The case for murder

[Inparadise]

Yes, oddly enough, Max was cremated.

Seems very odd that Max was cremated.

 

[K_Z]

Seems very odd that Max was cremated.

Cremation is increasingly common as an option chosen by Reform Jews, or "Progressive" Jews. Orthodox Judaism expressely forbids cremation. (I doubt that the Shacknais would be described as adhering to Orthodox practices.) There is a lot of discussion on the net about the debate between cremation and burial in Judaism-- google "cremation and Judaism".

What would be more interesting to know is how common cremation is as a choice for others within the Shacknai family. Was Max the first to be cremated, or have others within the family also made the choice to be cremated? That would help to view their choice in more perspective, as it relates to their faith.

 

[iSleuth]

Cremation is increasingly common as an option chosen by Reform Jews, or "Progressive" Jews. Orthodox Judaism expressely forbids cremation. (I doubt that the Shacknais would be described as adhering to Orthodox practices.) There is a lot of discussion on the net about the debate between cremation and burial in Judaism-- google "cremation and Judaism".

What would be more interesting to know is how common cremation is as a choice for others within the Shacknai family. Was Max the first to be cremated, or have others within the family also made the choice to be cremated? That would help to view their choice in more perspective, as it relates to their faith.

Thank you so much! Those are excellent points. Especially about the rest of the family- and if any made the choice to be cremated. Can I be a verified Jewish insider on WS? LOL

I found a few articles that states that JS parents were "early settlers" in Israel and I think that may show his background is pretty traditional.



<<Shacknai told the paper he developed his sense of social responsibility while growing up in Manhattan. “There was a strong Jewish tradition in my household,” said Shacknai, who told the paper his parents were “early Zionist settlers in Palestine.”-- Shacknai also admitted to being “deeply superstitious”.>>

MS must have initially be buried in a Jewish Cemetery.

<<Dina’s family and a group of close friends accompanied her today to the Jewish cemetery to be with Max Jonah Shacknai>>

Maybe since they had already broken several traditional Jewish Laws (which does not allow a body to even be exhumed or autopsied either) they decided to cremate him?

I agree it is odd. And even if there is some discussion with in Judaism re. cremation. It is mostly not a trend.

I just think of my friends who have lost their kids who spend many days a year at their gravesite. They literally go for hours and hours. frequently not only when it is required by the jewish calendar to visit the gravesite and or light a yarzheit "memorial "candle.

( I am pretty old and know too many people who have passed ) I only know one person who has been cremated- my ex father in law ( he was reform) but I will say it was radical and a big shock to his family and religious community.

 

[Inparadise]

Cremation is increasingly common as an option chosen by Reform Jews, or "Progressive" Jews. Orthodox Judaism expressely forbids cremation. (I doubt that the Shacknais would be described as adhering to Orthodox practices.) There is a lot of discussion on the net about the debate between cremation and burial in Judaism-- google "cremation and Judaism".

What would be more interesting to know is how common cremation is as a choice for others within the Shacknai family. Was Max the first to be cremated, or have others within the family also made the choice to be cremated? That would help to view their choice in more perspective, as it relates to their faith.

Jonah had an uncle that was a Rabbi, Shai Shacknai, who passed away several years ago.

 

[Inparadise]

Thank you so much! Those are excellent points. Especially about the rest of the family- and if any made the choice to be cremated. Can I be a verified Jewish insider on WS? LOL

I found a few articles that states that JS parents were "early settlers" in Israel and I think that may show his background is pretty traditional.



<<Shacknai told the paper he developed his sense of social responsibility while growing up in Manhattan. “There was a strong Jewish tradition in my household,” said Shacknai, who told the paper his parents were “early Zionist settlers in Palestine.”-- Shacknai also admitted to being “deeply superstitious”.>>

MS must have initially be buried in a Jewish Cemetery

<<Dina’s family and a group of close friends accompanied her today to the Jewish cemetery to be with Max Jonah Shacknai>>

Maybe since they had already broken several traditional Jewish Laws (which does not allow a body to even be exhumed or autopsied either) they decided to cremate him?

I agree it is odd. And even if there is some discussion with in Judaism re. cremation. It is mostly not a trend.

I just think of my friends who have lost their kids who spend many days a year at their gravesite. They literally go for hours and hours. frequently not only when it is required by the jewish calendar to visit the gravesite and or light a yarzheit "memorial "candle.

( I am pretty old and know too many people who have passed ) I only know one person who has been cremated- my ex father in law ( he was reform) but I will say it was radical and a big shock to his family and religious community.

The ME's office turned over Max's body to a Jewish Mortuary......it's in the report, will have to go back and note the name of the mortuary.

 

[freespeech]

Thank you so much! Those are excellent points. Especially about the rest of the family- and if any made the choice to be cremated. Can I be a verified Jewish insider on WS? LOL

I found a few articles that states that JS parents were "early settlers" in Israel and I think that may show his background is pretty traditional.

<<Shacknai told the paper he developed his sense of social responsibility while growing up in Manhattan. “There was a strong Jewish tradition in my household,” said Shacknai, who told the paper his parents were “early Zionist settlers in Palestine.”-- Shacknai also admitted to being “deeply superstitious”.>>

MS must have initially be buried in a Jewish Cemetery.

<<Dina’s family and a group of close friends accompanied her today to the Jewish cemetery to be with Max Jonah Shacknai>>

Maybe since they had already broken several traditional Jewish Laws (which does not allow a body to even be exhumed or autopsied either) they decided to cremate him?

I agree it is odd. And even if there is some discussion with in Judaism re. cremation. It is mostly not a trend.

I just think of my friends who have lost their kids who spend many days a year at their gravesite. They literally go for hours and hours. frequently not only when it is required by the jewish calendar to visit the gravesite and or light a yarzheit "memorial "candle.

I am pretty old and know too many people who have passed ) I only know one person who has been cremated- my ex father in law ( he was reform) but I will say it was radical and a big shock to his family and religious community.

Thank you for the insight. Their choice to cremate makes one wonder.

Jonah may be more traditional but wasn't Dina a convert and if so did she convert because of personal conviction or did Jonah request it? I wonder if they practiced the religion during their marriage and whether either of them practice now.

Does anyone know if Jonah practiced Judaism when he was with Kimberly and Rebecca? If so does he still practice.

Is Kimberly Jewish? If so does she and her children practice? There was a Bar Mitzvah for Jonah's oldest son. Did his daughter have a Bat Mitzvah?

These are interesting questions that can shed light onto the family cultural enviroment. It doesn't seem that they are strictly practicing. Like many people they seem to practice significant elements of the religion that have the greatest social/community impact like a conversions or celebrating a Bar Mitzvah.

However, this type of outward show does not reflect whether there is a commitment to the tenets of the religion. Whether they cremate or not would possibly be a better indicator of commitment, no?

Also, how does Jonah's superstitious beliefs relate to his religious practice? Does he only practice, if he does, because of them or are they separate from his religious beliefs?

Sorry for the digression but I find this topic fascinating so any information and insight you have is always appreciated.

 

[Inparadise]

Thank you for the insight. Their choice to cremate makes one wonder.

Jonah may be more traditional but wasn't Dina a convert and if so did she convert because of personal conviction or did Jonah request it? I wonder if they practiced the religion during their marriage and whether either of them practice now.

Does anyone know if Jonah practiced Judaism when he was with Kimberly and Rebecca? If so does he still practice.

Is Kimberly Jewish? If so does she and her children practice? There was a Bar Mitzvah for Jonah's oldest son. Did his daughter have a Bat Mitzvah?

These are interesting questions that can shed light onto the family cultural enviroment. It doesn't seem that they are strictly practicing. Like many people they seem to practice significant elements of the religion that have the greatest social/community impact like a conversions or celebrating a Bar Mitzvah.

However, this type of outward show does not reflect whether there is a commitment to the tenets of the religion. Whether they cremate or not would possibly be a better indicator of commitment, no?

Also, how does Jonah's superstitious beliefs relate to his religious practice? Does he only practice, if he does, because of them or are they separate from his religious beliefs?

Sorry for the digression but I find this topic fascinating so any information and insight you have is always appreciated.

Kimberly converted to Judaism, as did Dina (who was raised Roman Catholic). And yes, GS was Bat Mitzvah'd.

 

[iSleuth]

Thank you for the insight. Their choice to cremate makes one wonder.

Jonah may be more traditional but wasn't Dina a convert and if so did she convert because of personal conviction or did Jonah request it? I wonder if they practiced the religion during their marriage and whether either of them practice now.

Does anyone know if Jonah practiced Judaism when he was with Kimberly and Rebecca? If so does he still practice.

Is Kimberly Jewish? If so does she and her children practice? There was a Bar Mitzvah for Jonah's oldest son. Did his daughter have a Bat Mitzvah?

These are interesting questions that can shed light onto the family cultural enviroment. It doesn't seem that they are strictly practicing. Like many people they seem to practice significant elements of the religion that have the greatest social/community impact like a conversions or celebrating a Bar Mitzvah.

However, this type of outward show does not reflect whether there is a commitment to the tenets of the religion. Whether they cremate or not would possibly be a better indicator of commitment, no?

Also, how does Jonah's superstitious beliefs relate to his religious practice? Does he only practice, if he does, because of them or are they separate from his religious beliefs?

Sorry for the digression but I find this topic fascinating so any information and insight you have is always appreciated.

I was shocked to learn about the cremation and has led me to search around for their background even more. My uncle was also a (very modern but conservative) Rabbi. The Shacknai family is reformed. or atleast the uncle was a reformed rabbi in wayne, nj.

The reason my ex- father in law chose cremation was a complicated one. But i believe it had something to do with picking the actual place where we would visit his grave- being that he and my ex mother in law were divorced. They originally had cemetery plots reserved- in fact. When he was remarried he had a stroke and made some very strange decisions. That was just one that was truly out of character. With that said ...he was very involved with Modern Reform Jewish Movement and was president of Hebrew Union College in NYC for quite some time.

This is JMOO but, given the nature of things and this case, and whatever Jewish cultural heritage they had at all- even if at all- even the tiniest bit- With the death of a child... all I can think, is the only reason they would have him cremated would be to end the case, and the questions and the evidence re. MS's accidental ( ?) death once and for all.
:-(
I am sorry but That is my opinion.

Just like the carpet, and the trees and the entire mansion renovation.
segue alert....Just like the Celis family redecorating Isabel's bedroom. To destroy evidence.

:banghead:

 

[K_Z]

Max's body was released to the AM Israel Mortuary (presumably in San Diego), according to the autopsy report.

http://www.maxshacknai.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ms_autopsy.pdf

The autopsy, btw, was required by law by the circumstances of his death (not necessarily a choice of Dina and Jonah)-- which was still under investigation at the time of his death. Organ/ tissue donation would have had to be approved by LE authorities in advance.

Link to AM Israel, which specializes in serving families of Jewish faith. They do not appear to offer cremation services. There is a lot of interesting information on their website about cultural practices, etc.

http://www.amisraelmortuary.com/Our_Firm_233611.html

 

[iSleuth]

Max's body was released to the AM Israel Mortuary (presumably in San Diego), according to the autopsy report.

http://www.maxshacknai.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ms_autopsy.pdf

The autopsy, btw, was required by law by the circumstances of his death (not necessarily a choice of Dina and Jonah)-- which was still under investigation at the time of his death. Organ/ tissue donation would have had to be approved by LE authorities in advance.

Link to AM Israel, which specializes in serving families of Jewish faith. They do not appear to offer cremation services. There is a lot of interesting information on their website about cultural practices, etc.

http://www.amisraelmortuary.com/Our_Firm_233611.html

oh I know that does happen - definitely- if there is any question- concerning the cause of death- this will over ride the family's beliefs and religious values, and there will be an autopsy. That happened to my friends, their 5 year old daughter had an autoimmune disease and died very suddenly in '95. She died in the arms of her parents, and several hospital staff members during an evaluation. :-( I think the Hospital did not even need their permission or anything.

 

[time]

IMO, Adam was brought in for a specific purpose........he and his brother were not close. If we knew who made/paid for the plane reservations, and when they were made, that would speak volumes.........interestingly, Adam flew coach, which I found to be surprising..........

Picky question, but do you know if Adam flew in on Southwest?

I really wonder if Adam was flown in mostly because they knew Max was not going to make it. Coming to 'support his brother' could just mean it was appropriate for the family to make a showing in a case where a close family member is near death. I don't know, it would be that way in my family and I kind of doubt, in this case, that Adam would have flown in had Max's condition been something like 'critical' but with a good possibility of recovering. Hope I am making sense. As far as flying coach, could be the only seats available given a short notice?

 

[time]

Every time I read something about that absurd basis for a "law"-- entitling an ex-spouse to do background checks on the new love interest/s (ROFLMAO!), I wonder how the whole thing would have gone if REBECCA was entitled to a background investigation on DINA?? All of the domestic violence police reports, etc. Just imagine if Rebecca had confronted DINA about all of THAT during their little meeting at Starbucks??

Let's pretend how that might have gone.

"So Dina, I understand police were called 13 times to your home in Paradise Valley? And how many times did little Max witness that?"

"Can you tell me more about the time you tried to choke Jonah?"

"Can you discuss your use of prescription drugs and alcohol?"

"Can you tell me more about what happened when you caused Jonah to have a broken finger?"

"Have you ever hit Max or abused him?"

"Can you explain more to me about why you defaulted on a $32,500 rent payment in La Jolla?"

"Why did you reach in a car window and try to pull the car keys out of a car Jonah was driving?"

"Can you tell me more about your career, your education, and your failure to obtain a professional license in psychology?"

"What are the terms of your divorce from Jonah that are sealed? I have a vested interest in knowing how all that was settled."

"Why are you still using Jonah's last name if you had such an acrimonious ending to your marriage? Why haven't you changed your last name?"

WELL DONE! :floorlaugh:

Plus, add a few more questions like that of IP's! Seeing all those questions in a list makes me realize even more that I would be afraid of Dina if I came across her path.

 

[Inparadise]

Picky question, but do you know if Adam flew in on Southwest?

I really wonder if Adam was flown in mostly because they knew Max was not going to make it. Coming to 'support his brother' could just mean it was appropriate for the family to make a showing in a case where a close family member is near death. I don't know, it would be that way in my family and I kind of doubt, in this case, that Adam would have flown in had Max's condition been something like 'critical' but with a good possibility of recovering. Hope I am making sense. As far as flying coach, could be the only seats available given a short notice?

Adam flew into and out of San Diego on Continental Airlines via Houston. Why did Jonah's father and step-mother not make the trip? They were in Coronado for Max's birthday in June.....

 

[time]

Adam flew into and out of San Diego on Continental Airlines via Houston. Why did Jonah's father and step-mother not make the trip? They were in Coronado for Max's birthday in June.....

Thanks IP! I have no idea why they did not make the trip. I think they had talked with Rebecca on the phone Monday or Tuesday - it's on her phone bill IIRC. Maybe they WERE going to fly in on Thurs or Fri, but due to Rebecca's death, didn't? I think another explanation is entirely possible - they also knew Max was not going to make it and did not want to see him in that condition. Or one of them maybe didn't feel well? Wonder if they attended Max's funeral.

 

[freespeech]

Thanks IP! I have no idea why they did not make the trip. I think they had talked with Rebecca on the phone Monday or Tuesday - it's on her phone bill IIRC. Maybe they WERE going to fly in on Thurs or Fri, but due to Rebecca's death, didn't? I think another explanation is entirely possible - they also knew Max was not going to make it and did not want to see him in that condition. Or one of them maybe didn't feel well? Wonder if they attended Max's funeral.

They are also elderly so the stress would have been bad for them. The flight would have been long and then seeing Max in ICU would have been to much.

I would not have allowed my elderly parent to come either. Asking a younger and healthy sibling to help out is more appropriate, imo. The question is how did Adam and Nina actually support their siblings. Nina's role was more clearly apparent than Adam's purpose, imo.

 

[Inparadise]

They are also elderly so the stress would have been bad for them. The flight would have been long and then seeing Max in ICU would have been to much.

I would not have allowed my elderly parent to come either. Asking a younger and healthy sibling to help out is more appropriate, imo. The question is how did Adam and Nina actually support their siblings. Nina's role was more clearly apparent than Adam's purpose, imo.

Jonah's father is in his early 80s, and the step-mother is around 65......in pics of them that I have seen they look to be in good shape and appear active. The father is a painter BTW.

 

[bourne]

They are also elderly so the stress would have been bad for them. The flight would have been long and then seeing Max in ICU would have been to much.

I would not have allowed my elderly parent to come either. Asking a younger and healthy sibling to help out is more appropriate, imo. The question is how did Adam and Nina actually support their siblings. Nina's role was more clearly apparent than Adam's purpose, imo.

Agree, although their flight trek to Max's funeral was long as well. (I assume they attended as they likely would want to say their last goodbyes to their adorable grandson and have some closure).

Agree also that Nina appeared much more supportive to Dina than Adam to Jonah. At least Nina stayed at the hospital visiting Max longer. How long did Adam actually visit with Max, if at all? It seemed like Rebecca dropped Adam off at the hospital only to pick up Jonah and Dr. Howard from there to go to dinner, no? Adam also spent only dinnertime with Jonah before Rebecca chauffeured him to the Spreckels mansion to sleep (and watch ) for the night and into the morning.

 

[freespeech]

Jonah's father is in his early 80s, and the step-mother is around 65......in pics of them that I have seen they look to be in good shape and appear active. The father is a painter BTW.

A house painter or an artist painter?

 

[Inparadise]

A house painter or an artist painter?

Artist.......

 

[freespeech]

Agree, although their flight trek to Max's funeral was long as well. (I assume they attended as they likely would want to say their last goodbyes to their adorable grandson and have some closure).

Agree also that Nina appeared much more supportive to Dina than Adam to Jonah. At least Nina stayed at the hospital visiting Max longer. How long did Adam actually visit with Max, if at all? It seemed like Rebecca dropped Adam off at the hospital only to pick up Jonah and Dr. Howard from there to go to dinner, no? Adam also spent only dinnertime with Jonah before Rebecca chauffeured him to the Spreckels mansion to sleep (and watch ) for the night and into the morning.

I haven't found a valid reason yet why Adam was ruled out as a POI. He doesn't have a "decent" alibi. He had access to the house and computer at 3:00 AM the morning of her death and he was up and about prowling around at 6:30 AM. Also, Adam did not pass the LDT with "flying colors" as was told to Mary. So why was he ruled out?