The cries for help

[Donjeta]

You may be correct about the experts, though I'm fairly certain the experts I heard talking about it said they were sure that it was Mr. Martin. This was right before I stopped paying attention to the media, so it's been a while. Unfortunately I can't even say which outlet it was that I was listening to but at the time the question in my mind was "how did you compare Mr. Martin's voice to the screams?"

IIRC the expert who used the biometric voice analysis system was pretty explicit that he could only say that his tests said it was not consistent with Mr. Zimmerman's voice and he hadn't had a sample of Mr. Martin's voice to compare so he couldn't say anything about that.

The other expert who seemed to rely more on his own expert opinion instead of technical tests said that in his opinion it was Mr. Martin because it was a younger voice.

Edit: Yep.
articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

 

[Karmady]

The expert never said it was TM. They just said they were certain it was not GZ. Also SA did not ask for the test. My guess is they will rely on FBI findings which they have not received yet. Gilbreath can only say he has heard of the OS testing not that he interviewed them because he did not. He did, however, interview TM's mother. jmo

Iirc, what Owens said was that he got a 48% correlation to George's voice and would require 60% or more to be sure. In the article I read, the head of the Forensic society (still can't remember the full name of the org.), the same one who concluded that the other word was "punks", had the same conclusion attributed to him but was not quoted like Owens was.

Idk, I've listened to that tape several times and haven't heard the type of screaming y'all seem to have heard. I really can't find the right words to characterize it myself though. In any case, I think there's a large question about whether and what expert evidence on the voice will come in and, in the meantime, we have an eyewitness saying it was George.

Link to the 60% number from Owen

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/02/sp.01.html

O'BRIEN: Yes -- what would that number be though? For you to be comfortable to go into a courtroom, what would that number have to be, in the 70s, the 80s? At what point do you get the green dot that says yes, we sort of have a match?

OWEN: Well, you'd have to get over 60 percent and the green dot. The green dot just delineates the software and the filters that are used, the three set of filters that are used in the software.

 

[Elley Mae]

This is the two "experts" interviewed by Lawence O'Donnell
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blmwbMc_EDc"]Ed Primeau on MSNBC - Audio Forensic Expert - Trayvon Martin Murder - YouTube[/ame]

No comment

 

[AJ Noiter]

The reporter may have concluded it was Martin. How could someone testing say it was 100% Martin when they did not have a sample of his normal voice to test? I only read that the experts were only sure it was not GZ. jmo

I don't recall them stating it with any percentage of certainty, but again this was some time ago. Without a source/video to back up my claim I'd rather just agree that whoever it was, was incorrect in their thesis if they did indeed say it was Mr. Martin. :truce:

 

[lauriej]

--the screams are heard replayed numerous times here...


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS0h9D9TIv0"]Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr - YouTube[/ame]

Questions For Robert Zimmerman Jr

 

[KateNY]

Is there only one voice on those tapes?

Could be a GZ hollar for help in the beginning (to subdue TM)
then TM screaming in fear of his life ( after he sees a gun)

Hope the FBI or someone is working on those tapes, so it is eventually cleared up.

IMVHO .... for now, I go with TM's Momma

 

[jjenny]

Interesting article on this topic at link:

"Finally, published studies of voice identification under experimental conditions show very high rates of error. Indeed, a report by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic voice identification concluded that the scientific basis for making reliable voice identifications is weak. The FBI, as a result of the report, apparently does not use forensic voice analysis for courtroom evidence, although as with polygraph evidence, it continues to use it for investigative purposes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/george-zimmerman-screaming_b_1468761.htm

If this article is correct, then at trial we will see some non-expert witnesses testify that it is GZ screaming and others testify that it is TM screaming. Result: draw on this particular issue. JMO MOO etc.

The voice test analysis might end up not being admitted in court at all, since there are few words heard on 911 tape, and guidelines ask for comparing a number of words. My guess it might end up not admissible all together. Of course the "jury pool" already heard those two experts to get in front of the cameras and declare that the screams were not coming from Zimmerman.

 

[wishuwerehere]

It doesn’t make any sense that Zimmerman would be the one screaming for help. These cries for help have a desperate and begging quality to them. Like someone on the verge of losing their life. Who lost their life that night? Who was followed, pursued and confronted? Who was walking down the street minding his on business, talking to his girl on his cell? Trayvon: RIP.

Who was armed that night? Who got out of his vehicle and pursued an innocent teenager? Who has a history of holding others to an imaginary authoritarian set of rules in his on head, but doesn’t hold himself to that same set of rules?

Zimmerman: GUILTY of SECOND DEGREE MURDER.

jmo

 

[jjenny]

Is there only one voice on those tapes?

Could be a GZ hollar for help in the beginning (to subdue TM)
then TM screaming in fear of his life ( after he sees a gun)

Hope the FBI or someone is working on those tapes, so it is eventually cleared up.

IMVHO .... for now, I go with TM's Momma

FBI doesn't have a magic tool to "clear it up."

 

[AJ Noiter]

It doesn’t make any sense that Zimmerman would be the one screaming for help. These cries for help have a desperate and begging quality to them. Like someone on the verge of losing their life. Who lost their life that night? Who was followed, pursued and confronted? Who was walking down the street minding his on business, talking to his girl on his cell? Trayvon: RIP.

Who was armed that night? Who got out of his vehicle and pursued an innocent teenager? Who has a history of holding others to an imaginary authoritarian set of rules in his on head, but doesn’t hold himself to that same set of rules?

Zimmerman: GUILTY of SECOND DEGREE MURDER.

jmo

Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

 

[AJ Noiter]

Is there only one voice on those tapes?

Could be a GZ hollar for help in the beginning (to subdue TM)
then TM screaming in fear of his life ( after he sees a gun)

Hope the FBI or someone is working on those tapes, so it is eventually cleared up.

IMVHO .... for now, I go with TM's Momma

To add to what jjenny said in her (assumption, sorry if I'm wrong) reply to you, someone quoted an article where the FBI stated they only use voice analysis for investigation, not trials. So then, even if they did have a magic tool it would be of little help for a conviction.

 

[TorisMom003]

By process of elimination we can conclude that since it is not Zimmerman calling for help that it must be Trayvon that was screaming and begging for his life. Unless of course there was more than the two of them out there that night. Now, if it turns out that there was more than just the two of them then Zimmerman is definately sunk since he has never said that it was more than himself and Trayvon that night.

MOO

 

[wishuwerehere]

Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

I'll play. Your assumption falls short because Zimmerman always had assistance: Smith & Wesson. That is why I believe he exited his vehicle in the first place.

jmo

 

[LambChop]

Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

I think once his gun was exposed GZ's gun was exposed he pretty much feared TM could have gotten ahold of it and used it against him. That may not have been true and it's possible TM was trying to keep from being shot. Either way had GZ not followed TM there would have been no chase, no fight, no shot fires and no dead body on the ground. We should be accountable for lives of others when we take risks. GZ had a choice, TM may not. jmo

 

[TorisMom003]

I'll play. Your assumption falls short because Zimmerman always had assistance: Smith & Wesson. That is why I believe he exited his vehicle in the first place.

jmo

Wish, I'm going to add the following to your post, if you don't mind...........

Zimmerman also knew that police were on the way as he had already been told by the dispatcher they were. "John" also did not just leave Zimmerman to fend for himself, "John" said he was calling 911. Now, as many times as Zimmerman has called 911 and the non-emergancy number, I'm sure he knew the approximate time of their arrival.

MOO

 

[LambChop]

To add to what jjenny said in her (assumption, sorry if I'm wrong) reply to you, someone quoted an article where the FBI stated they only use voice analysis for investigation, not trials. So then, even if they did have a magic tool it would be of little help for a conviction.

If the FBI tests show it is TM's voice they would more than like write a report for SA. SA could then conduct their own tests based on what the FBI reported to them. jmo

 

[Concerned Papa]

Here's what I know:
"John" stated on camera that Mr. Zimmerman ("the guy in red") was "yelling" for help. He said he ran upstairs to call 911, before he could get upstairs and look out the window Mr. Martin was dead. He does not state that he heard more yells while running upstairs.

All hearsay, but he probably will be testifying as a witness.

Good topic by the way, thanks!

I'm not sure what to make of "John". Let me show you why.

This is the floor plan for "John's" unit at 1221 Twin Trees. Notice the very small bathroom window I've circled:

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

I'm fully aware of all that "John's" comments say. I've watched the video numerous times and read it several more. I'm aware that "John" says the fight/shooting was right outside his porch.

Now, with that said, I ran across a video last night with Francis Taaffe doing a walk thru with NBC, oddly enough on the same date as the Legislator's opinion piece on SYG, March 21.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...es-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter?lite

I snipped out a part of what Taaffe said because that was the first I knew of his saying anything about body location. Watch this short 16 second vid I posted a short while ago at YouTube:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ktYW3iPq90"]Francis Taaffe Shows Where Trayvon Died - YouTube[/ame]

Considering not only where Taaffe is standing and looking, notice the point RZ Sr. refers to as "where the sidewalks meet" is directly behind him.

Considering the exceptionally small size and "tight squeeze" placement of this bathroom window, look at the image in the attachment below. How likely is it that "John" would have the field of vision to even see where Taaffe and RZ Sr. say the deal went down?

I don't mind telling you, I can't see it, and that puts a quandary surrounding what Taaffe, Zimmerman Sr., AND "John" have to say. Add to that mix what George Zimmerman's OWN ATTORNEY and a State Investigator said at the Bond Hearing about the location of the body being, what would be, 170 feet up the sidewalk from where the aforementioned three said it was at:

From the Bond Hearing recording at the [1:19:55] mark:

O’MARA: How do you know he was trying to return to his home?

GILBREATH: Because the location he was found in….is probably….and I don’t have the exact measurements….it’s in the path to the back door of the house where he was staying.

O’MARA: I think the evidence suggested it was 70 yards away, right?

GILBREATH: He came from there; I’m assuming he was going back there.

O’MARA: OK.

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

I don't understand how something as straightforward as the body's location could be this convoluted, but I gotta tell you, my money's riding on the attorney and the Investigator to be shooting us straight as opposed to any of those three.

 

[who]

...since there are few words heard on 911 tape, and guidelines ask for comparing a number of words. ...

It's a good thing the investigators have a voice recording of Zimmerman replicating those cries of Help me! , isn't it?

 

[suzihawk]

Lets assume for a moment that what Mr. Zimmerman said about being attacked is true. Does it make sense that he would be calling out for help to a 3rd party after being attacked by someone he doesn't know? Followed shortly by a shot because the 3rd party goes inside seemingly leaving him by himself with no assistance ("no one would help me" I believe were the words he used) ?

But he thought he knew who Trayvon was... he was one of those a$$holes that always gets away. Moreso than the other way around, at any rate, where Trayvon had no clue who this man was that was pursuing him - or why.

IMO

 

[IzzyBlanche]

It's a good thing the investigators have a voice recording of Zimmerman replicating those cries of Help me! , isn't it?

They do? Or is my sarcasm detector broken? :waitasec:

Disclaimer: I've been ill and my head's full of cotton.