The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 24th June - Trial Day 9, Week 3

[Stick]

Any bets that the defence will try to argue Prof Drummer's figures or expertise?

Defence: Yes, that's all well and good, Professor Drummer. But are you even a doctor?
Prof Drummer: Well, the manner in which you addressed me, should provide adequate resolution to that question.
Defence: I mean, Professor Drummer, are you even a pharmacist?
Prof Drummer: Obviously not. I'm a forensic toxicologist.
Defence: Can you spell that?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Francene Norton ‏@francenenorton 1m
Defence: If we assume Allison #badenclay was on 100mg zoloft per day the levels in her blood were elevated? Prof Drummer: yes. @abcnews


Francene Norton ‏@francenenorton 41s
Prof Drummer says one reason for elevated levels is post mortem redistribution. #badenclay @abcnews



Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 55s
Defence says .59mg sertraline was in Allison's blood. Says it's substantially higher than what would be expected. #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 48s
Prof Drummer disagrees. Says the blood was collected next to liver from a decomposing body, levels would have been elevated. #badenclay

 

[Amee]

Francene Norton ‏@francenenorton 9m

Prof Drummer says the levels led him to the conclusion the drugs had no contribution to Allison's death. #badenclay @abcnews

 

[Amee]

3:03pm: Professor Drummer, forensic pharmacologist and toxicologist, said the levels of the anti-depressant Zoloft in Mrs Baden-Clay's system were not consistent with an overdose.

"I would have expected much higher levels in the liver," he said.

"The levels I found did not lead me to think the drug had any contribution to her death."

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ay-9-week-3-20140624-3apn6.html#ixzz35WwsnREE

 

[PrimeSuspect]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 55s
Defence suggests Sertraline range was up to 20 times higher than normally expected. #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Defence says level was still higher than expected. Prof Drummer: Not in my view, no. #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 42s
Prof Drummer says you can't be too precise about what the concentrations represent. #badenclay http://bit.ly/badenclayday9



David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 45s
Prof Drummer says there is drug movement after death that could explain higher levels #badenclay

 

[Timmy]

Defence: Yes, that's all well and good, Professor Drummer. But are you even a doctor?
Dr Drummer: Well, the manner in which you addressed me, should provide adequate resolution to that question.
Defence: I mean, Professor Drummer, are you even a pharmacist?
Dr Drummer: Obviously not. I'm a forensic toxicologist.
Defence: Can you spell that?

For a minute there I thought you were actually quoting from the trial!

 

[DrWatson]

Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 48s
Prof Drummer disagrees. Says the blood was collected next to liver from a decomposing body, levels would have been elevated. #badenclay

And THAT, as they say, is THAT - there was NO overdose. That's what all that stuff was about that we forwarded to the DPP at the time of the second bail hearing. As I posted a few pages up - postmortem redistribution and the fact that the samples were taken from the liver - THEY are the vital points.

And no matter how hard the defence tries to spin it, I hope - I really hope - that the jury can understand what Drummer is saying. Because the entire depression/overdose defence has just gone out the window. I really hope the jury haven't been hoodwinked by the defence trying to put words into Prof Drummer's mouth....

 

[AAAA]

I think that GBC was a gambler.

He gambled by having an affair with Toni and not being found out
He gambled by having an affair on Toni with other women and not being found out
He gambled on killing Allison and not being found out.
He gambled by not making a police statement
He has gambled by taking it to trial

I think the money was going in gambling debts.

Once a gambler always a gambler. They always think they can win, no matter what - 'I'll just have one more turn, I'll just have one more try '

I predict he is going to be found not guilty on this all the weak evidence that has been presented so far. Honestly how many of you would say he was guilty with ONLY the evidence we have heard at the trial .....

It'll be the same old story - he will be found not guilty and then all the additional details will come out and I think the jurors will be shocked at what they weren't told at the trial.

I'm feeling very disappointed and VERY worried for the children and VERY worried for the mental and physical health of Allisons parents if he is found not guilty.

Totally agree with you! There is no chance of a second trial in Australia is there? Double jeapardy?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 35s
Defence says Prof Drummer can't exclude Sertraline causing death. He says it's unlikely #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Prof Drummer says his view is Sertraline is unlikely to be the cause of Allison's death. He can't exclude it though. #badenclay

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Prof Drummer says side effects of Sertraline would have been present early on and then would have dissipated. #badenclay



Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 55s
Prof Drummer has been excused. #badenclay http://bit.ly/badenclayday9


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Martin Giles called to give evidence #badenclay



Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 44s
Now on the stand is hydraulic engineer Martin Giles. He assessed the flood levels at Kholo Creek for police. #badenclay

 

[Freya1977]

Defence: Yes, that's all well and good, Professor Drummer. But are you even a doctor?
Dr Drummer: Well, the manner in which you addressed me, should provide adequate resolution to that question.
Defence: I mean, Professor Drummer, are you even a pharmacist?
Dr Drummer: Obviously not. I'm a forensic toxicologist.
Defence: Can you spell that?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! They're really desperate. SPELL it???

ETA: That's not actually from the trial, is it? You fooled me for a moment

 

[Amee]

3:16pm: Mr Baden-Clay's defence counsel Michael Byrne QC suggested the level of Zoloft in Mrs Baden-Clay's liver was substantially higher - in the order of 20 times higher - than what would be expected in a patient taking a prescribed dose.

Professor Drummer said blood collected from the liver in a decomposing body would likely contain elevated levels of the anti-depressant drug.

Professor Drummer has been excused.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ay-9-week-3-20140624-3apn6.html#ixzz35WyQPa6P

 

[BJsleuth]

Dr Watson, does depression necessarily mean someone is suicidal? Can a person be depressed but never contemplate suicide?

 

[DrWatson]

Grrr - don't you hate it when the lawyer asks "Can you exclude it 100%?" and of course the expert witness HAS to say "Not completely - but it is unlikely".

Sometimes I just wish an expert witness would have the courage of their convictions and say "Yes I CAN exclude it! On the basis of my 35-year experience as a specialist in this field, an area where you, the lawyer, have NO expertise at all - zero - there was NO overdose in this case. An overdose of sertraline did NOT cause the death. So shove that in your pipe and smoke it!"

 

[PrimeSuspect]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 57s
Mr Giles is an engineer with Cardno, completed a report September 2012 #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 54s
Mr Giles says the Kholo Creek bridge is 11.5m above mean sea level. #badenclay

 

[Amee]

3:18pm: Hydrologist Martin Giles has been called to the witness box.

He examined the water levels in Kholo Creek after Mrs Baden-Clay's body was found.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ay-9-week-3-20140624-3apn6.html#ixzz35Wz9npSE

 

[DrWatson]

Dr Watson, does depression necessarily mean someone is suicidal? Can a person be depressed but never contemplate suicide?

Absolutely! The vast majority of people with depression never, ever even contemplate suicide, let alone carry it out.

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I have had lots of patients over the years who suffered from depression, and controlled it with medications etc. And most of those people just got on with their lives. Up and down days, swings flattened out with help and meds, but never thought about topping themselves!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 28s
Mr Giles says there was a depression on the ground where her body had been. #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Mr Giles says on May 22, 2012, he went to the creek where Allison's body was found. #badenclay


Kate Kyriacou ‏@KateKyriacou 1m
Mr Giles says he obtained rain data for the area. #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Mr Giles used two gauges to see level of the Brisbane River and obtained rainfall data #badenclay


David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 57s
Mr Giles went to Kholo Creek in May 2012. There was a depression in the bank where Allison's body had been #badenclay

 

[BJsleuth]

Absolutely! The vast majority of people with depression never, ever even contemplate suicide, let alone carry it out.

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I have had lots of patients over the years who suffered from depression, and controlled it with medications etc. And most of those people just got on with their lives. Up and down days, swings flattened out with help and meds, but never thought about topping themselves!

Thanks Doc, that's what I thought.

 

[Timmy]

Grrr - don't you hate it when the lawyer asks "Can you exclude it 100%?" and of course the expert witness HAS to say "Not completely - but it is unlikely".

Sometimes I just wish an expert witness would have the courage of their convictions and say "Yes I CAN exclude it! On the basis of my 35-year experience as a specialist in this field, an area where you, the lawyer, have NO expertise at all - zero - there was NO overdose in this case. An overdose of sertraline did NOT cause the death. So shove that in your pipe and smoke it!"

I agree! .... Possibly minus the 'shove that in your pipe' bit!