The case for murder, #2

[kittychi]

I wish the Zahau family would release ALL materials they received thus far from Gore including Adam's SDSO interview along with the ENTIRE polygraph with Paul Redden.

There are just some glaring statements or non statements by Adam that I just can't dismiss. I think JS is hiding Adam's involvement.

<snipped for brevity>

I think that JS is hiding AS involvement is a very real possibility. Even the first "sale" of the mansion was bogus, when it turned out that JS was part of the group of buyers. IMO this story from November 2011 of a "sale to a group of unidentified investors" and subsequent altering of the interior was just to stop any further investigation.
http://coronado.patch.com/groups/bu...has-been-sold-zahau-shacknai-suicidbbb1703073

Later on when Anne Bremner and Martin Rudoy wanted to get into the mansion, JS okayed it if they were accompanied by police, but police would not agree to do it. (Sorry, I am still hunting for this link.)

 

[bourne]

Hmm, I'm not sure if it would be more work or not...it's not so difficult to set up. It came to mind because Gore suggested Rebecca intentionally left the knots on her wrists loose, first tying them in front and then subsequently slipping her hands out and back in behind her back (BTW, I think this is ludicrous). I'm just suggesting also suggesting that using a stick/rod would possibly create less disturbance on the balcony and rail, or maybe the murderers could have thought so. It does appear that they had less disturbance in mind... although maybe it didn't take much pre-thinking, just the least steps and so forth as they were doing it.

IMO, the perps attempt to limit the dust is more to leave a lack of evidence than make it look like a suicide.

That the perps might have used a stick or some such prop is a possibility, especially given the fact that the dad of Dina and Nina had in their earlier years owned a furniture moving store so this would be heavy-duty premeditation on the murderer(s)' parts...

However, if the perps used a stick, locating the prop inside the Spreckels mansion and then hiding it or returning the prop back to its original location (closet?) would have compound their already extensive accumulation of murder tools of paintbrushes, paint tubes, rope, knives, gloves, etc.

By the way, I highly doubt the stick was external to the Spreckels mansion -- if in fact a stick was used -- because for one, it'd have to have been a long stick, and two, it wouldn't have fit into Dina's big black purse. As far as I know, there are no purses that large that would allow the carriage of a long stick and the eyewitness family did not mention seeing her holding a long stick...unless they just didn't notice the stick?

 

[bourne]

Forgot about that.....makes you wonder if he ever really cut her down and hopped off the table to the courtyard grass. Geez...that perplexing statement - no AS fingerprint/dna on the rope - no dirty footprints atop the patio table - still no description given just how he and RZ got off the table to the courtyard grass - didn't immediately take the GAG out of her mouth when all he had to do is reach up.

If we believe KZ and Cynic's theory that Rebecca was hanged, then someone had to have cut Rebecca down. I think it's safe to assume that it was Adam since he admitted to it, and no one other than a dead Rebecca and Adam were found on the property when LE arrived minutes after Adam made the phone call.

I too wonder about the courtyard table. Such a shame LE did not photograph the top of the table nor make mention of the dust patterns on the tabletop to the public. One can only hope (maybe this is just wishful thinking) that LE did some forensic analysis of the table and may have it noted in the case files.

I can understand the lack of Adam's fingerprints/DNA on the rope because according to DNA experts, some people are poor shedders and do not leave prints/DNA and ropes are not good substances for catching prints/DNA.

As to the gag, my guess is most people, upon encountering a person hanging off a noose would cut them down first and deal with the gag later. I think getting the noose off the neck of the victim is primary, and removing a gag is secondary.

 

[kittychi]

I was looking at some old articles about this case on Coronado Patch which allows, or used to allow, commenters to post images to articles. There were several times that I saw additional photos that had been added by someone who apparently was convinced that Rebecca committed suicide. These were usually very unflattering photos of Rebecca (i.e. her mug shot, among a few others).

I reviewed this article from September 2012 at Patch today. I believe I have read every possible article in every publication that I can think of and have seen all photos, but I have never seen this photo of Max until now. IMO, it was not posted by Patch, but by someone else. IMO, someone who believes that Rebecca committed suicide because she injured Max.

Has anyone ever seen this picture of Max before?

http://coronado.patch.com/groups/po...-on-arpaio-birthers-news-media-and-31f2be984f

 

[TorisMom003]

I was looking at some old articles about this case on Coronado Patch which allows, or used to allow, commenters to post images to articles. There were several times that I saw additional photos that had been added by someone who apparently was convinced that Rebecca committed suicide. These were usually very unflattering photos of Rebecca (i.e. her mug shot, among a few others).

I reviewed this article from September 2012 at Patch today. I believe I have read every possible article in every publication that I can think of and have seen all photos, but I have never seen this photo of Max until now. IMO, it was not posted by Patch, but by someone else. IMO, someone who believes that Rebecca committed suicide because she injured Max.

Has anyone ever seen this picture of Max before?

http://coronado.patch.com/groups/po...-on-arpaio-birthers-news-media-and-31f2be984f

If you are referring to the photo of Max in the hospital with the tube in his nose, then yes, that photo has been around before. If I am not mistaken it is one of the photos that Dina herself released and was on the website that she made (or Nina made) for Maxie's House.

 

[Carioca]

I was looking at some old articles about this case on Coronado Patch which allows, or used to allow, commenters to post images to articles. There were several times that I saw additional photos that had been added by someone who apparently was convinced that Rebecca committed suicide. These were usually very unflattering photos of Rebecca (i.e. her mug shot, among a few others).

I reviewed this article from September 2012 at Patch today. I believe I have read every possible article in every publication that I can think of and have seen all photos, but I have never seen this photo of Max until now. IMO, it was not posted by Patch, but by someone else. IMO, someone who believes that Rebecca committed suicide because she injured Max.

Has anyone ever seen this picture of Max before?

http://coronado.patch.com/groups/po...-on-arpaio-birthers-news-media-and-31f2be984f

Do you mean the photo of Maxie in ICU? If so, it's the same one Dina released together with the Melnick report IIRC.

BTW on those Patch articles, anyone who is logged in can upload photos..

 

[time]

That the perps might have used a stick or some such prop is a possibility, especially given the fact that the dad of Dina and Nina had in their earlier years owned a furniture moving store so this would be heavy-duty premeditation on the murderer(s)' parts...

However, if the perps used a stick, locating the prop inside the Spreckels mansion and then hiding it or returning the prop back to its original location (closet?) would have compound their already extensive accumulation of murder tools of paintbrushes, paint tubes, rope, knives, gloves, etc.

By the way, I highly doubt the stick was external to the Spreckels mansion -- if in fact a stick was used -- because for one, it'd have to have been a long stick, and two, it wouldn't have fit into Dina's big black purse. As far as I know, there are no purses that large that would allow the carriage of a long stick and the eyewitness family did not mention seeing her holding a long stick...unless they just didn't notice the stick?

I believe a broom would work and I sincerely doubt LE checked out anything in the kitchen/broom closet. And, I'm sure D/N knew where the broom closet was. Besides, it would be easy to wipe off. I'm not stuck on that theory, just saying it's possible, not neccessarily probable. But it would also fit cause the tshirt could have been tied around it. Lever.

 

[Carioca]

As to using a stick or something similar to hoist Rebecca over the railing, it wouldn't have been needed if she was hogtied, which I've always believed was the case. Why? Due to the 86 inches of excess rope on the wrist bindings and her knees being so bent. IMO AS untied it before calling 911.

Hogtied, the killer could easily have hoisted a 100 lbs person to the railing, then tilted her over. And don't forget the other footprints found on the balcony as per Dr Godwin's report.
JMO

 

[time]

As to using a stick or something similar to hoist Rebecca over the railing, it wouldn't have been needed if she was hogtied, which I've always believed was the case. Why? Due to the 86 inches of excess rope on the wrist bindings and her knees being so bent. IMO AS untied it before calling 911.

Hogtied, the killer could easily have hoisted a 100 lbs person to the railing, then tilted her over. And don't forget the other footprints found on the balcony as per Dr Godwin's report.
JMO

Carioca, same here...I've always felt she may have been hogtied.

 

[kittychi]

If you are referring to the photo of Max in the hospital with the tube in his nose, then yes, that photo has been around before. If I am not mistaken it is one of the photos that Dina herself released and was on the website that she made (or Nina made) for Maxie's House.

Thank you, I had not seen that until today. Don't know how I missed it!

:facepalm:

 

[K_Z]

I asked only for clarification on the posts from the more scientific members here . A "yay or a nay" a murder or a suicide. I don't like to second guess others, it's never fair to do so. Therefore I simply ask when I have a question.

What their layman's opinion is beyond their very large, sometimes graphic posts most of the wording is quite medically unknown terms to the layman.

That's ALL I asked for, nothing more.

What is "their" opinion. Not yours or mine, nor others who aren't scientists, just their's alone. Suicide or murder?

I know what my opinion is already and I know I'm a layman with no expertise in medical sciences. Also, I think I explained myself enough here today. That's it for now. The curiosity has taken up enough of my time ....

Hi Leomoon80. I'm not sure if I'm one of the posters you were referring to, but I know I have posted some long posts lately, lol! Thank you, and everyone, for your patience with my longer posts. I have a tendency to want to thoroughly explain what I'm thinking, so that's why I get long winded from time to time. In addition to being a clinician, I have been a classroom and clinical educator for graduate students at a couple different universities for many years, so the "teacher" in me sometimes rears its ugly head, and I go on and on! I do apologize if I have offended you or anyone with my "teacherese".

Getting back to the thread, I am happy to share my opinion. I think Max suffered a terrible accident that produced irrecoverable injuries. I think it could have happened with him alone, him and the dog, or that other kids could have been present and involved in some kind of horseplay that lead to the fall. As I wrote 2 years ago, I believe Max died at the bottom of the stairwell, and the only reason he lived a bit longer was that he had a healthy 6 yo heart that was ultimately restarted by the epi. I don't think the police got the sequence of the fall correct, but I am far less concerned about that than most folks, because I feel so strongly that his fall was truly just a horribly tragic accident. Even if other kids were there, I don't think there was any malice involved. It is not a popular thing to criticize grieving parents, but I do hold both Jonah and Dina responsible for creating what I perceive to be a permissive atmosphere in regard to scooter safety. I think the scooter was involved as part of the fall. No parent is perfect, but I think Max's accident was preventable. I believe everyone knew that Max was playing with the scooter upstairs in the house, and by their lack of setting boundaries, Max thought this was okay to play this way.i may be completely wrong about this. But I strongly believe that both parents would have reacted VERY differently to Max's fall if they had prohibited scooter play in the house. I think Max was partly (not completely) a victim of permissive parenting that lead to an unsafe set of circumstances. And I also think Rebecca, as the GF, was powerless to voice any opposition to this kind of play, or perhaps even went along with it. I don't hold her responsible at all for his fall. The child was 6 years old in his own home. Nothing has emerged that Max had any disabilities requiring complete "eyes on" supervision of him at all times. From all indications, he was a very normal, average, active little boy. And kids do get into horrible accidents.

Now, as far as Rebecca's death, I am 100% convinced she was murdered. I believe she was murdered in retaliation for the perception that she either killed Max, or didnt do enough to help him live. I believe Dina, Nina, and Adam all know quite a bit about how she died, and i believe all 3 of them should have had criminal charges. I believe the Zahau family was correct to name them in the civil suit.

I think there was a tremendous amount of improper influence and corruption in the investigation of Rebecca's death. I'm disgusted by that.

I think that my opinions are not unique. I think the Spreckles mansion will forever be known as the place where that sweet little boy had the terrible accident, and the father's common law wife/ live in GF was viciously murdered in misplaced retaliation. There will be books in the local gift shops forever, and tour guides will whisper about the "bitter ex wife" getting away with murder. Just as other famous mansions with suspicious deaths. Very few people outside of Dina and her enablers believe Max was murdered, but nearly everyone who hears about this case, comments here or elsewhere, or follows it closely, definitely thinks Rebecca was murdered. It's a no-brainer-- just nothing fits or makes sense that it was a suicide, IMO. I was horrified at the official finding, after the horrific police conduct the day of her death. I still cannot believe she laid there nude and dead, fully exposed, for 13 hours. That's like something from a third world country, or a war zone. It's disgusting. Not even a cartel drug dealer or a deserves to be treated like that.

Anyway, another long post from me! I hope this clears up what I think! :seeya:

 

[Serpico]

KZ - I appreciate your input and the intricate medical aspects you share....the length of a post isn't relevant....only the quality so please continue in your normal manner.

 

[K_Z]

I meant to add a couple of links earlier, about 2 other "mansion murder mysteries". These happened in 1976 and 1977, and are still widely talked about in the local areas.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that 35 years from now, the deaths at the Spreckles mansion will join cases such as these in notoriety. Dina, Nina, Jonah, and Adam will always be associated with Rebecca's death, and there will always be the public cloud of suspicion that one or more of them "got away with" the gruesome murder of Rebecca. I don't think any of the 4 of them will ever escape from that heavy cloud of suspicion, even after they have passed away. It will be part of their history and legacy, as much as Rebecca's, IMO.

These are interesting stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Cullen_Davis


http://voices.yahoo.com/famous-mansion-being-converted-into-banquet-hall-498686.html?cat=54


[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glensheen_Historic_Estate"]Glensheen Historic Estate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


http://openroadadventures.biz/blog/glensheen-mansion-murders-the-real-story

 

[Inparadise]

I meant to add a couple of links earlier, about 2 other "mansion murder mysteries". These happened in 1976 and 1977, and are still widely talked about in the local areas.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that 35 years from now, the deaths at the Spreckles mansion will join cases such as these in notoriety. Dina, Nina, Jonah, and Adam will always be associated with Rebecca's death, and there will always be the public cloud of suspicion that one or more of them "got away with" the gruesome murder of Rebecca. I don't think any of the 4 of them will ever escape from that heavy cloud of suspicion, even after they have passed away. It will be part of their history and legacy, as much as Rebecca's, IMO.

These are interesting stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Cullen_Davis


http://voices.yahoo.com/famous-mansion-being-converted-into-banquet-hall-498686.html?cat=54


Glensheen Historic Estate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


http://openroadadventures.biz/blog/glensheen-mansion-murders-the-real-story

And GS will never escape the cloud of suspicion of her involvement in max's death......... IMO.

 

[*Lash*]

Do you have an opinion of the GENDER of the murderer that may have placed
RZ body on the rail?

Hi Serpico!

I don't necessarily believe Rebecca was sent over the balcony by just one person. It could have been done by two people. In my opinion, if it was only one person, either gender would be capable. Dina is a tall woman with long arms and legs, so I cannot rule her out from being just as capable as Adam. As mentioned before in this thread, the murderer may have stretched one leg and placed their foot on the bottom section of the balcony railing being careful not to leave a shoe print. I think Dina and Adam both have the legs for this suggestion. I've even considered one person was above and another below outside maybe standing on a table? The two working together to get Rebecca's body over the railing and I don't mean hoisting. The person below may have helped pull Rebecca's body over the railing.

 

[coastal]

I believe a broom would work and I sincerely doubt LE checked out anything in the kitchen/broom closet. And, I'm sure D/N knew where the broom closet was. Besides, it would be easy to wipe off. I'm not stuck on that theory, just saying it's possible, not neccessarily probable. But it would also fit cause the tshirt could have been tied around it. Lever.

whispers ((A broom could have also served as a perfect getaway vehicle...))

 

[K_Z]

I often wonder how the whole family situation would have played out if Jonah had been the only one at home when Max had his awful accident.

Would Dina and Jonah have sued the scooter manufacturer together?

Would Dina and Jonah have come together to start foundations and non profits designed to further household safety? Non profits partnering with consumer product safety groups to advocate for scooter safety for young children? Nonprofits whose goal was to be a resource for parenting education? Nonprofits whose goal was to be a positive example and a resource for successful, child centered co-parenting in blended families? Would Dina and Jonah have modeled these behaviors publicly, making public service announcements side by side, etc? I wonder.....

Or......

Would Dina have accused Jonah of murder, and "torpedoing" Max over the railing?

Would Jonah have ended up nude and hanging from the balcony, with his hands and ankles bound?

Would Adam have said "I got a guy, hung himself" to the 911 operator?

Would police have allowed a dead Jonah to lay exposed for 13 hours?

Would the ME have taken 13 hours to show up at Spreckles?

Quite frankly, if Jonah had been the only one home when Max fell, I doubt that we would have heard a thing except a single media announcement of the tragic accidental stairwell fall death of the son of Jonah Shacknai.

Dina would never have accused Jonah of anything, IMO. It is only because Rebecca was the one at home that morning that we have the debacle that goes on today. Dina's income stream depends on her leaving Jonah alone. Rebecca is the only one Dina can attack-- oh, and she can publicly accuse, bully, and intimidate a traumatized young teen. (Nice public behavior from someone who likes to call them self a child psychologist, eh?)

If Rebecca had not been the one at home, she would still be alive, and both families would be resuming their lives and grieving for the little boy who died so tragically. No one would be criticizing what Jonah fed Max, or calling him a food nazi or a secret ninja jujitsu head lock master. IMO.

It is precisely this persistent set of behaviors from Dina and her enablers that is so profoundly disturbing, and points so strongly to the vicious murder of Rebecca, IMO. Gleeful, sadistic, "retaliation", IMO.

 

[TorisMom003]

If we believe KZ and Cynic's theory that Rebecca was hanged, then someone had to have cut Rebecca down. I think it's safe to assume that it was Adam since he admitted to it, and no one other than a dead Rebecca and Adam were found on the property when LE arrived minutes after Adam made the phone call.

I too wonder about the courtyard table. Such a shame LE did not photograph the top of the table nor make mention of the dust patterns on the tabletop to the public. One can only hope (maybe this is just wishful thinking) that LE did some forensic analysis of the table and may have it noted in the case files.

I can understand the lack of Adam's fingerprints/DNA on the rope because according to DNA experts, some people are poor shedders and do not leave prints/DNA and ropes are not good substances for catching prints/DNA.

As to the gag, my guess is most people, upon encountering a person hanging off a noose would cut them down first and deal with the gag later. I think getting the noose off the neck of the victim is primary, and removing a gag is secondary.

While LE may not have taken photographs of the table, there were photos of the table that were taken as LE removed the table from the home. Unfortunately those photos appear to have been scrubbed from any news sites now. I searched for a couple of hours over the past few days for them. I also remember posting at least one of those photos in one of my own posts back in 2011, however when searching for my own posts I can't seem to go back that far to find the post. Hopefully someone else knows of a way to look, if they want to. The photos I am referring to are from the day that LE removed evidence from the mansion, when the reporters and film crews were taking pictures and filming them.

 

[Carioca]

While LE may not have taken photographs of the table, there were photos of the table that were taken as LE removed the table from the home. Unfortunately those photos appear to have been scrubbed from any news sites now. I searched for a couple of hours over the past few days for them. I also remember posting at least one of those photos in one of my own posts back in 2011, however when searching for my own posts I can't seem to go back that far to find the post. Hopefully someone else knows of a way to look, if they want to. The photos I am referring to are from the day that LE removed evidence from the mansion, when the reporters and film crews were taking pictures and filming them.

Here you go, TorisMom. The link to the video is at following - table being removed at 2:13 mark:
http://www.cbs8.com/category/155799/video-landing-page?clipId=6051306&autostart=true

 

[bourne]

While LE may not have taken photographs of the table, there were photos of the table that were taken as LE removed the table from the home. Unfortunately those photos appear to have been scrubbed from any news sites now. I searched for a couple of hours over the past few days for them. I also remember posting at least one of those photos in one of my own posts back in 2011, however when searching for my own posts I can't seem to go back that far to find the post. Hopefully someone else knows of a way to look, if they want to. The photos I am referring to are from the day that LE removed evidence from the mansion, when the reporters and film crews were taking pictures and filming them.

These are some pics showing the infamous Spreckels table I found in google images*:

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/table.jpg

http://kfmb.images.worldnow.com/images/15388199_BG1.jpg

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/table_invert.jpg

http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/670/05/670_1368804257.jpg

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/kabc_mansion_murder_110714_wg.jpg

*I think it's safe to click on these links because they are in the public domain within google. You can search for them yourself by googling "Spreckels mansion table" under "Images".