The complicity of Patsy in coverup.

[Let_Forever_Be]

Welcome to the forum, LFB!

Yes he did. But what he said was "ligature strangulation associated with blunt force trauma to the head. Mayer was unable to determine which came first but both were listed as causes of death and both contributed to her death. Her autopsy determined that she was alive when she was strangled and also alive (for a brief time) after she was hit on the head.
IMO, her head bash came first, possibly to silence her after her scream. Then, when she collapsed (possibly into a coma- that was a VERY severe fracture), her death was seen as inevitable. But one problem- if they'd called 911 at that point, the head bash was the ONLY cause of death, and intended or not, whoever hit her would have been charged with either murder or manslaughter.
So the only "answer" was to provide a visible cause of death, and the ligature was very visible. Not being forensic specialists, they never thought about things like petechial hemorrhages or ligature furrows. It's one of the theories that makes sense to me, in any event.
The things I can't make fit are exactly what caused her to scream. And whether they thought she was dead when they applied the ligature. I can't see it being applied if they knew she was still alive. If she had been in a coma, her breathing may have been so shallow as to be undetectable, and shock would lower her body temp, not to mention she would be unresponsive and unable to be roused.

Thanks for the welcome Dee!

Great points. Thought-provoking to say the least! I must concede -- the issue of what came first, the strangulation or the head wound is a huge area of interest to me regarding this case.

I agree wholeheartedly about the 'scream' and how it fits in. The Ramseys' neighbour asserts she heard a scream about midnight which seems to fit in with the placement of the pineapple in JonBenet's digestion tract (it was perhaps ingested 2 hours prior). Part of me thinks the scream may be associated with the EA device. Not sure though.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Just to throw this in here:

Cyril Wecht says that the head wound was done to "simulate a horrible attack". It was done when she was dead/dying. Further, according to him, an 8 1/2" skull fracture would not produce 7 CCs of blood (less than 1 1/2 teaspoons).

Further, he says that JonBenet died not from strangulation in the purest sense but from a vagal reflex caused by the pressure from a rope round her neck -- the hyoid bone does NOT need to be broke for this to happen. He also postulates that when she couldn't be resuscitated that is when the blow to her head was inflicted.The attempt was to make it look like an outsider who murdered her.He says he believes that the "sex game" was one that had been played before.It wasn't an intentional murder.

Just some food for thought.

 

[otg]

Welcome to WS, LFB.

I'm glad to see you don't mind just jumping right in there and getting to the heart of the subject. You seem to be very familiar with the facts available to the public, and you have obviously given this a lot of thought. I look forward to discussions with you.
.

 

[Steely]

Is it possible someone besides (JR, PR, BR or a combination of them) was responsible for the "prior chronic sexual abuse" but NOT what happened the night she was killed? I don't think with the information we have that we can rule it out. If you think it is impossible that it was someone else, what makes you so sure it was one or more of the R's?

 

[claudicici]

Hi LFB,I love the Dali avatar btw...
I agree with you Steely,there could very well have been someone else responsible for the prior abuse.Not necessarily the same person that committed the murder or somene that was even present that night.
I don't think the "device" was for sexual pleasures IMO the device had more of a symbolic meaning.So did the molestation that occured that night....and the ransom note.

 

[MurriFlower]

Just to throw this in here:

Cyril Wecht says that the head wound was done to "simulate a horrible attack". It was done when she was dead/dying. Further, according to him, an 8 1/2" skull fracture would not produce 7 CCs of blood (less than 1 1/2 teaspoons).

Further, he says that JonBenet died not from strangulation in the purest sense but from a vagal reflex caused by the pressure from a rope round her neck -- the hyoid bone does NOT need to be broke for this to happen. He also postulates that when she couldn't be resuscitated that is when the blow to her head was inflicted.The attempt was to make it look like an outsider who murdered her.He says he believes that the "sex game" was one that had been played before.It wasn't an intentional murder.

Just some food for thought.

What if it wasn't a "sex game" but just a "murder game"? How many ways/times can you "kill" someone before they die? How long can dying last? How many times can she be brought to the brink of death before we go too far??

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Welcome to WS, LFB.

I'm glad to see you don't mind just jumping right in there and getting to the heart of the subject. You seem to be very familiar with the facts available to the public, and you have obviously given this a lot of thought. I look forward to discussions with you.
.

Thanks for the welcome! Very nice of you!

I'm not an expert on the case by any means. However, like many on this forum, the JonBenet case has endured and still intrigues people who seek justice for the little girl!

I look forward to discussions with you also!

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

What if it wasn't a "sex game" but just a "murder game"? How many ways/times can you "kill" someone before they die? How long can dying last? How many times can she be brought to the brink of death before we go too far??

The point that Cyril Wecht was making was that the garrotte was serving a purpose -- that of an erotic asphyxiation device.I personally agree with this assessment. I understand that not everyone views the device as such though.

If Jonbenet had no genital trauma, then a stronger argument could be made for the garrotte being staging.However, her trauma in the genital area was evidence to him that she was molested -- both at the time of her death and at least 72 hours before on at least one other occasion, possibly more.

However, when viewed in relation to the totality of the information, Wecht believes JonBenet's death was a "sex-game gone wrong". Further, the fact that it was a vagal reflex that killed her, and not the head wound, according to him shows how the death wasn't deliberate. It was an accident.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Hi LFB,I love the Dali avatar btw...
I agree with you Steely,there could very well have been someone else responsible for the prior abuse.Not necessarily the same person that committed the murder or somene that was even present that night.
I don't think the "device" was for sexual pleasures IMO the device had more of a symbolic meaning.So did the molestation that occured that night....and the ransom note.

Hello.

Thanks for the avatar compliment. I'm a huge fan of Salvador Dali. I thought the 'time' aspect to the avatar was quite pertinent to this whole tragic case where time has elapsed but still no conclusion to the case.

 

[UKGuy]

The point that Cyril Wecht was making was that the garrotte was serving a purpose -- that of an erotic asphyxiation device.I personally agree with this assessment. I understand that not everyone views the device as such though.

If Jonbenet had no genital trauma, then a stronger argument could be made for the garrotte being staging.However, her trauma in the genital area was evidence to him that she was molested -- both at the time of her death and at least 72 hours before on at least one other occasion, possibly more.

However, when viewed in relation to the totality of the information, Wecht believes JonBenet's death was a "sex-game gone wrong". Further, the fact that it was a vagal reflex that killed her, and not the head wound, according to him shows how the death wasn't deliberate. It was an accident.

Let_Forever_Be,
You may be partial to Cyril Wecht's erotic asphyxiation theory, but the autopsy concludes that a combination of head trauma and asphyxia by strangulation was the cause of death e.g. hypoxia.

JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report, excerpt

CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma.

Further, the fact that it was a vagal reflex that killed her, and not the head wound, according to him shows how the death wasn't deliberate. It was an accident.

It is not a fact. Nowhere has it been established that death was caused by a vagal reflex.

Erotic Asphyxiation was an interesting theory for a while. BlueCrab promoted quite a consistent version on websleuths, but it has been put to bed since it does not explain all the forensic evidence, never mind those aspects it is in conflict with.





.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Let_Forever_Be,
You may be partial to Cyril Wecht's erotic asphyxiation theory, but the autopsy concludes that a combination of head trauma and asphyxia by strangulation was the cause of death e.g. hypoxia.

JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report, excerpt



It is not a fact. Nowhere has it been established that death was caused by a vagal reflex.

Erotic Asphyxiation was an interesting theory for a while. BlueCrab promoted quite a consistent version on websleuths, but it has been put to bed since it does not explain all the forensic evidence, never mind those aspects it is in conflict with.





.

With all due respect, I'm pretty confident to support the vagal reflex death scenario -- the garrote around JonBenet's neck, no broken hyoid bone,clothing underneath garrotte all suggest a sex game gone wrong.And to say it has been put to bed is simply incorrect -- JonBenet is dead. She suffered some sort of trauma to her neck area. The strangulation, whilst used as a general term is, as specifically pointed out by Mr Wecht, actually a vagal reflex.I personally agree with this. Unless you know more than Cyril Wecht I'm happy to accept his more than reasonable explanation.

And the coroner at the time was also conflicted as to the what killed JonBenet.Such is the nature of this case.Indeed, it is speculated what came first -- the garrotte or the head wound.

I believe, in keeping with the evidence which is known to us, that JonBenet was hit over the head when she was already dead or near death.I also think this fits in with the crime -- since I cannot prove there was an intruder but can place the family members at the crime, it seems more fitting that an accidental death occured. Additionally, how would such a severe wound be inflicted onto JonBenet's head -- I don't buy the Patsy hit her in a rage moment. To make an 8 1/2" fracture in the skull takes quite some force. We have no proof to say Patsy would respond so angrily if JonBenet wet the bed.To support this theory I would need to speculate too much.

My reasoning is that a head wound to the skull will not necessarily kill someone -- the regulatory chambers to the brain are at the base of the neck -- not the top of the cranium.Thus, until sufficient swelling of the brain occurs, then a person can and will remain alive.

Further, the lack of blood indicates JonBenet was already dead/near death. Her heart had stopped pumping due to the vagal reflex and cutting off of oxygen to the heart. Thus, less than 1 1/2 teaspoons of blood were found in the brain.I feel all the facts, when viewed in totality, support the 'sex game gone wrong' scenario.

Thus, the 'strangulation' came first. Once JonBenet could not be resuscitated, she was hit over the head so that it looked like an evil, aggressive intruder attacked her.

I absolutely accept Mr Wecht's analysis -- to me, it is the only one which makes sense.To say this theory is 'buried' is simply not true.

But until this case is absolutely concluded, we are all just opining!

 

[Toltec]

If this is an erotic asphyxiation type molestation gone bad...then why would this molestor who I believe has molested JonBenet days before, not used a cord then?

Whomever molested JonBenet Christmas nite I believe is the same person who did it 48-72 hours prior.

 

[UKGuy]

With all due respect, I'm pretty confident to support the vagal reflex death scenario -- the garrote around JonBenet's neck, no broken hyoid bone,clothing underneath garrotte all suggest a sex game gone wrong.And to say it has been put to bed is simply incorrect -- JonBenet is dead. She suffered some sort of trauma to her neck area. The strangulation, whilst used as a general term is, as specifically pointed out by Mr Wecht, actually a vagal reflex.I personally agree with this. Unless you know more than Cyril Wecht I'm happy to accept his more than reasonable explanation.

And the coroner at the time was also conflicted as to the what killed JonBenet.Such is the nature of this case.Indeed, it is speculated what came first -- the garrotte or the head wound.

I believe, in keeping with the evidence which is known to us, that JonBenet was hit over the head when she was already dead or near death.I also think this fits in with the crime -- since I cannot prove there was an intruder but can place the family members at the crime, it seems more fitting that an accidental death occured. Additionally, how would such a severe wound be inflicted onto JonBenet's head -- I don't buy the Patsy hit her in a rage moment. To make an 8 1/2" fracture in the skull takes quite some force. We have no proof to say Patsy would respond so angrily if JonBenet wet the bed.To support this theory I would need to speculate too much.

My reasoning is that a head wound to the skull will not necessarily kill someone -- the regulatory chambers to the brain are at the base of the neck -- not the top of the cranium.Thus, until sufficient swelling of the brain occurs, then a person can and will remain alive.

Further, the lack of blood indicates JonBenet was already dead/near death. Her heart had stopped pumping due to the vagal reflex and cutting off of oxygen to the heart. Thus, less than 1 1/2 teaspoons of blood were found in the brain.I feel all the facts, when viewed in totality, support the 'sex game gone wrong' scenario.

Thus, the 'strangulation' came first. Once JonBenet could not be resuscitated, she was hit over the head so that it looked like an evil, aggressive intruder attacked her.

I absolutely accept Mr Wecht's analysis -- to me, it is the only one which makes sense.To say this theory is 'buried' is simply not true.

But until this case is absolutely concluded, we are all just opining!

Let_Forever_Be,
You are welcome to Mr Wecht's analysis, please do not promote it as fact.

She suffered some sort of trauma to her neck area.

Can you offer a citation here, possibly the autopsy?

The strangulation, whilst used as a general term is, as specifically pointed out by Mr Wecht, actually a vagal reflex.

This is simply conjecture on Cyril Wecht's part, there is no supporting evidence. The autopsy cites hypoxia as the cause of death.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

Is it possible someone besides (JR, PR, BR or a combination of them) was responsible for the "prior chronic sexual abuse" but NOT what happened the night she was killed? I don't think with the information we have that we can rule it out. If you think it is impossible that it was someone else, what makes you so sure it was one or more of the R's?

Well, I suppose that could be the case, but someone molested her THAT day or night. And it's likely, though not an absolute, that the same person committed any earlier sexual assault. If it wasn't an immediate family member, I'd be looking at someone one who was at the White's that day and was also at the R party on the 23rd. Or at the R house earlier that day or Christmas eve (BR had friends over and Joe Barnhill claimed to have seen JAR walk into the house between the 23rd and Christmas Day.
If you suggest that her molestation was a separate event from her death, then it has to be only the PRIOR molestation. Because whatever was put into her vagina the night she died (and this is FACT- there was blood still in her vagina as well as blood that was found to have been wiped from her thighs and pubic area) was definitely related to her death, staging, or both.
I would love to see all the male guests who were CHILDREN in 1996 tested against that unknown male DNA. All the boys at the White's, at the R party on the 23rd, and who were at the R home on Christmas Eve and Day. But that will never happen, I guess. They can't be compelled to give DNA samples. And back then, they were minors and couldn't be compelled either.

 

[otg]

I would love to see all the male guests who were CHILDREN in 1996 tested against that unknown male DNA. All the boys at the White's, at the R party on the 23rd, and who were at the R home on Christmas Eve and Day. But that will never happen, I guess. They can't be compelled to give DNA samples. And back then, they were minors and couldn't be compelled either.

(otg snip)

I agree, DD, that they should have been (or even, still should be) tested. My understanding is that there were two minors who were tested: Ariana Pugh and Doug Stine (again, that Stine connection).
.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

If this is an erotic asphyxiation type molestation gone bad...then why would this molestor who I believe has molested JonBenet days before, not used a cord then?

Whomever molested JonBenet Christmas nite I believe is the same person who did it 48-72 hours prior.

Interesting point.

I agree that the person who molested her near her death (causing acute genital trauma) was also the same person who did it prior (causing the chronic trauma).

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Let_Forever_Be,
You are welcome to Mr Wecht's analysis, please do not promote it as fact.>And you're welcome to your beliefs. Please don't say the "sex-game gone wrong" is a buried theory just because you don't accept it.Evidently, it's not a buried theory when a world renowned forensic pathologist believes it is what happened.


Can you offer a citation here, possibly the autopsy?> that was a general reference to the fact that an event took place at her neck. I believe it was a vagal reflex which killed her.The only citations I can provide come from Mr Wecht himself. In a prior post I paraphrased quite accurately his opinion regarding the issue.


This is simply conjecture on Cyril Wecht's part, there is no supporting evidence. The autopsy cites hypoxia as the cause of death.> conjecture rooted in some degree of fact. Wecht is a forensic pathologist. He's not an idiot. He knows more than you or I do regarding the case.The fact that the coroner at the time could not say what came first, the neck trauma or the head wound is testament to how perplex this case has become -- even to so called professionals.

.

I've put my answers in red.

 

[wonderllama]

Not necessarily.
Perhaps PR discovered that something had happened and blamed JBR for it (not an unusual reaction). So in fact the abuser and killer could be two entirely different people.
Staging at time of death made to point towards abuse which had apparently been happening.

No?

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Not necessarily.
Perhaps PR discovered that something had happened and blamed JBR for it (not an unusual reaction). So in fact the abuser and killer could be two entirely different people.
Staging at time of death made to point towards abuse which had apparently been happening.

No?

But that rests on a belief that the head wound came first.Looking at the medical facts, I cannot fathom how the head-wound preceded the neck injury (garrotte).

The reason why I don't personally think the garrotte & ropes etc were staging is because I believe they were central to the death:

sex game gets played (molestation of JonBenet partly evidence of that)> something goes wrong> JonBenet stops breathing and can't be resuscitated > head wound is inflicted when she is already dead or near death to simulate gruesome intruder attack.

This would also explain why there was so little blood in her brain -- the fact that the heart had stopped pumping before the head bludgeon was done.

Also, a head-wound to the cranium need not kill someone immediately as all the regulatory brain centres are at the base of the neck thus a hit to the top of the head or thereabouts doesn't kill instantly. It's only after the brain swells that someone would die.

 

[joeskidbeck]

But that rests on a belief that the head wound came first.Looking at the medical facts, I cannot fathom how the head-wound preceded the neck injury (garrotte).

The reason why I don't personally think the garrotte & ropes etc were staging is because I believe they were central to the death:

sex game gets played (molestation of JonBenet partly evidence of that)> something goes wrong> JonBenet stops breathing and can't be resuscitated > head wound is inflicted when she is already dead or near death to simulate gruesome intruder attack.

This would also explain why there was so little blood in her brain -- the fact that the heart had stopped pumping before the head bludgeon was done.

Also, a head-wound to the cranium need not kill someone immediately as all the regulatory brain centres are at the base of the neck thus a hit to the top of the head or thereabouts doesn't kill instantly. It's only after the brain swells that someone would die.

I could very well go along with this if the head wound was readily visible. It obvioulsy wasnt made to look like the cause of death because it wasn't apparent. In my opinion, if the head wound was staging, it would have been a lot worse than it was. At the very least, her hair would have been arranged so that it would be visible. With the way she was found, her hair covered the head wound entirley and that makes no sense if the killer wanted the first on the scene to think "head wound" and not strangulation.