The Best Untainted Evidence-The Ransom Letter

[robotdog]

because patsy was pretty freaked out when that conversation was taking place......


i think the cops saw the note pad in a picture, and it was not a real clear picture to be able to identify if it was the ramsom note but they think it was and it was still on the notepad

and patsy knew her goose might be cooked

im more convinced everytime i think of it

i think she needed a BREAK for a few minutes

she was cooked goose, she knew it

 

[trixie]

You would think her hands would be sweaty because she was a wreck and scared and that would leave fingerprints. But she feigned the same phony "Oh really?" response about no fingerprints as she did when they told her the note was written on her pad. Pure acting. She shoud have entered the MRS. AMERICA pagent. She would have won based on acting. Come to think of it i wonder why she didn't?

 

[robotdog]

This is one time when their prints SHOULD have been on an object but weren't (like the torch batteries I guess). Their pirnts on the note would have seemed normal - absence of prints should make LE go "hmmmm....."

cleaned up thanks to the super clean INTRUDER

 

[robotdog]

You would think her hands would be sweaty because she was a wreck and scared and that would leave fingerprints. But she feigned the same phony "Oh really?" response about no fingerprints as she did when they told her the note was written on her pad. Pure acting. She shoud have entered the MRS. AMERICA pagent. She would have won based on acting. Come to think of it i wonder why she didn't?

exactly and john's prints should be on it also

 

[robotdog]

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: Well, this photo 12OTET8 was on
17 your roll of file in your camera. And on the
18 same roll is the next photo, a Christmas morning
19 photo of the kids.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). Oh, God.
21 TOM HANEY: Before we, before we talk too
22 much about the next photo, if you can --
23 TRIP DeMUTH: You want to just take that
24 out for a minute?
25 TOM HANEY: Let's talk still about the
0528
1 120TET. Like I say, this was on your role of
2 film and it's not exactly the same photograph
3 that was taken by the police.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).
5 TOM HANEY: But it's, it's, it shows --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 TOM HANEY: -- pretty much, I guess, or can
8 you tell me when that would have been taken?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue why
10 anybody would take a picture like that. I don't
11 know (inaudible). Who took the picture?
12 TOM HANEY: Well, it's on your roll --
13 PATSY RAMSEY: It's on my --
14 TOM HANEY: -- of film on your camera.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.

 

[LI_Mom]

yes

but to pick something up off the floor you need to use a finger and a thumb


and yet if her story of picking it up is true, then her prints would be on
at least ONE of the papers.

total BULLCRAP ---

something aint right

The RN on laid out across the step NEVER sounded at all logical. There's a table a few feet away. There's a kitchen table where people go to make coffee in the morning.

Patsy claiming she stepped OVER a whole step & then turned around to read it NEVER sounded logical.

Patsy claiming she NEVER read the whole note NEVER made sense.

John reading a RN or ANYTHING while on his hands & knees NEVER made sense. Someone tells me that they have a RN in their hands, I grab it & run into the kitchen where there's light OR right there if it's light enough... I don't fall down and read it on the dark floor..... it's before 6:00 am in the dead of winter..... dark outside near the glass door/window.

 

[trixie]

No interest on the cat, huh? lol! He wants to lay on the keyboard because that's where my hands are. Sorry, OT.

 

[angelwngs]

http://www.acandyrose.com/04112000thomas-pg73-74.htm

Note:
-Pages 1-12 are used?/missing

-Pages 13, 14, 15, and 16 haved 'doodles' present indicating that those pages are in evidence w/BPD

-Pages 17-24 are used?/missing

-Page 25 stated "Possible Practice Note" as ink from this page bled through onto pg 26, which was the Practice note found which began, "Mr.and Mrs.".

-Page 26- Practice note

-Page 27, 28, 29 are the ransom letter

This is probably why PR freaked the "F" out when BPD showed her the pictures of the legal pad, which were taken by JR prior to JBR's death. She realized that her fingerprints should have been on the ransom letter if she had picked it up off of the stairs. She knew the picture of the legal pad tied it to their home. She knew there were other pages turned back over the top on that pad with 'doodles' or something on them.

Did she not remember what was on those pages and thought that handwriting would help to convict her?

If page 25 is a "Possible Practice Note" could pages 17-24 have also been used to practice?

Could this be one tidbit of information that BPD held back and they have paged 17-24 in evidence?

If so, this would explain PR freaking out when she saw the pictures JR took of the legal pad prior to JBR's murder. No terrorist/intruder/killer would need to flip past the 'beginning' of the legalpad to insure their prints were not on the pad. Only someone who lived in the home and had previously used the pad would need to insure their prints were not on it.
The moment the photographs of the legal pad were shown to PR she realized that the BPD knew that the killer's genuine intent in writing the ransom letter was totally exposed. PR thought she was 'going down'.

 

[UKGuy]

The RN on laid out across the step NEVER sounded at all logical. There's a table a few feet away. There's a kitchen table where people go to make coffee in the morning.

Patsy claiming she stepped OVER a whole step & then turned around to read it NEVER sounded logical.

Patsy claiming she NEVER read the whole note NEVER made sense.

John reading a RN or ANYTHING while on his hands & knees NEVER made sense. Someone tells me that they have a RN in their hands, I grab it & run into the kitchen where there's light OR right there if it's light enough... I don't fall down and read it on the dark floor..... it's before 6:00 am in the dead of winter..... dark outside near the glass door/window.

LI_Mom,
Its a recurring theme throughout the case that John magically touches very little of the forensic evidence, curious that? Its Patsy that redresses JonBenet when they arrive back from the Whites, and Patsy that discovers the ransom note. The Lounge Lizard is always trying to play a background role, offering the appearance of being on stage but not quite taking part.

The ransom note is similar to the duct tape, the garrotte, or JonBenet's size-12 Bloomingdale panties: its crime-scene staging, its purpose is to fool the gullible and explain away the inexplicable e.g. JonBenet's corpse present in their house?

 

[UKGuy]

http://www.acandyrose.com/04112000thomas-pg73-74.htm

Note:
-Pages 1-12 are used?/missing

-Pages 13, 14, 15, and 16 haved 'doodles' present indicating that those pages are in evidence w/BPD

-Pages 17-24 are used?/missing

-Page 25 stated "Possible Practice Note" as ink from this page bled through onto pg 26, which was the Practice note found which began, "Mr.and Mrs.".

-Page 26- Practice note

-Page 27, 28, 29 are the ransom letter

This is probably why PR freaked the "F" out when BPD showed her the pictures of the legal pad, which were taken by JR prior to JBR's death. She realized that her fingerprints should have been on the ransom letter if she had picked it up off of the stairs. She knew the picture of the legal pad tied it to their home. She knew there were other pages turned back over the top on that pad with 'doodles' or something on them.

Did she not remember what was on those pages and thought that handwriting would help to convict her?

If page 25 is a "Possible Practice Note" could pages 17-24 have also been used to practice?

Could this be one tidbit of information that BPD held back and they have paged 17-24 in evidence?

If so, this would explain PR freaking out when she saw the pictures JR took of the legal pad prior to JBR's murder. No terrorist/intruder/killer would need to flip past the 'beginning' of the legalpad to insure their prints were not on the pad. Only someone who lived in the home and had previously used the pad would need to insure their prints were not on it.
The moment the photographs of the legal pad were shown to PR she realized that the BPD knew that the killer's genuine intent in writing the ransom letter was totally exposed. PR thought she was 'going down'.

angelwngs,

This is probably why PR freaked the "F" out when BPD showed her the pictures of the legal pad, which were taken by JR prior to JBR's death. She realized that her fingerprints should have been on the ransom letter if she had picked it up off of the stairs. She knew the picture of the legal pad tied it to their home. She knew there were other pages turned back over the top on that pad with 'doodles' or something on them.

There was never any doubt that the legal pad originated from the Ramsey house, the Ramsey's accepted the ransom note paper came from one of their pads, there was more than one. The lack of fingerprints is not as conclusive as it appears since fingerprints are not always deposited upon paper, particularly if the persons hands are clean or just been washed.

But the total absence of any intruder dna on any of the pages of the used legal pad, but its alleged discovery inside the size-12 panties and longjohns, is at variance with an intruder who left no prints on the legal pad and whom wiped the flashlight clean both inside and outside, and left no other dna markers during his journey through the house.

 

[angelwngs]

angelwngs,

There was never any doubt that the legal pad originated from the Ramsey house, the Ramsey's accepted the ransom note paper came from one of their pads, there was more than one. The lack of fingerprints is not as conclusive as it appears since fingerprints are not always deposited upon paper, particularly if the persons hands are clean or just been washed.

But the total absence of any intruder dna on any of the pages of the used legal pad, but its alleged discovery inside the size-12 panties and longjohns, is at variance with an intruder who left no prints on the legal pad and whom wiped the flashlight clean both inside and outside, and left no other dna markers during his journey through the house.

I totally agree with your post, UK and I know that there was never any doubt about where the legal pad originated and that PR stated she bought them in quanity.

My point is that when PR saw the photograph of the legal pad and found out the picture was taken prior to JBR's murder, by her husband John, in that moment, her reaction was unscripted. It was one of the few times that her reaction and answers showed genuine emotion....IMO.

Until that moment in time, I also wonder if PR realized that fingerprints are not always deposited on paper and in reality, that it was somewhat of an evidentiary non-issue, except to ultimately point toward her guilt. That was my point.... At this moment she realized that it was her 'over-the-top cover-up' which would ultimately become her downfall.

Personally, I think at that very moment, the magnitude of PR's many acts of 'cover-up' fell on PR like a ton of bricks and she was unclear as to whether she would get away with them. I think she thought, "JR took this dam# picture and he is going to be responsible for sending me to prison." Then began the swirl of thoughts of, "How much DO the BPD 'have on me?".

 

[angelwngs]

LI_Mom,
Its a recurring theme throughout the case that John magically touches very little of the forensic evidence, curious that? Its Patsy that redresses JonBenet when they arrive back from the Whites, and Patsy that discovers the ransom note. The Lounge Lizard is always trying to play a background role, offering the appearance of being on stage but not quite taking part.

The ransom note is similar to the duct tape, the garrotte, or JonBenet's size-12 Bloomingdale panties: its crime-scene staging, its purpose is to fool the gullible and explain away the inexplicable e.g. JonBenet's corpse present in their house?

UK is your theory posted in the member's theory thread? I would love to read your entire 'take' on what went down...

 

[Grainne Dhu]

if her hands had pineapple juice on them maybe pineapple juice has magic powers that prevents fingertips being left on a piece of paper :crazy:


of course in ramsey world the laws of physics not to mention common sense
cease to exist

Trivia: people who pick or process pineapple do lose their fingerprints! The acid in the pineapple and on the rind over time and repeated exposure erodes the fingerprints as long as the person is handling them. After a person quits working with them, the fingerprints grow back in.

The process is often not complete--the fingerprints in the middle of the fingertips are eroded but the lines at the edges and on the sides remain.

This does, however, take several weeks to several months, handling pineapples 8 hours a day, so not a factor in the Ramsey case. I was just reminded of it by what you said.

 

[UKGuy]

UK is your theory posted in the member's theory thread? I would love to read your entire 'take' on what went down...

angelwngs,

Personally, I think at that very moment, the magnitude of PR's many acts of 'cover-up' fell on PR like a ton of bricks and she was unclear as to whether she would get away with them. I think she thought, "JR took this dam# picture and he is going to be responsible for sending me to prison." Then began the swirl of thoughts of, "How much DO the BPD 'have on me?".

Quite possibly or she saw something in the picture that had been removed or used in the staging process.

The moment in the case where Patsy hangs herself is during the Atlanta Interview http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm where she lies and lies again over the size-12 Bloomingdale panties, e.g. she placed them into the drawer, we let her have them etc, yet she states they were purchased for her niece Jenny. It would have been nice to be able to see her face when she was informed they were missing e.g.

8 In follow-up questions, I got the

19 impression that you felt confident that you

20 only bought one. Do you know?

21 A. I really can't remember.

22 Q. Do you recall that you did -- you

23 never mailed this pair out to --

24 A. Jenny, yes.

25 Q. Okay. So if there was an

0112

1 unopened package, it would have been left in

2 the house?

3 A. Yes.

The police here are indirectly stating that they searched the complete house and found no more size-12's, Patsy is stating they were in the house because she purchased them, and indirectly that JonBenet's killer has removed 6 pairs of clean underwear.

The killer punch follows:

11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

Patsy's Uh-huh (affirmative). here, just underlines her duplicity then she is told that no size-12's were discovered in JonBenet's panty drawer, totally undermining her account.

Now the point here is why is Patsy lying her teeth off about something she already knows about e.g. assuming she redressed JonBenet, then why does she not have a cover story ready, conclusion: she never redressed JonBenet, she is lying on someone elses behalf!

Also soon afterwards the Ramsey's magically discover a pack of size-12 Bloomingdales in an unopened packing crate, go figure ...

UK is your theory posted in the member's theory thread?

Nope its not there yet, due to lack of time, but its spread out over websleuths. Basically its a JDI, Patsy and Burke colluded in the staging and coverup, and various friends and business associates conspired to assist in this process by laying contentious evidence trails.

 

[angelwngs]

Trivia: people who pick or process pineapple do lose their fingerprints! The acid in the pineapple and on the rind over time and repeated exposure erodes the fingerprints as long as the person is handling them. After a person quits working with them, the fingerprints grow back in.

The process is often not complete--the fingerprints in the middle of the fingertips are eroded but the lines at the edges and on the sides remain.

This does, however, take several weeks to several months, handling pineapples 8 hours a day, so not a factor in the Ramsey case. I was just reminded of it by what you said.

...a pineapple picker did it...

 

[Grainne Dhu]

There was never any doubt that the legal pad originated from the Ramsey house, the Ramsey's accepted the ransom note paper came from one of their pads, there was more than one. The lack of fingerprints is not as conclusive as it appears since fingerprints are not always deposited upon paper, particularly if the persons hands are clean or just been washed.

I've read that as well. Coated papers (like the paper in glossy magazines) are really good at grabbing fingerprints. But a legal pad is uncoated paper and doesn't have the same oil-grabbing capacity.

But the total absence of any intruder dna on any of the pages of the used legal pad, but its alleged discovery inside the size-12 panties and longjohns, is at variance with an intruder who left no prints on the legal pad and whom wiped the flashlight clean both inside and outside, and left no other dna markers during his journey through the house.

Here is where I have more knowledge than fingerprints.

Paper, particularly uncoated paper, is not very good at holding onto skin cells. They get floated off the paper pretty easily.

However, no one knows yet whether the ransom note or pad had anyone's DNA on it since they have not yet been tested.

In 1996 there was no test that could use a sample of skin cells that weren't visible to the naked eye. If someone had bled onto the paper or even sneezed on it, the paper would show the marks and would be holding a lot of DNA (in effect, glued on by the liquid). I think it's fair to infer that, since there was no test for samples smaller than the naked eye could see in 1996, they didn't test for DNA at that time.

In the last two years, they have developed the test for touch DNA--microscopic amounts as small as a single skin cell. Mary Lacy was pretty clear, I think, in saying that the only item they have sent in for testing so far were the longjohns.

Now that they have found DNA in three clearly incriminating locations, I hope they are planning to send in a lot more of the evidence to be tested.

However, this will in part depend on how much money the BPD is willing or able to devote to the process. It's not cheap and the backlog of evidence to be processed, in both law enforcement and private labs, is pretty long.

I'm thinking that the BPD will "triage" the accumulated evidence and send in only part of it. Anything that was in a part of the house that was known to have been innocently visited by lots of people will probably be excluded, since finding DNA in those places is easily explained. I believe that it would make the most fiscal sense to send away for testing only evidence from places in the house where there is no innocent explanation for non-Ramsey DNA.

 

[angelwngs]

angelwngs,

Quite possibly or she saw something in the picture that had been removed or used in the staging process.

The moment in the case where Patsy hangs herself is during the Atlanta Interview http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm where she lies and lies again over the size-12 Bloomingdale panties, e.g. she placed them into the drawer, we let her have them etc, yet she states they were purchased for her niece Jenny. It would have been nice to be able to see her face when she was informed they were missing e.g.


The police here are indirectly stating that they searched the complete house and found no more size-12's, Patsy is stating they were in the house because she purchased them, and indirectly that JonBenet's killer has removed 6 pairs of clean underwear.

The killer punch follows:


Patsy's Uh-huh (affirmative). here, just underlines her duplicity then she is told that no size-12's were discovered in JonBenet's panty drawer, totally undermining her account.

Now the point here is why is Patsy lying her teeth off about something she already knows about e.g. assuming she redressed JonBenet, then why does she not have a cover story ready, conclusion: she never redressed JonBenet, she is lying on someone elses behalf!

Also soon afterwards the Ramsey's magically discover a pack of size-12 Bloomingdales in an unopened packing crate, go figure ...


Nope its not there yet, due to lack of time, but its spread out over websleuths. Basically its a JDI, Patsy and Burke colluded in the staging and coverup, and various friends and business associates conspired to assist in this process by laying contentious evidence trails.

Yep, the scarf interviews with both JR and PR were really messed up. I went to a place other than the fibers found on JBR. I went to could the scarf have been the original application used in strangulation.

The suddenly discovered unopened pack of Bloomingdale size 12's was total BS! This alone should have told BPD and the DA's office that they were lying through their teeth.

It will not take 10 seconds to copy and paste your '20 words or less theory which you just posted' in the member's theory thread. It is an excellent theory. Please post it.

 

[UKGuy]

I've read that as well. Coated papers (like the paper in glossy magazines) are really good at grabbing fingerprints. But a legal pad is uncoated paper and doesn't have the same oil-grabbing capacity.



Here is where I have more knowledge than fingerprints.

Paper, particularly uncoated paper, is not very good at holding onto skin cells. They get floated off the paper pretty easily.

However, no one knows yet whether the ransom note or pad had anyone's DNA on it since they have not yet been tested.

In 1996 there was no test that could use a sample of skin cells that weren't visible to the naked eye. If someone had bled onto the paper or even sneezed on it, the paper would show the marks and would be holding a lot of DNA (in effect, glued on by the liquid). I think it's fair to infer that, since there was no test for samples smaller than the naked eye could see in 1996, they didn't test for DNA at that time.

In the last two years, they have developed the test for touch DNA--microscopic amounts as small as a single skin cell. Mary Lacy was pretty clear, I think, in saying that the only item they have sent in for testing so far were the longjohns.

Now that they have found DNA in three clearly incriminating locations, I hope they are planning to send in a lot more of the evidence to be tested.

However, this will in part depend on how much money the BPD is willing or able to devote to the process. It's not cheap and the backlog of evidence to be processed, in both law enforcement and private labs, is pretty long.

I'm thinking that the BPD will "triage" the accumulated evidence and send in only part of it. Anything that was in a part of the house that was known to have been innocently visited by lots of people will probably be excluded, since finding DNA in those places is easily explained. I believe that it would make the most fiscal sense to send away for testing only evidence from places in the house where there is no innocent explanation for non-Ramsey DNA.

Grainne Dhu,
From memory the legal pad was contaminated with LEA prints so I guess its use in court would be contested by the defense as being inadmissable?

John has enough money to have everyone linked to the case dna tested along with evidence linked closely to JonBenet, pants, duct tape etc, some people with media links should have that as a floater question in their news articles e.g. What Price To Catch JonBenet's Killer?. Shame the Lounge Lizard into putting his hands into his pockets on JonBenet's behalf, or set up a charity page on the web requesting donations for said purpose?



.

 

[LI_Mom]

No interest on the cat, huh? lol! He wants to lay on the keyboard because that's where my hands are. Sorry, OT.

I hear you, trixie. My cat used to do that all the time. Or he'd grab my mouse & knock it off the desk. The worst part of having the cat near the computer was all the hair.

I discovered he didn't like the computer if the speakers suddenly made some sound..... a barking dog is REAL EFFECTIVE. hehe


Try one of these?

http://simplythebest.net/sounds/WAV/sound_effects_WAV/animals_wavs_2.html


Now he's content to sit in my lap & stays off the desk.

 

[LI_Mom]

LI_Mom,
Its a recurring theme throughout the case that John magically touches very little of the forensic evidence, curious that? Its Patsy that redresses JonBenet when they arrive back from the Whites, and Patsy that discovers the ransom note. The Lounge Lizard is always trying to play a background role, offering the appearance of being on stage but not quite taking part.

The ransom note is similar to the duct tape, the garrotte, or JonBenet's size-12 Bloomingdale panties: its crime-scene staging, its purpose is to fool the gullible and explain away the inexplicable e.g. JonBenet's corpse present in their house?

That's not really a red flag for me...

a mother dressing a daughter for bed while a father is busy with the older son...

a mother being up & around getting ready for an early morning trip... seeing to a few last minute details (the shirt with a stain & heading to the kitchen)...


If we found out John USUALLY headed to the kitchen before Patsy to start the coffee, then I'd wonder why a change in pattern.