The Barrels

  • #21
Thanks Saul Vesalot for the info! I do remember reading that at some point, and I don't think it was ever addressed again (seems that there was a lot of that)

Kratz:
But regarding the chain of custody, not only can that be addressed by cross-examination, but I believe we have complied, as has been noted throughout this case, with discovery, that the defense has things perhaps that they don't even know they have.

I was thinking about this last night.... Buting and Strang were only 2 people, I guess they may have had a few staff members from their firms helping, but for the most part, it was just the 2 of them. The amount of discovery that Kratz sent them had to have been overwhelming and as the Kratz quote above suggests, they probably had things they didn't even know they had!!!! I wonder how many of those things Zellner and her staff have found? How many things internet sleuths have found that they didn't? I don't blame them for missing things, there was only so much they could do.
 
  • #22
Does anyone know why the barrel's wouldn't be in the evidence log?

I looked yesterday a few times, went back today in case I missed them. I don't see them on the list.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-County-Sheriffs-Department-Evidence-List.pdf

I looked for 642, 643, 654, 7922, 7921. Can't find any of them. I do find the "contents of barrel" evidence, and I did find "8140 bone fragments", but not the barrel's themselves.
 
  • #23
Thanks Saul Vesalot for the info! I do remember reading that at some point, and I don't think it was ever addressed again (seems that there was a lot of that)



I was thinking about this last night.... Buting and Strang were only 2 people, I guess they may have had a few staff members from their firms helping, but for the most part, it was just the 2 of them. The amount of discovery that Kratz sent them had to have been overwhelming and as the Kratz quote above suggests, they probably had things they didn't even know they had!!!! I wonder how many of those things Zellner and her staff have found? How many things internet sleuths have found that they didn't? I don't blame them for missing things, there was only so much they could do.

If Buting and Strang were so overwhelmed by the evidence that they missed things that could have helped their case they should have addressed the court of the problem and hired more help. JMO
 
  • #24
If Buting and Strang were so overwhelmed by the evidence that they missed things that could have helped their case they should have addressed the court of the problem and hired more help. JMO

We have the benefit of hindsight. I'm not sure at the time they were overwhelmed or even expressed that they were, it's just my opinion. IIRC, Buting especially has expressed a few times that there are things they "missed", I don't for a second think that they knew they missed it at the time, so how do they address something that they don't even realize? Kratz even acknowledges "that the defense has things perhaps that they don't even know they have". I'm just wondering what other things they had that they didn't know they had?

JMO of course, and sorry, I probably should have put that in my other post ;-)
 
  • #25
We have the benefit of hindsight. I'm not sure at the time they were overwhelmed or even expressed that they were, it's just my opinion. IIRC, Buting especially has expressed a few times that there are things they "missed", I don't for a second think that they knew they missed it at the time, so how do they address something that they don't even realize? Kratz even acknowledges "that the defense has things perhaps that they don't even know they have". I'm just wondering what other things they had that they didn't know they had?

JMO of course, and sorry, I probably should have put that in my other post ;-)

Sounds like ineffective assistance of counsel IMO.

To prove they received ineffective assistance, a criminal defendant must show two things:
  1. Deficient performance by counsel
  2. Resulting prejudice, in that but for the deficient performance, the result of the proceeding would have differed

All of the things that have been found to be missed could have caused an acquittal. JMO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffective_assistance_of_counsel
 
  • #26
Sounds like ineffective assistance of counsel IMO.



All of the things that have been found to be missed could have caused an acquittal. JMO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffective_assistance_of_counsel

Based on the Strickland Standard, ineffective assistance of counsel is extremely difficult to prove. Just look at what happened to Brendan Dassey. There are many incompetent, corrupt lawyers out there. (Len Kachinsky is one, IMO) BD wasn't even able to prove ineffective assistance of counsel from him. (and I would like to add that I believe Strang and Buting are highly competent, ethical lawyers)

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/despite-his-attorneys-outrageous-conductmaking-a-murderers-brendan-dassey-probably-wont-get-new-trial/


"The Strickland standard has proven to be an impossibly high benchmark that renders even the most atrocious legal conduct acceptable. In “Unequal Assistance of Counsel,” Washington University in St. Louis School of Law Professor Peter Joy explains that, “In establishing the Strickland standard, the Court created conditions in which unequal assistance of counsel can thrive with little or no recourse for those adversely affected.”

Professor Joy describes shocking circumstances in which attorneys’ conduct did not reach the Strickland benchmark, including trials in which the defense attorney fell asleep, was under the influence of drugs or alcohol, was mentally impaired, or admitted the defendant’s guilt."

Much easier said than done, IMO





 
  • #27
Based on the Strickland Standard, ineffective assistance of counsel is extremely difficult to prove. Just look at what happened to Brendan Dassey.

"Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668 (1984), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that established the standard for determining when a criminal defendant's Sixth Amendment right to counsel is violated by that counsel's inadequate performance."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strickland_v._Washington



yep, in a filing after his conviction, "Ineffective assistance of Counsel" was argued, but was in regards to the juror that was dismissed. In the order, this is stated:

This court operates under the principles adopted by the Supreme Court in
Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668 (1984). To establish a claim of ineffective
assistance of counsel under Strickland, the defendant must demonstrate that: (1)
defense counsel made errors so serious that counsel was not functioning as the
"counsel" guaranteed to the defendant by the Sixth Amendment; and (2) this
defrcient performance prejudiced the defense so seriously as to deprive the
defendant of a fair trial, a trial whose result is reliable. Strickland,466 U.S' at
687


I think SA has exhausted all of his appeals, and the Ineffective Counsel boat has sunk? but maybe not. Will be interesting to see what Zellner does with all the information she has.

JMO

ETA: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...endants-Motion-for-Post-Conviction-Relief.pdf the above excerpt was taken from this Decision and Order
 
  • #28
Does anyone know why the barrel's wouldn't be in the evidence log?

I looked yesterday a few times, went back today in case I missed them. I don't see them on the list.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-County-Sheriffs-Department-Evidence-List.pdf

I looked for 642, 643, 654, 7922, 7921. Can't find any of them. I do find the "contents of barrel" evidence, and I did find "8140 bone fragments", but not the barrel's themselves.

Probably just another one of those
coincidence's?
oversight's?
typo's?

IMO
( take your pick )
 
  • #29
If Buting and Strang were so overwhelmed by the evidence that they missed things that could have helped their case they should have addressed the court of the problem and hired more help. JMO

I'm not sure there was money for that. But I don't know why for sure they didn't take that approach.
And I believe KZ did try an ineffective assistance approach and Buting and Strang kinda backed her up.

In March, Zellner told Newsweek she hoped to have Avery’s conviction overturned because he had ineffective counsel. The lawyer claimed Strang and Buting failed to present in court cellphone records that proved Halbach left Avery’s property in Manitowoc County, Wisconsin, alive on Halloween 2005. (Zellner is also working on uncovering new evidence to compel a new trial for Avery; she argues that advanced forensic testing unavailable at the time of the original trial will prove his innocence.)

In an interview with Newsweek Monday, Strang and Buting said that Zellner’s dogged enthusiasm for the case was welcomed, even if their earlier defense comes under fire. “Good lawyers don’t take it personally,” Buting tells Newsweek. “We’re human beings, [law] is a human endeavor and as long as it is, even the best can make mistakes.”

[large snip by me]

Also, it’s a case where we as trial counsel could have missed something that could have been significant. We really did want fresh eyes to look at all of the issues, including whether we possibly rendered ineffective assistance of counsel.
source

http://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-m...strang-and-jerry-buting-respond-steven-513074


Kratz even acknowledges "that the defense has things perhaps that they don't even know they have". I'm just wondering what other things they had that they didn't know they had?

That could very well have been a good thing, honestly. Remember his first case? That had one cardboard box worth of stuff, and I think that included the court transcripts. Probably better to have too much, than virtually nothing at all.

Professor Joy describes shocking circumstances in which attorneys’ conduct did not reach the Strickland benchmark, including trials in which the defense attorney fell asleep, was under the influence of drugs or alcohol, was mentally impaired, or admitted the defendant’s guilt."

This is very much true. Proving ineffective assistance of counsel is almost impossible. Not only can your lawyer fall asleep, but they can sleep every day of your trial or not even show up, as long as they don't miss too much. What that limit is isn't clear. A lawyer once said a good rule of thumb is that they didn't miss a full half of the total trial, but that was explained to me a long time ago and I could be misremembering.

You practically have to attempt to murder your client in court. Lawyers are given A LOT of leeway, which can definitely be a good thing. But generally in order for ineffective assistance to be found, the lawyer has to make decisions that willfully are done to harm the client and in no way could be construed as part of a "strategy."

Not calling a key witness can be counted as a strategy, for instance, if it is possible the witness might be construed as being untrustworthy or might make the defendant look bad. You might be better off without an alibi if your alibi is "I was hanging out with a registered sex offender", so not calling them can be seen as a legitimate good decision by the courts.

Probably just another one of those
coincidence's?
oversight's?
typo's?

IMO
( take your pick )

I think the term you are looking for is "honest mistake"
 
  • #30
Thanks for pointing out that Newsweek article Saul Vesalot :) So KZ must be able to still use the "ineffective counsel" argument.

Since that article, I think she has come out saying she isn't even looking for a new trial, she wants to exonerate him with new evidence (including the testing).

As for the barrel's not being on the evidence log being an "honest mistake".... I wish that was true, but there can only be so many "honest mistakes" :scared:
 
  • #31
Here was something that I made a note of and just now got back to looking at it...

Deputy Jeremy Hawkins was the evidence custodian for Calumet County Sheriff's Dept. From what I can tell, he was responsible for logging the evidence, retrieving it, storing it. (I'm not sure if he was the only officer but all of his reports seem to indicate this was his main job)

On Nov 8th, Ertl, Cates, and Zhang were going through the barrels (the 3 remaining at CASO at the point should have been Barrel's #1, #2, and #3, right? #4 had already been returned, and the Matuszak barrel I believe is the cell phone barrel). They were doing this at the Sheriff's Dept.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=152

11/08/05
Hawkins

On 11/08/05, JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG from the WI STATE CRIME LAB arrived at the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT. The three barrels that were remaining at the sheriff s department, a barrel Deputy MATUSZAK had brought back from the AVERY property and the Suzuki Samurai door were signed over to JOHN ERTL. While JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG were going through the barrels, I again continued logging in evidence once it arrived from the crime scene at the AVERY property.

I contacted District Attorney (DA) KENNETH KRATZ and asked DA KRATZ about keeping the barrels. I was advised by DA KRATZ that the barrels from the AVERY properly would remain in evidence. DA KRATZ also wanted the barrel marked #4 that was returned to the AVERY property to be brought back. After talking with DA KRATZ, arrangements were made for long-term storage in the back garage of the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT.

Once JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG were finished with the four barrels, the barrels and the Suzuki door were signed over to my custody. The barrels were put into the long-term secure area of the back garage. The Suzuki door was brought down and placed behind the locked cage.

There is no indication of time anywhere in the above report (the above is not the complete report, just what was reported about the barrel's)

The following is part of Reimer's report, and he indicates this happens at the COMMAND POST, which would be located at the Avery property.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=174

11/08/05
Reimer

At 1714 hours, I did collect from the WI STATE CRIME LAB, who had brought the items up to the CALUMET COUNTY COMMAND POST, Property Tag #8314, which was the contents of barrel#2.

At 1726 hours, I collected the contents of the cell phone barrel, Property Tag #8316.
At 1728 hours, I collected the contents of barrel #3, Property Tag#8317
At 1734 hours, I collected Property Tag #8319, the contents of barrel #4.

All items listed were transported to the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT where they were turned over to the evidence locker.​

Where is the contents of barrel #1? Further looking, I see that it was reported wrong in Reimer's report.... At 1718 hours, I collected Property Tag #8315, a RAV4 license plate. <<< #8315 is contents of barrel #1.


How did the contents of barrel #4 make it back to the Avery property? Remember this is the also the same day they were told to bring back barrel #4 to the dept and it wasn't at the Dept when they were going through the barrel's earlier.

And my biggest question is.... if they went through the barrel's at the Sheriff's Dept, why in the world did they take it back to the Avery property (Calumet Command Post) to give to Reimer so that he could just take it back to the Sheriff's Dept? Why didn't they just leave it with Hawkin's when they were there? He was the evidence guy.

The contents of the barrel's were retrieved and handed over to a DCI officer to be taken to the Lab by Hawkins on the 9th.
 
  • #32
I'm not sure there was money for that. But I don't know why for sure they didn't take that approach.
And I believe KZ did try an ineffective assistance approach and Buting and Strang kinda backed her up.


source

http://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-m...strang-and-jerry-buting-respond-steven-513074




That could very well have been a good thing, honestly. Remember his first case? That had one cardboard box worth of stuff, and I think that included the court transcripts. Probably better to have too much, than virtually nothing at all.



This is very much true. Proving ineffective assistance of counsel is almost impossible. Not only can your lawyer fall asleep, but they can sleep every day of your trial or not even show up, as long as they don't miss too much. What that limit is isn't clear. A lawyer once said a good rule of thumb is that they didn't miss a full half of the total trial, but that was explained to me a long time ago and I could be misremembering.

You practically have to attempt to murder your client in court. Lawyers are given A LOT of leeway, which can definitely be a good thing. But generally in order for ineffective assistance to be found, the lawyer has to make decisions that willfully are done to harm the client and in no way could be construed as part of a "strategy."

Not calling a key witness can be counted as a strategy, for instance, if it is possible the witness might be construed as being untrustworthy or might make the defendant look bad. You might be better off without an alibi if your alibi is "I was hanging out with a registered sex offender", so not calling them can be seen as a legitimate good decision by the courts.



I think the term you are looking for is "honest mistake"
Honest mistake...never crossed my mind.
( if we're being honest here&#128521; )

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
  • #33
Here was something that I made a note of and just now got back to looking at it...

Deputy Jeremy Hawkins was the evidence custodian for Calumet County Sheriff's Dept. From what I can tell, he was responsible for logging the evidence, retrieving it, storing it. (I'm not sure if he was the only officer but all of his reports seem to indicate this was his main job)

On Nov 8th, Ertl, Cates, and Zhang were going through the barrels (the 3 remaining at CASO at the point should have been Barrel's #1, #2, and #3, right? #4 had already been returned, and the Matuszak barrel I believe is the cell phone barrel). They were doing this at the Sheriff's Dept.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=152

11/08/05
Hawkins

On 11/08/05, JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG from the WI STATE CRIME LAB arrived at the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT. The three barrels that were remaining at the sheriff s department, a barrel Deputy MATUSZAK had brought back from the AVERY property and the Suzuki Samurai door were signed over to JOHN ERTL. While JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG were going through the barrels, I again continued logging in evidence once it arrived from the crime scene at the AVERY property.

I contacted District Attorney (DA) KENNETH KRATZ and asked DA KRATZ about keeping the barrels. I was advised by DA KRATZ that the barrels from the AVERY properly would remain in evidence. DA KRATZ also wanted the barrel marked #4 that was returned to the AVERY property to be brought back. After talking with DA KRATZ, arrangements were made for long-term storage in the back garage of the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT.

Once JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG were finished with the four barrels, the barrels and the Suzuki door were signed over to my custody. The barrels were put into the long-term secure area of the back garage. The Suzuki door was brought down and placed behind the locked cage.

There is no indication of time anywhere in the above report (the above is not the complete report, just what was reported about the barrel's)

The following is part of Reimer's report, and he indicates this happens at the COMMAND POST, which would be located at the Avery property.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=174

11/08/05
Reimer

At 1714 hours, I did collect from the WI STATE CRIME LAB, who had brought the items up to the CALUMET COUNTY COMMAND POST, Property Tag #8314, which was the contents of barrel#2.

At 1726 hours, I collected the contents of the cell phone barrel, Property Tag #8316.
At 1728 hours, I collected the contents of barrel #3, Property Tag#8317
At 1734 hours, I collected Property Tag #8319, the contents of barrel #4.

All items listed were transported to the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT where they were turned over to the evidence locker.​

Where is the contents of barrel #1? Further looking, I see that it was reported wrong in Reimer's report.... At 1718 hours, I collected Property Tag #8315, a RAV4 license plate. <<< #8315 is contents of barrel #1.


How did the contents of barrel #4 make it back to the Avery property? Remember this is the also the same day they were told to bring back barrel #4 to the dept and it wasn't at the Dept when they were going through the barrel's earlier.

And my biggest question is.... if they went through the barrel's at the Sheriff's Dept, why in the world did they take it back to the Avery property (Calumet Command Post) to give to Reimer so that he could just take it back to the Sheriff's Dept? Why didn't they just leave it with Hawkin's when they were there? He was the evidence guy.

The contents of the barrel's were retrieved and handed over to a DCI officer to be taken to the Lab by Hawkins on the 9th.
Reading and then RE-READING this post it all looks absolutely ridiculous, IMO

I can't describe it any better than that..

Just thinking for a minute, there's not a doubt in my mind that Zellner will produce new evidence...I wonder though, you guys think she or her team reads here? ( thinking back to her referencing Steven Avery as " SA " about a year ago when this all began lol )

Just wondering if she gets as big of a laugh as I do looking at some of this stuff?!&#128513;
JMO

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
  • #34
oh geee... now I just read something else LOL

I went looking at the logs to see when Ertl, Cates, Zhuang signed in on the 8th at the Command Post. I was trying to figure out when they went through the barrel's at the Sheriff's dept. It must have been that morning because they handed over the evidence right before they left on the 8th.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/CASO-Crime-Scene-Logs.pdf

11:45 all 3 sign in
17:55 all 3 sign out

So then I went to look to see when Jost found the first bone in the burn pit.

He reports to the area at 12:47, He reports that Lt. Sippel went with him to the pit at 13:41 after he noticed the first bone. Page 15 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf

So of course I went to look for Sippel's report. lol Times all match up. But then I read this.

It should also
be noted that prior to checking the bum area,I observed that the area had not been disturbed. It
appeared that due to the previous heavy rains we had through the weekend, that being Saturday night/Sunday moming where we received approximately an inch plus in rain, there was a crust
over the top of the burn area, the burned ash and materials. It did not appear as if anybody had previously dug into or moved anything within the pile. The two items that we observed were lying directly on the top.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=157


They were lying on top of this crust? that would have been formed on the 5th/6th after a heavy rain??? so just like the phone/camera/Pda appeared to lying on top of the crusty ash/burnt material in the barrel???


I see why they didn't take pictures!
 
  • #35
Reading and then RE-READING this post it all looks absolutely ridiculous, IMO

I can't describe it any better than that..

Just thinking for a minute, there's not a doubt in my mind that Zellner will produce new evidence...I wonder though, you guys think she or her team reads here? ( thinking back to her referencing Steven Avery as " SA " about a year ago when this all began lol )

Just wondering if she gets as big of a laugh as I do looking at some of this stuff?!&#55357;&#56833;
JMO

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

I have read these reports numerous times before posting them LOL sometimes I really can't believe what I'm reading, so I walk away and come back and read it again in case I read it wrong or missed something.

I'm not sure if KZ reads here.... it wouldn't be unheard of, that a lawyer or their team reads here or other blogs, like reddit. Remember the pictures in Newsweek? They had all the pictures on the floor. I sure hope they have found a really big room and have tried to map out and follow these barrel's. They also have the advantage of having more photo's and DCI reports... and Eisenberg's reports. SkippTopp (from reddit) requested those documents months ago and was denied.

I have considered offering my first born in exchange for the reports :biggrin: Maybe when the remaining exhibit photo's come, we will see more pictures of the barrel's and/or pit.
 
  • #36
Here was something that I made a note of and just now got back to looking at it...

Deputy Jeremy Hawkins was the evidence custodian for Calumet County Sheriff's Dept. From what I can tell, he was responsible for logging the evidence, retrieving it, storing it. (I'm not sure if he was the only officer but all of his reports seem to indicate this was his main job)

On Nov 8th, Ertl, Cates, and Zhang were going through the barrels (the 3 remaining at CASO at the point should have been Barrel's #1, #2, and #3, right? #4 had already been returned, and the Matuszak barrel I believe is the cell phone barrel). They were doing this at the Sheriff's Dept.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=152

11/08/05
Hawkins

On 11/08/05, JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG from the WI STATE CRIME LAB arrived at the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT. The three barrels that were remaining at the sheriff s department, a barrel Deputy MATUSZAK had brought back from the AVERY property and the Suzuki Samurai door were signed over to JOHN ERTL. While JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG were going through the barrels, I again continued logging in evidence once it arrived from the crime scene at the AVERY property.

I contacted District Attorney (DA) KENNETH KRATZ and asked DA KRATZ about keeping the barrels. I was advised by DA KRATZ that the barrels from the AVERY properly would remain in evidence. DA KRATZ also wanted the barrel marked #4 that was returned to the AVERY property to be brought back. After talking with DA KRATZ, arrangements were made for long-term storage in the back garage of the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT.

Once JOHN ERTL, CHARLES CATES and GUANG ZHANG were finished with the four barrels, the barrels and the Suzuki door were signed over to my custody. The barrels were put into the long-term secure area of the back garage. The Suzuki door was brought down and placed behind the locked cage.

There is no indication of time anywhere in the above report (the above is not the complete report, just what was reported about the barrel's)

The following is part of Reimer's report, and he indicates this happens at the COMMAND POST, which would be located at the Avery property.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=174

11/08/05
Reimer

At 1714 hours, I did collect from the WI STATE CRIME LAB, who had brought the items up to the CALUMET COUNTY COMMAND POST, Property Tag #8314, which was the contents of barrel#2.

At 1726 hours, I collected the contents of the cell phone barrel, Property Tag #8316.
At 1728 hours, I collected the contents of barrel #3, Property Tag#8317
At 1734 hours, I collected Property Tag #8319, the contents of barrel #4.

All items listed were transported to the CALUMET COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT where they were turned over to the evidence locker.​

Where is the contents of barrel #1? Further looking, I see that it was reported wrong in Reimer's report.... At 1718 hours, I collected Property Tag #8315, a RAV4 license plate. <<< #8315 is contents of barrel #1.


How did the contents of barrel #4 make it back to the Avery property? Remember this is the also the same day they were told to bring back barrel #4 to the dept and it wasn't at the Dept when they were going through the barrel's earlier.

And my biggest question is.... if they went through the barrel's at the Sheriff's Dept, why in the world did they take it back to the Avery property (Calumet Command Post) to give to Reimer so that he could just take it back to the Sheriff's Dept? Why didn't they just leave it with Hawkin's when they were there? He was the evidence guy.

The contents of the barrel's were retrieved and handed over to a DCI officer to be taken to the Lab by Hawkins on the 9th.
.
I was really trying to follow the chain of command here, but I'm lost...LOL

But, hey wait a minute. HOW the hxll do all the barrels get back to the ASY at 5:00pm for Reimer to collect the contents when they left on a trailer at 11:11am with a member of CASO LE? Remember CASO LE had to stop on the side of the "OFF" ramp, I mean "ON" ramp to fix the trailer? They arrive at CASO at 12:24pm.
 
  • #37
.
I was really trying to follow the chain of command here, but I'm lost...LOL

But, hey wait a minute. HOW the hxll do all the barrels get back to the ASY at 5:00pm for Reimer to collect the contents when they left on a trailer at 11:11am with a member of CASO LE? Remember CASO LE had to stop on the side of the "OFF" ramp, I mean "ON" ramp to fix the trailer? They arrive at CASO at 12:24pm.

That was on November 6th I believe.

They went through the barrel's the morning of November 8th.

ETA: just to be clear. The 6th would have been the first trip with the barrel's, all 4 of them. #4 made it back to ASY and was transported back later on the 8th.
 
  • #38
oh geee... now I just read something else LOL

I went looking at the logs to see when Ertl, Cates, Zhuang signed in on the 8th at the Command Post. I was trying to figure out when they went through the barrel's at the Sheriff's dept. It must have been that morning because they handed over the evidence right before they left on the 8th.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/CASO-Crime-Scene-Logs.pdf

11:45 all 3 sign in
17:55 all 3 sign out

So then I went to look to see when Jost found the first bone in the burn pit.

He reports to the area at 12:47, He reports that Lt. Sippel went with him to the pit at 13:41 after he noticed the first bone. Page 15 http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Summary-Report-on-Homicide-Investigation.pdf

So of course I went to look for Sippel's report. lol Times all match up. But then I read this.

It should also
be noted that prior to checking the bum area,I observed that the area had not been disturbed. It
appeared that due to the previous heavy rains we had through the weekend, that being Saturday night/Sunday moming where we received approximately an inch plus in rain, there was a crust
over the top of the burn area, the burned ash and materials. It did not appear as if anybody had previously dug into or moved anything within the pile. The two items that we observed were lying directly on the top.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=157


They were lying on top of this crust? that would have been formed on the 5th/6th after a heavy rain??? so just like the phone/camera/Pda appeared to lying on top of the crusty ash/burnt material in the barrel???


I see why they didn't take pictures!
You have GOT to be kidding me!! Nope..nothing fishy here&#128580;
Sigh
Thank you, Missy
Your attention to detail and dedication to this case is appreciated
From where I sit anyway&#128522;&#10084;

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  • #39
o Property Tag#643, a 55 gallon barrel with miscellaneous items inside
o Property Tag#642, a 55 gallon barrel with miscellaneous items inside
o Property Tag #644, a 55 gallon barrel with miscellaneous items inside
o Property Tag#7102, a 50 gallon burn barrel, one-quarter full of material
o Property Tag #7921, a metal barrel with burnt material
o Property Tag #7922, a metal barrel with burnt material; the barrel has the number 4 on it

So I worked on making a kind of cheat sheet for the barrels and their associated numbers and aliases.


#642 Contents tag ?? [speculative] I think this is barrel #1. Barrel #1's Contents tag #8315. This tag # is also given as the number for the license plate at one point. The real tag for the plate is #8313

#643 had bone fragments in it. This barrel is referred to as #2. Contents tag 8314

#644 Contents tag ?? [speculative] I think this is barrel #3. Barrel #3's Contents tag #8317

#645 AKA #7922 AKA Barrel #4. The one that was taken back to the property. Contents Tag #8319

#7102 seems to be the "northwest corner" barrel/Avery driveway barrel /5th barrel/cellphone, pda barrel/Matuszak barrel/ barrel with the tire in it. Contents Tag #8316.

#7921 Just seems to be a barrel with burnt stuff. Have not found a tag # for its contents. May be in the trial transcripts.

According to Julie Cramer, the cadaver dog handler, the dog alerted on 2 of the 4 Janda barrels for human remains. #643 was one. Which other held human remains?


If you see anything wrong, please point it out and I will correct it.


Oh and by "honest mistake", I meant "honest mistake", not honest mistake. If you catch my drift. :wink
 
  • #40
So I worked on making a kind of cheat sheet for the barrels and their associated numbers and aliases.


#642 Contents tag ?? [speculative] I think this is barrel #1. Barrel #1's Contents tag #8315. This tag # is also given as the number for the license plate at one point. The real tag for the plate is #8313

#643 had bone fragments in it. This barrel is referred to as #2. Contents tag 8314

#644 Contents tag ?? [speculative] I think this is barrel #3. Barrel #3's Contents tag #8317

#645 AKA #7922 AKA Barrel #4. The one that was taken back to the property. Contents Tag #8319

#7102 seems to be the "northwest corner" barrel/Avery driveway barrel /5th barrel/cellphone, pda barrel/Matuszak barrel/ barrel with the tire in it. Contents Tag #8316.

#7921 Just seems to be a barrel with burnt stuff. Have not found a tag # for its contents. May be in the trial transcripts.

According to Julie Cramer, the cadaver dog handler, the dog alerted on 2 of the 4 Janda barrels for human remains. #643 was one. Which other held human remains?


If you see anything wrong, please point it out and I will correct it.


Oh and by "honest mistake", I meant "honest mistake", not honest mistake. If you catch my drift. :wink

This all looks right to me!

I think barrel #7921 might just be a random barrel from the property. Maybe his parents? Maybe CA's? Maybe just a barrel in the pit?

On Dec 20th, 2005, from page 358 of CASO:

Property Tag#7922 [barrel #4] was also processed and the following items were generated from that:
o Property Tag #8139, an earring
o Property Tag#8144, two AAA batteries
o Property Tag #8145, four AA batteries
o Property Tag #8146, paper
o Property Tag #8140, bone fragments [sent to Eisenberg's]
o Property Tag #8153, brass from a shotgun shell
o Property Tag #8154, a metal object, possibly resembling a cell phone antenna
o Property Tag #8157, two AA batteries
o Property Tag #8756, metal and wire
o Property Tag #8158, three AAA batteries
o Property Tag #8155, a spent .22 caliber shell
o Property Tag #8160, metal clothing pieces such as rivets and snaps
o Property Tag #8159, a glass piece


Barrel #4 had bone fragments too. It actually caught my eye because it didn't say "suspected bone fragments". Doing a search for #8140 in CASO, I found that in 2011, when they turned over some of the remains to the Halbach family, #8140 was included in that. Page 1114 of CASO.
 

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