The case for murder

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And why didn't they take the thing out of her mouth, untie her hands and feet, and make her write a sad apology suicide note? What scenario makes more sense - murder to look like suicide or suicide to look like murder?

imho, and going strictly by what you typed above:

why didn't they take the thing out of her mouth? Probably because agter she was dead they had left her on her back long enough that rigot mortis was setting in her jaw (this would explain livor mortis on her back)

Untie her hands and feet? There may be marks, that would have needed to be explained, if she was found without her feet and hands bound. As it is they can not explain the tape residue.

Sad apology suicide note? It isn't an apology, it doesn't state anything about suicide. It is a riddle. Solve the riddle, solve the case.

So, murder is predominate in my mind for these and MANY other reasons/
 
A case for murder. There were two people that night. One on the property, one a few blocks away, who:

1 Had a motive, Max's injury

2 Had a family member who was very hurt/grieving, due to Max's accident

3 Had access/opportunity. AS in the guest house, able to get the knife from the main house. NR knew victim, had phone number of victim, was staying 2-5 blocks away. AS and NR also know each other and their respective family members. NR had tried to get in contact with Rebecca at 10:41, to discuss Max's accident.

4 Method. Here is the biggie! Both experienced in boating. Knew how to use rope, and tie knots.

One tip of an iceberg?
Thank you for that Sunnie, and here's my :twocents: (Continuing with the iceberg.)

Unexplained blunt force trauma to the head – 4 locations

Unexplained tape residue on both legs.

Complete absence of any marks on the face and torso of RN despite (according to the LE theory) falling head first over a sharp and unforgiving metal railing. A broken nose and multiple abrasions would be likely.

Unexplained extensive abrasions on the back or RN making it far more probable that either she went over the balcony railing upright, or was dragged over some other surface.
The LE explanation that it was the result of contact with the foliage below is unlikely, IMO.
I do believe that some marks would be likely through contact with the foliage, but I find it difficult to imagine that it would be that widespread.

This was a long drop hanging of 9 feet, 2 inches, yet there is a complete absence of spinal injuries.

The ligature furrow indicates that the placement of the ligature was above the larynx, but there is a fracture of the cricoid which is well below.

The face of RN shows very extensive petechiae. This points to venous constriction, but not arterial constriction, IOW, blood was flowing into the head but was unable to return back to the heart.
Why? As mentioned previously, this was a long drop hanging, generating tremendous force, which a rope expert estimated at 600 pounds.
This means that both arterial and venous blood flow should have been simultaneously and instantly interrupted. Was she manually strangled and the hanging staged?

Why are her feet bound? While it’s true that people committing suicide will, on occasion, tie their hands to make sure they can’t change their mind and struggle free, there is no reason, whatsoever, to bind the feet.

The complexity of the knots points to someone other than RN. Someone unfamiliar with knots would have had to do a computer search, and practice, in order to successfully be able to do what RN did. Did LE examine the relevant computers to make a determination?
There is a demonstration of how the knots were tied on the SDCSD website, but how much time and how many practice runs before that woman was able to tie that knot?

Why was she gagged? Again, this has nothing to do with suicide and everything to do with homicide.

No history of depression or suicidal ideation.

If this was suicide, RN would have to formulate a very complex and bizarre plan, including learning how to tie a complex knot in about 2 hours.

The fact that a woman has never hung herself while naked, bound and gagged should, in and of itself, tilt the investigation toward homicide.
 
Thank you for that Sunnie, and here's my :twocents: (Continuing with the iceberg.)
The fact that a woman has never hung herself while naked, bound and gagged should, in and of itself, tilt the investigation toward homicide.

Has there been a murder like this before? Murder or suicide, there are first times for everything. And one can't always box people's behavior to fill statistics so it will make one feel comfortable.
 
Has there been a murder like this before? Murder or suicide, there are first times for everything. And one can't always box people's behavior to fill statistics so it will make one feel comfortable.

You make a very good point about there being a first time for everything, although I've already posted links that show this type of suicide (woman naked, bound, hanging) has happened before.
 
You make a very good point about there being a first time for everything, although I've already posted links that show this type of suicide (woman naked, bound, hanging) has happened before.
IIRC, those were men.
Show me one where it was a suicide, by hanging, involving a female victim who was naked, and bound (both feet and legs,) and gagged.
 
IIRC, those were men.
Show me one where it was a suicide involving a female victim who was naked, and bound (both feet and legs,) and gagged.

Nope. I posted links about nude suicide hangings by women, too.
 
Nope. I posted links about nude suicide hangings by women, too.
Non EA related with all the components in play, IOW, hanging, involving a female victim who was naked, and bound (both feet and legs,) and gagged?
 
Thank you for that Sunnie, and here's my :twocents: (Continuing with the iceberg.)

Unexplained blunt force trauma to the head – 4 locations

Unexplained tape residue on both legs.

Complete absence of any marks on the face and torso of RN despite (according to the LE theory) falling head first over a sharp and unforgiving metal railing. A broken nose and multiple abrasions would be likely.

Unexplained extensive abrasions on the back or RN making it far more probable that either she went over the balcony railing upright, or was dragged over some other surface.
The LE explanation that it was the result of contact with the foliage below is unlikely, IMO.
I do believe that some marks would be likely through contact with the foliage, but I find it difficult to imagine that it would be that widespread.

This was a long drop hanging of 9 feet, 2 inches, yet there is a complete absence of spinal injuries.

The ligature furrow indicates that the placement of the ligature was above the larynx, but there is a fracture of the cricoid which is well below.

The face of RN shows very extensive petechiae. This points to venous constriction, but not arterial constriction, IOW, blood was flowing into the head but was unable to return back to the heart.
Why? As mentioned previously, this was a long drop hanging, generating tremendous force, which a rope expert estimated at 600 pounds.
This means that both arterial and venous blood flow should have been simultaneously and instantly interrupted. Was she manually strangled and the hanging staged?

Why are her feet bound? While it’s true that people committing suicide will, on occasion, tie their hands to make sure they can’t change their mind and struggle free, there is no reason, whatsoever, to bind the feet.

The complexity of the knots points to someone other than RN. Someone unfamiliar with knots would have had to do a computer search, and practice, in order to successfully be able to do what RN did. Did LE examine the relevant computers to make a determination?
There is a demonstration of how the knots were tied on the SDCSD website, but how much time and how many practice runs before that woman was able to tie that knot?

Why was she gagged? Again, this has nothing to do with suicide and everything to do with homicide.

No history of depression or suicidal ideation.

If this was suicide, RN would have to formulate a very complex and bizarre plan, including learning how to tie a complex knot in about 2 hours.

The fact that a woman has never hung herself while naked, bound and gagged should, in and of itself, tilt the investigation toward homicide.

You know Cynic, your :twocents: are worth a whole heck of a lot more than that!!

In all the evidence, ME report, material and sights that I have read, state that the fractures could possibly happen with either hanging or strangulation, but with hanging, it would have been with a smaller drop. The petechiae, on the other hand, should not have been present. As you mentioned above, a hanging causes a sudden loss of blood flow. Meaning no blood entering or leaving the brain area. Meaning of course that petechiae should not be present!

The knots are yet another piece of the puzzle that begs for further investigation. There were no computer searches on suicide or knot tying. There were no books found in the room that taught how to tie knots. Where did she learn them?

Not only is there not a spinal injury, but look at all of the injuries to the area of her neck and upper back. How would one get all of those injuries yet have no spinal cord damage?

IIRC, those were men.
Show me one where it was a suicide involving a female victim who was naked, and bound (both feet and legs,) and gagged.

In none of the links were all the aspects of this case found. I agree that the aspects of the case alone begged for additional investigation! Looking forward to hearing you on the radio program tonight!
 
Nope. I posted links about nude suicide hangings by women, too.

None of the links you posted had a woman who had been tied with her hands behind her back, her feet bound, a noose around her neck, over her hair, covered by a t-shirt, wrapped around her neck and noose three times, used as a gag also.

Oh yes, forgot to add, nude, hanging outside, in plain sight.
 
None of the links you posted had a woman who had been tied with her hands behind her back, her feet bound, a noose around her neck, over her hair, covered by a t-shirt, wrapped around her neck and noose three times, used as a gag also.

Oh yes, forgot to add, nude, hanging outside, in plain sight.

Never happened before, must be murder, right?
 
You know Cynic, your :twocents: are worth a whole heck of a lot more than that!!

In all the evidence, ME report, material and sights that I have read, state that the fractures could possibly happen with either hanging or strangulation, but with hanging, it would have been with a smaller drop. The petechiae, on the other hand, should not have been present. As you mentioned above, a hanging causes a sudden loss of blood flow. Meaning no blood entering or leaving the brain area. Meaning of course that petechiae should not be present!

The knots are yet another piece of the puzzle that begs for further investigation. There were no computer searches on suicide or knot tying. There were no books found in the room that taught how to tie knots. Where did she learn them?

Not only is there not a spinal injury, but look at all of the injuries to the area of her neck and upper back. How would one get all of those injuries yet have no spinal cord damage?



In none of the links were all the aspects of this case found. I agree that the aspects of the case alone begged for additional investigation! Looking forward to hearing you on the radio program tonight!

Thanks Sunnie, hopefully CW will address some or all of these specific issues.
 
Never happened before, must be murder, right?

How about if we say 'never happened before, lets take a closer look at this thing and not use a conversation on a cell phone from 6 months earlier and a riddle on a door, to say this is a suicide.'
 
None of the links you posted had a woman who had been tied with her hands behind her back, her feet bound, a noose around her neck, over her hair, covered by a t-shirt, wrapped around her neck and noose three times, used as a gag also.

Oh yes, forgot to add, nude, hanging outside, in plain sight.
BBM
The public display is a very important point.
This points to the element of humiliation.
 
How about if we say 'never happened before, lets take a closer look at this thing and not use a conversation on a cell phone from 6 months earlier and a riddle on a door, to say this is a suicide.'

I don't think they only used the conversation or the door message (they never called it a suicide note) to determine it was a suicide.
 
I don't think they only used the conversation or the door message (they never called it a suicide note) to determine it was a suicide.

Then what pray tell, did they use? A voicemail from JS, that was not logged by Rebecca's phone as an incoming call?

The problem is, that LE used those examples in the PC.
 
Then what pray tell, did they use? A voicemail from JS, that was not logged by Rebecca's phone as an incoming call?

The problem is, that LE used those examples in the PC.

The problem is that you (and many others here and elsewhere) believe either other evidence was contaminated or that the LE was bought or LE was influenced by wealth.
 
Then what pray tell, did they use? A voicemail from JS, that was not logged by Rebecca's phone as an incoming call?

The problem is, that LE used those examples in the PC.

Thank you, Sunnie. What I keep going back to (sigh) is the enormous amount of effort that is being spent in defending this as a suicide by many organizations and people.

The difference between suicide and murder is exponential. This woman may very well have been murdered! That is a very serious possibility and the fact that it takes WS and many others to offer up major questions that need answers is a pretty sad commentary on our justice system.

The fact that two very odd deaths were ruled as 'iron-clad' at the PC left more questions than answers. I, for one, being a reasonably intelligent person can't swallow the LE story being put out there. It's as simple as that. Just rule her suicide as undetermined at the very least. Good grief.
 
Thank you, Sunnie. What I keep going back to (sigh) is the enormous amount of effort that is being spent in defending this as a suicide by many organizations and people.
Where do you see this? What organizations? LE, when asked for more explanation, has offered it. People, I don't see many posters here or elsewhere defending it as a suicide, it's a minority view on forums and blogs. People who accepted the ruling probably moved on.
 
Where do you see this? What organizations? LE, when asked for more explanation, has offered it. People, I don't see many posters here or elsewhere defending it as a suicide, it's a minority view on forums and blogs. People who accepted the ruling probably moved on.
I will definitely be posting more soon. I have read a lot about this case and believe it is a homicide. There are many forums and threads on blogs that also follow that point of view.

Anyway, a brief hello to all(on my phone). Ty for all the great sleuthing being done here. Many people are following this case. My hope is that it is reopened and the family can receive answers they deserve.
 
I will definitely be posting more soon. I have read a lot about this case and believe it is a homicide. There are many forums and threads on blogs that also follow that point of view.

Anyway, a brief hello to all(on my phone). Ty for all the great sleuthing being done here. Many people are following this case. My hope is that it is reopened and the family can receive answers they deserve.
Welcome to Websleuths, Mombal!:
 
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