The cries for help

[Karmady]

The charges were not dropped, they were reduced to a misdemeanor with pretrial diversion to an anger management course.




http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx

BBM

You didn't bold the nolle prosequi part, but that's the critical part. The charges were dropped upon completion of the diversion. That's the whole point of a diversion. The record still shows up, but there is no conviction.

 

[Phoenixfla]

Sorry I have to ask this again, but has anyone here actually heard TMs voice? Any examples we can link to? I am really interested in hearing the tone and pitch of his voice.

 

[LynnM]

You didn't bold the nolle prosequi part, but that's the critical part. The charges were dropped upon completion of the diversion. That's the whole point of a diversion. The record still shows up, but there is no conviction.

Yes but the issue was whether the state 'had enough doubt to drop it.' They allowed GZ to eter the diversion program. They didn't doubt he was guilty.

 

[Karmady]

The charges were not dropped, they were reduced to a misdemeanor with pretrial diversion to an anger management course.




http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/default.aspx

BBM

Yes but the issue was whether the state 'had enough doubt to drop it.' They allowed GZ to eter the diversion program. They didn't doubt he was guilty.

Respectfully, neither you nor I have any idea whether they doubted he was guilty of the crime charged. And George's defense, iirc, was one of the elements of the crime -- that LE did not identify himself as such and was undercover. The prosecutor may have been certain that the officer did not, in fact, identify himself. Particularly since the prosecutors' office would have been able to have direct access to the officer in question and would have known what he would say under oath. Or not, and just felt like it wasn't worth the time and expense to prosecute. However, as a practical matter, prosecutors determine whether or not to prosecute based on whether they think they can get a conviction. They're kind of like sports teams in that regard, unfortunately. imo They are big on statistics and the W-L record. And they do tend to prosecute crimes against LE. jmo

 

[vlpate]

Respectfully, neither you nor I have any idea whether they doubted he was guilty of the crime charged. And George's defense, iirc, was one of the elements of the crime -- that LE did not identify himself as such and was undercover. The prosecutor may have been certain that the officer did not, in fact, identify himself. Particularly since the prosecutors' office would have been able to have direct access to the officer in question and would have known what he would say under oath. Or not, and just felt like it wasn't worth the time and expense to prosecute. However, as a practical matter, prosecutors determine whether or not to prosecute based on whether they think they can get a conviction. They're kind of like sports teams in that regard, unfortunately. imo They are big on statistics and the W-L record. And they do tend to prosecute crimes against LE. jmo

wow, these threads get off-topic quick, I constantly have to look at the sign on the door to remember where I am. Regardless of what his record was, and the Judge felt it was insignificant, it had absolutely nothing to do with the cried for help.

The prosecution took SF's word for the cries being her son's because the tests done by the so-called experts and the FBI gave no insight and the tests were not part of the probable cause document. At the end of the day, I can't figure out how it matters anyway, if TM was atop GZ, he was denying him his right to retreat and regardless of who was screaming for help, that's what will matter, IMO.

 

[AJ Noiter]

I'm not certain if this has been mentioned, but according to Mr. Owen's website his voice comparisons are bunk.

Website: http://www.owlinvestigations.com/article1.html

Specifically:

III - THE METHOD OF VOICE IDENTIFICATION


The method by which a voice is identified is a multifaceted process requiring the use of both aural and visual senses. In the typical voice identification case the examiner is given several recordings; one or more recordings of the voice to be identified and one or more recorded voice samples of one or more suspects. It is from these recordings the examiner must make the determination about the identity of the unknown voice.


The first step is to evaluate the recording of the unknown voice, checking to make sure the recording has a sufficient amount of speech with which to work and that the quality of the recording is of sufficient clarity in the frequency range required for analysis. The volume of the recorded voice signal must be significantly higher than that of the environmental noise. The greater the number of obscuring events, such as noise, music, and other speakers, the longer the sample of speech must be. Some examiners report that they reject as many as sixty percent of the cases submitted to them with one of the main reasons for rejection being the poor quality of the recording of the unknown voice.
<snip - read all of the information, please>

According to his very first step he could not make such an analysis of these screams. There wasn't any speech, the quality was via telephone (which alone poses many hazards to higher frequencies*), under the speaking of the person on the phone/dispatcher, from an unknown distance. Given that he states specifically that the more "obscuring events" the longer the speech has to be, and the fact that there is no speech.. how can he make any determination at all? There's more, that's just the first step.


Edit below:
I just wanted to make it clear that I'm specifically talking about Mr. Owens' analysis of the screams. I know the special prosecutor probably recorded Mr. Zimmerman in the walkthrough when they had him yell a number of times. In Mr. Owens' analysis he states that he compared the screams to the voice (Mr. Zimmerman's) heard in the 911 call.

* - I tried to find info on this to link, but it seems as if the digital age has fixed this in modern telephone systems and in turn made it a bit more difficult to find info on it. I would place a wager that because the 911 telephone system has some redundancy systems in place it hasn't been updated to digital lines. If you remember "back in the good ol' days" when you were on the phone, the voice of the person you were speaking to would sound different than it does when you're speaking in person. This is because the telephone back then filtered out frequencies above a certain point.

 

[csziggy]

I'm not certain if this has been mentioned, but according to Mr. Owen's website his voice comparisons are bunk.

Website: http://www.owlinvestigations.com/article1.html

Specifically:


According to his very first step he could not make such an analysis of these screams. There wasn't any speech, the quality was via telephone (which alone poses many hazards to higher frequencies), under the speaking of the person on the phone/dispatcher, from an unknown distance. Given that he states specifically that the more "obscuring events" the longer the speech has to be, and the fact that there is no speech.. how can he make any determination at all? There's more, that's just the first step.

The software Mr. Owens used for his analysis, Easy Voice Biometrics, is recently introduced for sale in the US, though it has already been accepted for use in court.

 

[AJ Noiter]

The software Mr. Owens used for his analysis, Easy Voice Biometrics, is recently introduced for sale in the US, though it has already been accepted for use in court.

Which is just a highly "dumbed down" version of CoolEdit, in my opinion based upon the tech info for the software found here: http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/docs/evbadditionalinfo.pdf

Looking over that, there are 3 methods used by the software:

Spectral-Formant Method provides high reliability of identification results and has the following
advantages:
&#8226; Requires just as little as 16 seconds length of speech sample.
...

Pitch Statistics Analysis Method.
...
&#8226; Requires the minimum of 10 seconds length of speech sample (which is even less than the Spectral-Formant method).
...

Gaussian Mixture Models based Method (GMM).
...
&#8226; High speed of the speaker search.
&#8226; Ideal for clear recordings with low noise level.
&#8226; Ideal for long recordings.
...

I think it's safe to say that not only does Mr. Owens' own words contradict his analysis, but the documentation from the software he uses says he shouldn't have even tried.

Edit:
This is pure speculation from me, but I'm starting to wonder if Mr. Owen had some kind of deal with the developers of the software. It's strangely odd that he made these claims, which we can clearly see that he shouldn't have even by his own words, right after a new version of the software came out. Free nation-wide commercial on multiple networks and outlets?

 

[Reader]

I have stated a number of times that I stopped watching the media. No one has asked when that was. Even then, if someone points me to an article I -may- check it out. That in itself does not mean I'm blindly listening to what the media has stated. However, I must take a different stance on the "Prelude to a Shooting" article because it's evident that someone did investigative journalism, and based on my opinion of that I do tend to give it a bit more credibility than the typical "zomg look what <insert some other source> is saying about <insert .. whatever>" stories.

To put it shortly, if you have to quote another media outlet for your story, you are not doing your job as a source of news.

Most of us here have already read that article also and noticed the writer did not quote ANY sources...I don't call that good journalism and it was questioned at the time by several posters here. The real purpose seemed to be to show us GZ's little boy pictures which has nothing to do with this case or his credibility about his actions in killing Trayvon.

 

[Reader]

The software Mr. Owens used for his analysis, Easy Voice Biometrics, is recently introduced for sale in the US, though it has already been accepted for use in court.

Thanks!

I guess we'll have to wait for the trial to see if the AG/prosecutor offers any professional analysis of the voices/screams. It would be good to have it verified that it was Trayvon screaming but I tend to agree with some other posters who have said that the judge or jury will not even need that. They can tell by listening to the tape themselves that it is Trayvon and his mother's testimony will be very credible. I remember she got so upset listening to it that she screamed and ran from the room crying. I think they will believe her.

 

[Karmady]

Just in case anyone's interested. Here is Mr. Owen's CV. Also, he has testified or been identified as an expert in at least 12 reported decisions over the past decade or so on voice issues. Which means, imo, he's probably testified or issued a report in about 3 or 4 times that many cases. I can't link to the cases b/c they're from a subscription site, so take it fwiw.

He also is "approved" by a lot of media, which is listed in his CV.

www.owlinvestigations.com/pdf/TOM_OWEN_Vitae_01_2011.pdf

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I also think George went down the street and the cut through and TM saw him pop back up in front of him.

I think it's very likely George had the gun in his waistband (may of been under the jacket and he moved it to displayed it) and he let it be known he had a gun. That was when TM saw the gun and started fighting for his life. Trayvon was standing his ground trying to save his life.

George's brother talks about how George said it was sad that no one came to help him , that despite the screams no one had come to help. He also said the screams could of been avoided that night. Several neighbor's had heard and seen something going on and did call for help. And yes the screams could of been avoided by George following the dispatchers directive and not follow a person that look to be on drugs and up to no good and was circling his truck.

I don't understand George going down the sidewalk to the next street to get an address. He lived in that sub-division for three years and "patrolled" it on his "watch", I bet he knows just about all the house numbers on those streets. I think the going to get an address story gave George more time in his version so he could be the victim that got surprised from behind. I mean you would want to save face wouldn't you? He had to of been attacked from behind. A sucker punch. It's wasn't his fault. He was only doing his job.

What was George planning to do once he confronted Trayvon? Was he just going to "question" TM and let him go?

Was he going to hold at gun point him till the police got there and took over?

If I were sitting was in my truck and on the phone with LE, and someone was circling me, I'd drive off to a safe distance and wait for the police to arrive. He still had the advantage and would be in control, TM was no threat.

Wouldn't you? Are you just going to sit there talking on the phone if you're alarmed by this person and wait for LE?

 

[Phoenixfla]

Which is just a highly "dumbed down" version of CoolEdit, in my opinion based upon the tech info for the software found here: http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/docs/evbadditionalinfo.pdf

Looking over that, there are 3 methods used by the software:







I think it's safe to say that not only does Mr. Owens' own words contradict his analysis, but the documentation from the software he uses says he shouldn't have even tried.

Edit:
This is pure speculation from me, but I'm starting to wonder if Mr. Owen had some kind of deal with the developers of the software. It's strangely odd that he made these claims, which we can clearly see that he shouldn't have even by his own words, right after a new version of the software came out. Free nation-wide commercial on multiple networks and outlets?

Nice work locating that. Nothing about comparing a scream to normal speech either I imagine.

I'm thinking that Mr. Owens wishes he had not gotten involved in the first place. This can't be a good career move. IMO

 

[Rubys]

I have listened to the 911 call many times. It does certainly seem as though the screaming stops as soon as the shot is fired. While it is obvious why TM would stop screaming, why would GZ? If he were the screamer I don't think he would stop screaming as soon as he fired the shot. He wouldn't know immediately that TM was no longer a threat. It sounds as though the shot actually stops a scream so I think the person screaming was the person shot TM.

 

[AJ Noiter]

Nice work locating that. Nothing about comparing a scream to normal speech either I imagine.

I'm thinking that Mr. Owens wishes he had not gotten involved in the first place. This can't be a good career move. IMO

There was one that did speak of comparing tones of voice with emotions, I believe it was the second one listed. If it wasn't the second it was the first, so either way a number of seconds worth of screaming would need to be heard.

Edit: It was the 2nd, the pitch method.

 

[Reader]

I have listened to the 911 call many times. It does certainly seem as though the screaming stops as soon as the shot is fired. While it is obvious why TM would stop screaming, why would GZ? If he were the screamer I don't think he would stop screaming as soon as he fired the shot. He wouldn't know immediately that TM was no longer a threat. It sounds as though the shot actually stops a scream so I think the person screaming was the person shot TM.

I agree....and welcome to WS!

 

[Karmady]

And, holy toledo...Mr. Owen's rates :::yikes:::

http://www.owlinvestigations.com/rates.html

 

[csziggy]

Thanks!

I guess we'll have to wait for the trial to see if the AG/prosecutor offers any professional analysis of the voices/screams. It would be good to have it verified that it was Trayvon screaming but I tend to agree with some other posters who have said that the judge or jury will not even need that. They can tell by listening to the tape themselves that it is Trayvon and his mother's testimony will be very credible. I remember she got so upset listening to it that she screamed and ran from the room crying. I think they will believe her.

I doubt AC or her assistant prosecutor (Bernie?) will use the experts hired by the Orlando Sentinel. The prosecution will probably use the FBI tests if they show any useful information or simply rely on Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton to identify their son's voice.

Of course, the defense will trot out their experts and the Robert Zimmerman's, Sr. & Jr. to testify that it is GZ screaming. But then the prosecution can then ask the questions we've been asking about how GZ could be screaming that continuously with TM's hands on his nose and mouth while being close to unconsciousness from his head being beaten against the concrete.

I know who I believe it was but I'm looking forward to seeing the evidence the prosecution has.

IMO, JMO, etc.

 

[PaperDoll]

Here is what I've been wondering, and if IIRC, the police arrived on the scene less than a minute after the shooting??? correct me if I'm wrong, but I wonder if the police heard the screams. They couldn't have been that far off could they? :waitasec:

 

[beach]

Mod note:


The quickest way to get a TO is to attack another poster instead of addressing their post.


ZERO tolerance for personal attacks.


That goes for those cleverly worded veiled snarky attacks. Those that we see over and over and over....and over again. Zero tolerance.



Please, please, PLEASE -

As we ALL know, this case is emotionally charged on SO many levels.
Posting in this forum requires self-restraint and lots of TOLERANCE toward your fellow members.



Posting impulsively when emotions are running high is almost never a good thing.

Preview your posts. Preview them 10x if you need to before hitting "submit reply".


Thanks!


*this post falls completely at random*