The Barrels

[missy1974]

DEER CAMP BARREL

I don't think they physically took the barrel. I think they just took the contents of it.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=248

Also turned over to me was Property Tag#7958, burnt material with the words deer camp burn
barrel printed on the container, which was found at the deer camp near the location.

doing a search of 7958, it seems that they either had double Property tags again, or there is a typo (shocker! lol), it's referred to as a 5 gallon pail with debris on page 892.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

This all looks right to me!

I think barrel #7921 might just be a random barrel from the property. Maybe his parents? Maybe CA's? Maybe just a barrel in the pit?

On Dec 20th, 2005, from page 358 of CASO:

Property Tag#7922 [barrel #4] was also processed and the following items were generated from that:
o Property Tag #8139, an earring
o Property Tag#8144, two AAA batteries
o Property Tag #8145, four AA batteries
o Property Tag #8146, paper
o Property Tag #8140, bone fragments [sent to Eisenberg's]
o Property Tag #8153, brass from a shotgun shell
o Property Tag #8154, a metal object, possibly resembling a cell phone antenna
o Property Tag #8157, two AA batteries
o Property Tag #8756, metal and wire
o Property Tag #8158, three AAA batteries
o Property Tag #8155, a spent .22 caliber shell
o Property Tag #8160, metal clothing pieces such as rivets and snaps
o Property Tag #8159, a glass piece


Barrel #4 had bone fragments too. It actually caught my eye because it didn't say "suspected bone fragments". Doing a search for #8140 in CASO, I found that in 2011, when they turned over some of the remains to the Halbach family, #8140 was included in that. Page 1114 of CASO.

Oh yes of course, I remember now. #4 had bone fragments in it. The police giving a murderer a barrel of evidence is such a stupid thing to do that my mind refuses to hold onto that fact. This act would have had to have been OKed by multiple people. And now that I think about it, really think about it...They were returning this piece of potential evidence to a potential murderer DAYS after it was collected. Weren't Teresa's remains returned to the family in 2011?

Contemplating the fact that the police found a container of human remains and tried returning them to the main suspect (they searched the barrel again when it came back into evidence, if I recall correctly)...I wonder if I can sue Manitowoc County for brain damage?

Also turned over to me was Property Tag#7958, burnt material with the words deer camp burn
barrel printed on the container, which was found at the deer camp near the location.

doing a search of 7958, it seems that they either had double Property tags again, or there is a typo (shocker! lol), it's referred to as a 5 gallon pail with debris on page 892.

I think they recovered 5 5 gallon buckets from the Deer Camp. It is conceivable that the Deer Camp Barrel was a bucket?

 

[missy1974]

Oh yes of course, I remember now. #4 had bone fragments in it. The police giving a murderer a barrel of evidence is such a stupid thing to do that my mind refuses to hold onto that fact. This act would have had to have been OKed by multiple people. And now that I think about it, really think about it...They were returning this piece of potential evidence to a potential murderer DAYS after it was collected. Weren't Teresa's remains returned to the family in 2011?

Contemplating the fact that the police found a container of human remains and tried returning them to the main suspect (they searched the barrel again when it came back into evidence, if I recall correctly)...I wonder if I can sue Manitowoc County for brain damage?




I think they recovered 5 5 gallon buckets from the Deer Camp. It is conceivable that the Deer Camp Barrel was a bucket?

To be clear... the time frame where the barrel was picked up and taken back to the Sheriff's Dept, returned to the Salvage Yard, and then picked up again.... the Salvage Yard was considered a crime scene and was closed to the Avery/Dassey families, November 5th-12th IIRC, they didn't have access to the property, so if anything appeared in barrel #4 after it was already searched, they couldn't blame Avery for that LOL

I will have to do some more searching about the deer camp barrel, but you could be right, they may have emptied the burn barrel into the 5 gallon pails, but I only recall seeing 1 property tag with 'deer barrel contents', if they had 5, I should have found 5 property tags... will keep looking!

Yes, I believe it was in 2011 that remains were returned to the Halbach's.

I wish!!!!! We could sue Manitowoc County LOL

I am confused as to why they say barrel #4 was processed and they put it back on the trailer, then when it was brought back, it was processed again. Wouldn't they have removed the contents the first time? :doh:

 

[Limaes]

Part of Teresa's shoulder blade and hand was found in barrel #2 as per Eisenberg's testimony. It was barrel #4 that was put back on the trailer and the report didn't state the contents went with it. Jmo

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[Limaes]

These are barrels #1, 2, 3 & 4 that were behind the Dassey home. As per testimony of Fassbender and Cramer, Brutus alerted to barrel #2 the same afternoon that the RAV 4 was found.

 

[missy1974]

Part of Teresa's shoulder blade and hand was found in barrel #2 as per Eisenberg's testimony. It was barrel #4 that was put back on the trailer and the report didn't state the contents went with it. Jmo

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Actually, more than that was found in barrel #2.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...berg-Pics-of-Cut-Marks-on-Halbach-Remains.pdf

And right, it didn't state in the report that the contents went with it. It was processed, and barrel 4 was put back on the trailer and taken back to ASY. When it was brought back, it was processed again. There should have been no need to process it again, and there certainly shouldn't have been anything in it, especially bone fragments if the contents were removed. So either it was filled again when at ASY, or it was sent back with everything in it and they missed the bone fragments the first time. Either way, Property tag #8140 was bone fragments that were returned to the Halbach's in 2011. 8140 came from property tag 7922, which was the contents of a barrel with the number 4 on it.

 

[missy1974]

These are barrels #1, 2, 3 & 4 that were behind the Dassey home. As per testimony of Fassbender and Cramer, Brutus alerted to barrel #2 the same afternoon that the RAV 4 was found.

Can you provide a link to where Cramer said Brutus alerted to barrel #2? I know he alerted 'at the barrels'.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

Can you provide a link to where Cramer said Brutus alerted to barrel #2? I know he alerted 'at the barrels'.

It might be deduction.

Q. (By Attorney Strang)~ I have asked one already; he alerted on two of the barrels?
A. Yes.
Q. And the alerts go with extreme animation and excitement?
21 A. Yes.

Brutus alerted on 2 barrels and not the other two. So the ones with bone fragments are presumed to be those barrels.

I don't have much faith in the quality of the investigation, but I do trust the most handsome investigator on the team.
Julie Cramer and Brutus.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/exhibit-128.jpg

Brutus at the time was a 10 year old Belgian Malinois, a type of Belgian shepherd.

We had two [false positives], both in 2005, that come to mind. In one case we were called to a drowning situation where it was believed a driver and his vehicle --the driver had Alzheimer's -- had entered a canal in northern Illinois. Brutus gave a very definitive alert in an area that would have been logical where the vehicle could have been gone in. Divers looked without success for two days. We cleared scene. I was very concerned about that as a false positive. Bothered me a lot in training. Some weeks went by and we received a call from the agency that as a barge had gone through taking corn in this canal, they had struck something and in finding out, it was the vehicle. It had obviously gone in with enough force it was silted into the river. They were able pull to the vehicle out and the driver was within the vehicle.

-Julie Cramer on day 5

At the time of the trial Brutus had successfully identified 70-80 places where human remains were located. He was trained with actual human remains and not any sort of simulation cadaver (ie pig or "pseudo corpse").

So I think Brutus is pretty trustworthy.

 

[missy1974]

It might be deduction.


Brutus alerted on 2 barrels and not the other two. So the ones with bone fragments are presumed to be those barrels.

I don't have much faith in the quality of the investigation, but I do trust the most handsome investigator on the team.
Julie Cramer and Brutus.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/exhibit-128.jpg

Brutus at the time was a 10 year old Belgian Malinois, a type of Belgian shepherd.


-Julie Cramer on day 5

At the time of the trial Brutus had successfully identified 70-80 places where human remains were located. He was trained with actual human remains and not any sort of simulation cadaver (ie pig or "pseudo corpse").

So I think Brutus is pretty trustworthy.

Thanks so much for that Saul Vesalot. Who was testifying about that? Was it Cramer?

So this is just further verification IMO that there was indeed bones in another barrel, and by the looks of it, it was barrel 4.

I guess Buting and Strang missed this and of course the State didn't bring it up, that would mean the bones were actually found in 4 different places and the fact that the barrel was taken, brought back to the ASY, and then taken again would definitely pose a problem. I sure hope Zellner is on this one!

 

[Saul Vesalot]

Thanks so much for that Saul Vesalot. Who was testifying about that? Was it Cramer?

So this is just further verification IMO that there was indeed bones in another barrel, and by the looks of it, it was barrel 4.

I guess Buting and Strang missed this and of course the State didn't bring it up, that would mean the bones were actually found in 4 different places and the fact that the barrel was taken, brought back to the ASY, and then taken again would definitely pose a problem. I sure hope Zellner is on this one!

Yep, Julie Cramer. The corn barge story starts on page 60 of the trial transcript for February 16th.

That is a lot of places to find bones in a case where someone didn't cut up the body.

Also, it seems weird they didn't have a cut marks expert testify (correct me if I am mistaken!), especially since with Avery's alleged tendency to hold on for dear life to any and all evidence, that expert could probably have found the exact right instrument used to cut up the body.

Imagine how excited Kratz would have been to get the chance to hold a hacksaw while spinning his lurid yarns.

 

[missy1974]

Yep, Julie Cramer. The corn barge story starts on page 60 of the trial transcript for February 16th.

That is a lot of places to find bones in a case where someone didn't cut up the body.

Also, it seems weird they didn't have a cut marks expert testify (correct me if I am mistaken!), especially since with Avery's alleged tendency to hold on for dear life to any and all evidence, that expert could probably have found the exact right instrument used to cut up the body.

Imagine how excited Kratz would have been to get the chance to hold a hacksaw while spinning his lurid yarns.

Thanks again!

found it... http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-5-2007Feb16.pdf#page=62

And yep, 4 places where bones were found. And during Eisenberg's testimony, the point was made that the bones found in the barrel came from all over the body, which IMO would decrease the likelihood that the body was dismembered prior to burning. They didn't have an expert testify about the cut marks, and IIRC Kratz got his panties in a knot when Buting asked Eisenberg about the cut marks on the pelvic bone found in the quarry.

I just can't wrap my head around why if SA was guilty would he put some bones in one barrel... some more in another.... one in the quarry ... and leave a larger amount in the pit. Logical? Nope. I get that killers don't always think logically, but c'mon, this is beyond that.


And the cut in the pelvic bone... what is that all about? Someone tried to cut it afterwards because it wouldn't burn down? when they couldn't cut it, they just left it in the quarry? or took it away to the quarry?

 

[Saul Vesalot]

Thanks again!

found it... http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-5-2007Feb16.pdf#page=62

And yep, 4 places where bones were found. And during Eisenberg's testimony, the point was made that the bones found in the barrel came from all over the body, which IMO would decrease the likelihood that the body was dismembered prior to burning. They didn't have an expert testify about the cut marks, and IIRC Kratz got his panties in a knot when Buting asked Eisenberg about the cut marks on the pelvic bone found in the quarry.

I just can't wrap my head around why if SA was guilty would he put some bones in one barrel... some more in another.... one in the quarry ... and leave a larger amount in the pit. Logical? Nope. I get that killers don't always think logically, but c'mon, this is beyond that.


And the cut in the pelvic bone... what is that all about? Someone tried to cut it afterwards because it wouldn't burn down? when they couldn't cut it, they just left it in the quarry? or took it away to the quarry?

Yeah, the Shell Game Human Bones Edition is probably the biggest thing that makes me think we are missing a lot of the story. I once saw someone suggest that the bullet holes could have been from someone breaking up the skull with a gun. That hypothesis cannot be refuted with the evidence we have, though I don't truly believe it. Just another uncertainty.

The pelvic bone is pretty big and dense, along with the shoulder blade and the long bones (all found in a barrel), so I could see that not burning and breaking down well.

Putting the bones in the barrels could have been to hide some pieces that are obviously bone? I think that could count for both him being framed and not. If he was framed, the framers wouldn't want him to be able to find and dispose of ALL of the bones. (Apply this to the RAV4 and license plate as well and that kinda starts making some possible sense?)

Maybe this case is like jazz...you don't just listen to the notes they play, you listen to the ones they don't ? Maybe the cut marks is one of those notes?

One thing that I think could be helpful....Another cadaver dog canvassing the area. Lots of bones and bone fragments are missing, some due to being burned away completely, but I'm willing to bet there was a ton of material SOMEWHERE that was never recovered due to being unidentifiable as human remains. I wonder how much is still out there or recoverable.

 

[missy1974]

I took a look earlier today, I didn't find any, but I wish we had a picture of the bones that were found in barrel #2. I think they were still bone fragments and not whole long bones. Small hand bones were also found in that barrel, and I'm not sure a complete scapula was found.

There were some pretty big bones still in the burn pit, the cranial bones look fairly large still? It's hard to judge from a picture though.

And of course, we don't have a photo of the bones from #4 barrel, but now I am really curious about them.

The thought that SA or someone else moved the bones to the barrel.... I wonder if they could try to test the bones for DNA, like touch DNA? we know that SA was sweaty ALL the time :biggrin:

 

[Saul Vesalot]

I took a look earlier today, I didn't find any, but I wish we had a picture of the bones that were found in barrel #2. I think they were still bone fragments and not whole long bones. Small hand bones were also found in that barrel, and I'm not sure a complete scapula was found.

There were some pretty big bones still in the burn pit, the cranial bones look fairly large still? It's hard to judge from a picture though.

And of course, we don't have a photo of the bones from #4 barrel, but now I am really curious about them.

The thought that SA or someone else moved the bones to the barrel.... I wonder if they could try to test the bones for DNA, like touch DNA? we know that SA was sweaty ALL the time :biggrin:

I would have liked a lot more bone pictures. One where they reconstruct the skeleton the best they can.

And the only DNA they would have found on those bones would have been Sherry Culhane's

 

[missy1974]

I would have liked a lot more bone pictures. One where they reconstruct the skeleton the best they can.

And the only DNA they would have found on those bones would have been Sherry Culhane's

:giggle:

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Thanks again!

found it... http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-5-2007Feb16.pdf#page=62

And yep, 4 places where bones were found. And during Eisenberg's testimony, the point was made that the bones found in the barrel came from all over the body, which IMO would decrease the likelihood that the body was dismembered prior to burning. They didn't have an expert testify about the cut marks, and IIRC Kratz got his panties in a knot when Buting asked Eisenberg about the cut marks on the pelvic bone found in the quarry.

I just can't wrap my head around why if SA was guilty would he put some bones in one barrel... some more in another.... one in the quarry ... and leave a larger amount in the pit. Logical? Nope. I get that killers don't always think logically, but c'mon, this is beyond that.


And the cut in the pelvic bone... what is that all about? Someone tried to cut it afterwards because it wouldn't burn down? when they couldn't cut it, they just left it in the quarry? or took it away to the quarry?

.
This is the part I just don't understand...The Avery's owned 105 acres in Marinette County surrounded by thousands of acres of county and state land. SA was going there over the weekend and he leaves all of the evidence on the 40 acres TH was last seen? It just doesn't make sense. I could see him going up there early before the rest of the family to dispose of remains, but really with the vast amount of land at his disposal, he keeps the bones and other evidence right there on his property.

Oh~~by the way~~our friends where I took pictures earlier lived on County Road P~~further down~~but none the less~~didn't realize just how close they were to the Avery's.

The brown indicates County Land and the Yellow State Land..and that is just what is in Marinette County. There is much more to the West which would be Menominee County WI. The small blue dot is Avery Property.

 

[dexter75]

I took a look earlier today, I didn't find any, but I wish we had a picture of the bones that were found in barrel #2. I think they were still bone fragments and not whole long bones. Small hand bones were also found in that barrel, and I'm not sure a complete scapula was found.

There were some pretty big bones still in the burn pit, the cranial bones look fairly large still? It's hard to judge from a picture though.

And of course, we don't have a photo of the bones from #4 barrel, but now I am really curious about them.

The thought that SA or someone else moved the bones to the barrel.... I wonder if they could try to test the bones for DNA, like touch DNA? we know that SA was sweaty ALL the time [emoji3]

😀

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[dexter75]

.
This is the part I just don't understand...The Avery's owned 105 acres in Marinette County surrounded by thousands of acres of county and state land. SA was going there over the weekend and he leaves all of the evidence on the 40 acres TH was last seen? It just doesn't make sense. I could see him going up there early before the rest of the family to dispose of remains, but really with the vast amount of land at his disposal, he keeps the bones and other evidence right there on his property.

Oh~~by the way~~our friends where I took pictures earlier lived on County Road P~~further down~~but none the less~~didn't realize just how close they were to the Avery's.

The brown indicates County Land and the Yellow State Land..and that is just what is in Marinette County. There is much more to the West which would be Menominee County WI. The small blue dot is Avery Property.

I've often thought this too <modsnip>. They had other property, a lot of it.
One would think SA would have dumped TH elsewhere.
Then again, one would think SA wouldn't have announced to Auto Trader to send TH out to his place so he could torture and murder her either&#55357;&#56900;

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[proudfootz]

It's not entirely clear to me how many fires Steven was supposed to be starting and maintaining between all the raping and torturing, fielding phone calls and random times, making sure Brendan is home in time to pick up the phone at random times for phone calls coming in there, killing people, putting them in SUVs to drive around the property before changing his mind, chopping them up to facilitate burning, and of course cleaning several crime scenes to thoroughly the best forensic scientists of the 21st century couldn't prove any crime was committed at all.

These burn barrels were not all at one location, but spread across the property, right?

On this map it looks like the Janda burn barrel is 60-80 yards away from the bonfire.

http://imgur.com/Y4wxd8h

 

[BigCityAccountant]

It's not entirely clear to me how many fires Steven was supposed to be starting and maintaining between all the raping and torturing, fielding phone calls and random times, making sure Brendan is home in time to pick up the phone at random times for phone calls coming in there, killing people, putting them in SUVs to drive around the property before changing his mind, chopping them up to facilitate burning, and of course cleaning several crime scenes to thoroughly the best forensic scientists of the 21st century couldn't prove any crime was committed at all.

These burn barrels were not all at one location, but spread across the property, right?

On this map it looks like the Janda burn barrel is 60-80 yards away from the bonfire.

http://imgur.com/Y4wxd8h

Hi Proudfootz!

There were 3 Janda burn barrels found in back of the Janda home. The location seems to be pretty accurate. I think the map shows them closer to the vehicles in the yard then they actually are from looking at this picture.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-52-Yanda-Dassey-burn-barrels.jpg

One burn barrel was in front of SA's house.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Exhibit-37-Avery-trailer-and-barrel.jpg

...and then there was 1 barrel that was searched at JR's deer camp.

No pictures taken of that one that I'm aware of.