The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[Deleted member 172065]

No other motive for JonBenet's supposed kidnapping/killing has ever been found. In fact, only the ransom letter brings up any ulterior motives

Getting a Grand Jury indictment is nothing. Did you know that Dr. Henry Lee and some Boulder police voted unanimously for Alex Hunter not to indict the Ramsey's regardless of the Grand Jury decision?

If the grand jury indicts, they should be indicted. If it was up to the DA to indict, why even have a grand jury?! The DA even covered up the fact that there WAS an indictment. The DA wouldn't allow phone records to be investigates, or to let Dr spritz and others to investigate, nor did they do normal interrogation of the parents. This is a cover up, cover up, and more cover up.

 

[vulture]

Many people believe grand juries will "indict a ham sandwich" if that's what the prosecutor wants. I've never served on one, or any jury. I would want to see what evidence the Grand Jury saw before I decide, but of course I won't since GJ's are secret. I know something about the political climate of Boulder because I lived in Colorado for a couple of years and used to subscribe to several underground publications produced in Boulder. Wherever you live, you don't need any reason other than to be rich for people to hate you, and sexual murders, well no rational person understands that but it happens all the time. So I need more evidence to convince me one way or the other, and I don't think we have enough. I know which way I lean, but I'm not certain. I used to lean in the PR direction but I realized I leaned in that direction from media coverage only. Whatever angle the media gets behind, that ends up being what most people believe. When I realized most of what the media reported was not true, I changed which way I lean but I don't think we have enough evidence to be certain either way. I haven't seen the Burke special, I don't subscribe to the right channels to watch it, but I've thought for a long time that it was more plausible that he did it than either of the parents. The ransom note does fit in, in my opinion, with the type of person I think did it and I don't think that person is a family member. But I don't know for sure. We all see the same evidence differently based on what kind of lives we have led up to now and what we have seen and learned. That's why both sides want to control who gets on a jury, right? I wish we had all the evidence the police have but we don't, and what they do have doesn't seem to be enough anyway. I think some people have accepted the contents of police questions as evidence but questions aren't evidence because the police can lie. The media has muddied the waters a lot too I think. I kind of wish Burke did do it because that would mean it's unlikely that there have been or will be any more victims.

 

[johnjay]

It is not "nothing." I do believe that Alex Hunter as well as some of the BPD realized that Burke had committed the murder yet could not be convicted and that it would do no one any good to prosecute his parents after the fact. The case is a mess from start to finish. The parents made the wrong decision that morning and many thereafter.

Yes, I think many involved realized what happened. Burke was getting psychological help, they thought it best to not reveal the rest to the public. That's why it was so important not to sign the GJ indictment. Once that was signed the law required the additional information to be released. All the Ramsey secrets would be out in the public then.

While I understand how they could think that way, I think they made the wrong decision. Society would have been better off if people understood more about how this happened. Some people would have been more likely to take serous the violent behavior of their children - maybe it wouldn't have helped prevent a lot of murders, but it might have helped prevent a lot of sibling abuse.

And from what I've seen of Burke, the way they handled this didn't help him very much.

 

[Heymom]

On one of Tricia's radio programs Kolar suggested she was hit in the head upstairs and carried down to the basement for the rest. He thought Burke was physically cable of doing that, as I recall.

That is what came through in the CBS show - that the head strike happened in the kitchen as the pineapple snack was taking place. And that could account for Burke's stating that "someone took her quietly downstairs" statement in his psychiatric interview. If there was evidence to suggest the kitchen as the place of the head strike, we will likely never know that.

I can't say it didn't happen that way. Until I read Chief Kolar's book, I struggled with BDI. So I really can't discount that version of events.

 

[SecretaryGal]

Ah, but if it makes perfect sense, then why is it that I read so many different versions from the posters here that are 100% convinced that Jonbenet died at the hands of her family.

Burke hit her on the head. John had been sexually molesting her and finally killed her to cover it up. Patsy killed her in a rage over bedwetting. Burke tied her up. John tied her up. Patsy tied her up. John wrote the letter. No, he dictated it. No, he slept through it while Patsy did it. Read the posts. There are so many versions, and thats one reason why I find it hard to make perfect sense out of it. If it makes perfect sense, it shouldn't be this muddled.

Brendon,

Obviously none of us were there, but 4 other people were.

Every little detail is up for speculation because of all the contamination that took place in that house.

The facts, though, are not muddled:

1 person is dead

2 people received true bills by Grand Jury relating to covering up homicide of their daughter by another party.

And hence, that leaves the third person as the culprit.

To me it does make perfect sense.

 

[johnjay]

It's not even circumstantial evidence of an intruder.

It's evidence that cord was used, is all it is.

No one can suppose that it was more likely to be cord already in the house or cord brought in by a stranger. It's of no value to either theory.

I have all kinds of odds and ends of things in my house. Cords, pieces of tape - no one could prove I bought these things - I'm not thinking an intruder put them there - no no.

 

[SecretaryGal]

So little evidence of an intruder. None, really. Well, a few things. The cord was never proven conclusively to be from the home. And traces of it was found on Jonbenet's bed. That is the only bit of evidence I found. Of course, unless they had 5 or 6 video cameras around the home, there is no way of being 100% sure. Even Mark Beckner said there is some evidence that it could be an intruder, and he believes it was the Ramsey's I think.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...-Mark-Beckner%92s-Q-amp-A-February-21-22-2015

traces of what was found in her bed?
:thinking:

 

[Heymom]

Many people believe grand juries will "indict a ham sandwich" if that's what the prosecutor wants. I've never served on one, or any jury. I would want to see what evidence the Grand Jury saw before I decide, but of course I won't since GJ's are secret. I know something about the political climate of Boulder because I lived in Colorado for a couple of years and used to subscribe to several underground publications produced in Boulder. Wherever you live, you don't need any reason other than to be rich for people to hate you, and sexual murders, well no rational person understands that but it happens all the time. So I need more evidence to convince me one way or the other, and I don't think we have enough. I know which way I lean, but I'm not certain. I used to lean in the PR direction but I realized I leaned in that direction from media coverage only. Whatever angle the media gets behind, that ends up being what most people believe. When I realized most of what the media reported was not true, I changed which way I lean but I don't think we have enough evidence to be certain either way. I haven't seen the Burke special, I don't subscribe to the right channels to watch it, but I've thought for a long time that it was more plausible that he did it than either of the parents. The ransom note does fit in, in my opinion, with the type of person I think did it and I don't think that person is a family member. But I don't know for sure. We all see the same evidence differently based on what kind of lives we have led up to now and what we have seen and learned. That's why both sides want to control who gets on a jury, right? I wish we had all the evidence the police have but we don't, and what they do have doesn't seem to be enough anyway. I think some people have accepted the contents of police questions as evidence but questions aren't evidence because the police can lie. The media has muddied the waters a lot too I think. I kind of wish Burke did do it because that would mean it's unlikely that there have been or will be any more victims.

I have served on a murder jury, and we convicted based on circumstantial evidence. Most evidence *is* circumstantial. Fake crime shows like CSI have ruined a lot of the public for murder juries because they always want the "smoking gun" kind of evidence that is included in those shows. There were 2 jurors that did not want to convict and we had to go through the entire case just for them again, and after we did that, they agreed that the suspect had most likely committed the crime. LE did not have the gun as evidence.

There was a LOT of evidence in the Ramsey case. The GJ went through all of it, as did Chief Kolar, and several others. They also talked to 30 people including Burke. They reached the conclusion that 1st degree murder had been committed, and that both parents were both negligent in preventing it, as well as helping to cover it up after the fact. I am going to trust that they had good reasons for coming up with those indictments.

 

[Heymom]

Brendon,

Obviously none of us were there, but 4 other people were.

Every little detail is up for speculation because of all the contamination that took place in that house.

The facts, though, are not muddled:

1 person is dead

2 people received true bills by Grand Jury relating to covering up homicide of their daughter by another party.

And hence, that leaves the third person as the culprit.

To me it does make perfect sense.

:laughing:

 

[chlban]

It was the Barnhills who kept little Jacques. Bichon frises are timid little dogs who sometimes piddle when excited, so that could have been one problem that got the dog sent away. That house must have been in chaos a lot of the time, judging by the condition it was usually in. How they thought they'd have the time and energy to take proper care of a dog, I have no idea.

There has been nothing stated about Burke doing anything to the dog, but it's a possibility with a case like this. If so, it is tragic how the dog was protected by removing him from the house, but JonBenet was left vulnerable.

Thanks. I hope the Barnhills kept the dog permanently. Was that the same neighbor where John kept the Bike until Christmas Eve? You know, I always assumed the dog just got sent away because he was just a prop for Patsy's "perfect family" image, but if Burke was violent, it could have been more than that.

 

[Brendon]

It's not even circumstantial evidence of an intruder.

It's evidence that cord was used, is all it is.

No one can suppose that it was more likely to be cord already in the house or cord brought in by a stranger. It's of no value to either theory.

Well, some people thought it was circumstantial evidence of an intruder.

 

[Brendon]

traces of what was found in her bed?
:thinking:

Of the cord that was used to tie and strangle her.

 

[ElleElle]

My fiancee is from overseas and has never heard of this case, up until A&E, ID and CBS aired them.

He cannot figure who did it, but the thing that sticks out to him the most is the RN. He does not believe any intruder would do this. And he has fresh eyes to this. He is also unsure if BDI, the parents did it as well.

I think if the RN was not involved, it would be much easier to clear the Ramsey's.

 

[mauidreemn]

One would think that in 1996, having someone phone number is pretty easy.

 

[Roy23]

Why would a doctor be voting? Just curious.

Dr. Lee is a blood spatter and DNA expert. He along with Boulder PD who believe the Ramsey's did it were on a committee to advise the DA office. So even though the GJ decision they didn't believe the risk of getting a conviction was worth the risk of never being able to try the case. Once the Ramsey's were acquitted they could never go back and try them again. They wanted to continue to investigate in hopes of having more evidence that might give them a better chance at a conviction. Essentially, it was probably the only thing good or smart that Alex Hunter ever did.

 

[mauidreemn]

what i find weird is that some here are hinting that the ramseys werent worried about BR because of something the "kidnappers" said in the note. like it was gospel, so they need not worry.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Burke is safest in his room. Police, family, friends, etc were all downstairs. Maybe he would have been safer at the police station? I don't know but seems to me Burke was in one of the most safest places.

 

[Roy23]

It's not even circumstantial evidence of an intruder.

It's evidence that cord was used, is all it is.

No one can suppose that it was more likely to be cord already in the house or cord brought in by a stranger. It's of no value to either theory.

Lot's of circumstancial evidence of an intruder. You don't think having Lou Smit and maybe even John Douglas on a witness stand wouldn't mean anything. I am not saying it is not RDI. I am saying they would have a hard time getting a conviction without a confession. And once the Ramsey's got acquitted they are free from seeing the court room ever again.

 

[chlban]

All good points so maybe he was being truthful about the window?

I always thought he was

 

[TeaTime]

Ah, but if it makes perfect sense, then why is it that I read so many different versions from the posters here that are 100% convinced that Jonbenet died at the hands of her family.

Burke hit her on the head. John had been sexually molesting her and finally killed her to cover it up. Patsy killed her in a rage over bedwetting. Burke tied her up. John tied her up. Patsy tied her up. John wrote the letter. No, he dictated it. No, he slept through it while Patsy did it. Read the posts. There are so many versions, and thats one reason why I find it hard to make perfect sense out of it. If it makes perfect sense, it shouldn't be this muddled.

The facts that lead the RDI group to believe that she was killed by a family member are too numerous to list here. Precisely who hit her on the head with an object, or what the object was, continued to be argued back and forth with all sorts of theories until we learned that JR used the flashlight to put BR to bed, BR got up after everyone was asleep, BR had HiTech boots, Dr. Spitz demonstrated that the wiped-down flashlight was a match to the wound and that a 10 year old could easily inflict that kind of damage.

The autopsy report revealed 'chronic' sexual abuse and recent abuse but was unable to ID the culprit. That evidence along with all that confirms RDI lead to speculation as to who would have perpetrated these crimes against JBR. Little was known about BR and he was said to be asleep all night, so the speculation focused on the two adults. Some suggested JR was a child molester, some suggested PR was douching the child. The majority of child molesters are men, so naturally suspicion rested with JR. Then we see finally see BR in the early interviews from 18 years ago, the more recent interview on DP and his odd behavior combined with the books found in the house regarding sexually aggressive children and "Why Johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong", which we add to the HiTech boots, the use of the wiped-down flashlight and sneaking downstairs in the night, the fecal smearing and the focus comes off of JR and points to BR in an "aha" moment. The change is due to more recently acquired information.

Theories are fluid and change when new information is acquired. This is true for all theories. It is especially true for us armchair sleuths who are privy to very limited information. Like that of any good detective, our theory changes as the investigation continues and more evidence is revealed. Surely, you would not expect any theory made in the first month should be held fast despite evidence that leads elsewhere.

Since PR's sweater/jacket fibers were found entwined in the cording, in the paint tray from which the noose stick came, and on the sticky side of the duct tape over the child's mouth, it is not unreasonable to suggest or even to state with authority that PR fashioned the noose and strangled the child. Absent any information regarding the DNA found on the cord, the logical conclusion is that PR applied the final insult to the child. Is anyone 100% sure? No. Is it more reasonable than not that PR did it? Yes, based on hard evidence.

However, we can not forget the evidence of fibers from JR's shirt found on JBR's body/underpants which could not happen from him carrying her dead body up the stairs. Does this mean he was present during the clean up or that the panties came into contact with his shirt? Impossible to tell. I tend to think that these fibers were, like the unidentified tDNA, simply artifacts.

It was long thought that the vaginal injuries observed as 'fresh' in autopsy were to cover up the chronic nature of the sexual molestation. Drs. Spitz and Lee discount any sexual assault at all. They discount any sexual motivation to the crime which may work to negate all theories regarding JR, BR or PR causing damage to JBR's vagina. Again, theories are fluid. A working theory based soley on the autopsy report must necessarily change if Dr.s Spitz's and Lee's opinions withstand vigorous cross exam.

No one ever thought JR wrote the letter as his handwriting was ruled out immediately. But, because of the "Listen carefully!" sentence, some thought that is was dictated and written literally and therefore JR was involved in the RN. Personally, as PR was the drama queen and JR the level headed pilot, I do not think JR had anything to do with the over-done RN other than maybe instructing PR to write one in a disguised handwriting. I am not even sure that JR knew anything until he awoke that morning. His part in the cover up may have started with a light-bulb moment when he realized that PR wrote the note or after he found the body. "It's an inside job", "I don't think he meant to kill her, he wrapped her in a blanket" seem to point to him realizing that someone in the house killed her and that 'he' did not do it intentionally. The only other male in the house was BR and no parent would ever think a perverted, sick, twisted intruder killed the child by accident..

Bottom line, there is no evidence that supports the intruder theory but mountains to support RDI. New evidence suggests that BDI is the most likely and most reasonable conclusion. It makes perfect sense and many of the puzzle pieces now fit. The details of exactly who did what, what part each member of the family played or who knew what and when may never be known. The Ramseys did not cooperate with LE then and still do not cooperate with LE to help solve the murder of JBR so many questions will remain. What we do know is that they lied.

What was it that smug Dr. Phaux told Terri Harmon just 2 days after the Ramsey show? "People with nothing to hide, hide nothing." I suppose that does not apply to the Ramseys, they hid plenty.

Some theories are more probable than not. Whether they rise to proof beyond a reasonable doubt is for the trier of fact after all admissible evidence is presented. We are not in that position, thus theories morphed along the way. In my opinion, the most reasonable conclusion is BDI and both parents conspired to thwart resolution. Seems the GJ thought the same.

 

[johnjay]

Well Lin Woods is all fired up and giving his point of view of the show in an interview with yahoo.

You can find it on his twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/LLinWood?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author


Hmmm. Sounds like he'll be asking for way more than $150M!

I'm betting Burke is smiling. But he didn't watch the CBS show according to Lin Wood.