even the mother's pillow was targeted.

"I found some clothes badly damaged that we had only just bought and were still in the shop bag," said the mother. "A fork had been used and was still sticking out of the clothes."

Keys, mobile phones, remote control handsets and Sky TV satellite cards were damaged and disappeared.

A knife was found sticking into the wires of a vacuum cleaner, blowing electrical fuses in the house.

The girl's father even discovered his new equipment had been wrecked when he went out fishing.

"Both my husband and I started locking knives and scissors away. We put a lock on our bedroom door. We even had to padlock the kitchen knives," said the woman.

Damage was then done with tweezers, forks and nail clippers instead. The girl was referred to the county's Children and Adolescent Mental Health Services for therapy.

The spotlight then turned on the family and whether the parents' behaviour was somehow to blame.

"Our marriage was under extreme pressure," said the woman. "It was completely destructive for the family, we were suspicious of each other. Our daughter had always been a child who had hated upsetting or hurting people.

"She was still loving but became very tearful, moody and wasn't sleeping."

She added: "Kathryn would be nice to my daughter and sit there watching, while I was telling my daughter off.

"I remember thinking she was better with my daughter than I was. "At the time I thought I couldn't have got through it without Kathryn's support. I even said to her 'it's so great you're still my friend after everything you have been through with my daughter.'

"There wasn't anything to show that she was responsible."

The harassment took a turn for the worse when it moved beyond the home.

Tablets were discovered in another child's bag at the girl's school and another bag had been slashed.

Knife blades were found in the girl's locker and her mother discovered empty blister packs of tablets in the youngster's bedroom bin.

"I was so concerned about the danger to other children that I told the school about it," said the mother. "My daughter then had to be searched daily before she left home and when she got to school by a classroom assistant.

"I would check her shoes and clothes but the blades still turned up. I asked social services for help but they said it was beyond their remit."

The girl was excluded from school after drinks were spiked again at a child's birthday party.

The mother said: "The school said she was not allowed back there and must stay home for a month. She could then only go back part-time - and this continued for five months."

The family were on the verge of breakdown and decided to go on holiday abroad - but the father was unable to go because his passport had been ripped up.

"Kathryn even offered to lend us clothes because so many had been damaged," said the woman.

The distraught mother was now taking anti-depressants and sleeping pills to cope.

Some of the anti-depressants disappeared from her handbag and were found in a drink at another child's birthday party.

Tablets and razor blades were found in one girl's pockets and three anti-depressants in another's.

"All the kids were terrified and crying at school the next day," said the mother.

"My daughter told me that she thought she must be doing these things in her sleep."

Skinner even wrote letters pretending to be the girl.

On a visit to a city supermarket, she showed the mother one that she claimed to have found in the toilet. It said the girl had being badly treated by her mother.

"Social services were about to take my daughter away but by now the police were involved," said the woman.

The woman said that Skinner told her that she had a secret to share, once the police began investigating the case, but decided against confessing at the last minute.

Instead, her husband told the girl's mother when she was giving him a lift home - and Skinner burst into tears when they arrived.

"It all made sense," said the woman. "I was shocked but I had begun to realise it wasn't my daughter and now I knew why. I thought I had the child from hell and to know someone else who I had trusted was responsible made it even worse."

Now the family are trying to move on. The girl's mother says she wishes there had been more support from the social services and education authority rather than her daughter being blamed.

"We've got a lot of work to do," said the mother. "My daughter is left with a feeling of not trusting people and she is angry at me. She is behind with her education, finds it difficult to make friends and has stomach aches and headaches.

"Kathryn Skinner spent 18 months destroying a little girl's trust."

DC Bailey praised the family for sticking together.

"They have been under enormous pressure," she said. "They have shown great resilience. The young girl has shown great courage and is now having to work hard to gain back the trust of all the people who doubted her.

"It is impossible to measure the long-term effects on her. The police hope she and her family can start to rebuild their lives

Other Articles:
Woman jailed for three years after hate campaign against friend's daughter, 6
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1686693,00.html
----------------------------------------------------------
Woman jailed for waging twisted campaign against girl of 6
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=762072005

 

[Eagle1]

Wow, what a story, UKGuy.

 

[Eagle1]

That SS theory of Jayelles is fascinating when you think of her potential knowledge of her boarder with APAC and K.J.L.R Group and I.N.A.C and another foreign faction something.else I can't remember. But wouldn't Patsy see through all that? Amazing coincidences! Not to mention the SS "sophomoric joke" (like Leopold & Loeb) in impersonating Detective Becker. Well, if an intruder did write the RN, then they sure knew how to impersonate PR and hence write like her.

Yes, there had to be hatred, enough to make someone study the R family that closely. For no-telling how long. He may have been impersonating JonBenet, in an odd way, sleeping in her bed in Charlevoix when there were a number of other beds to choose from. Spooky. The housekeepers saw his (neatnik) suitcase and boots, but never saw him. Hopefully we all remember and I'll not be asked for an exact source. It was quite some time ago that it was discussed.

The Dowallaby (sp?) case was reviewed on TV recently, A& E I think, and that little girl was also found with some soiled underpants nearby. I don't know if that means anything to us, just thought I'd mention the coincidence.
I love these theories.

 

[Toltec]

A pretty remarkable story UK.

This was Christmas day, a time when families get together and celebrate. Homes are usually filled with family, out-of-town guests, etc. What intruder in his right mind pick of all days Christmas to kill a child? The risk this "intruder" took goes way beyond rationalization.

There was no intruder period. No evidence of an outsider...all the materials used to kill JonBenet came from the home. You do not enter a home to abduct a child, then change your mind and decide to feed her pineapple. Then you get the urge to molest her, then hit her over the head, and then strangle her and write a three page manifesto.

Ludicrous.