The danger of a closed mind

[aussiesheila]

Some points:

- stungun experts Stratbucker and Tuttle completely disagreed with Lou Smit's stun gun theory, stating that they had never seen any stun gun marks which looked like the marks on JonBenet.

- a fixed double knot can't be used as a breath control device either - it doesn't slip.
Even if we go along (for discussion purposes) for a moment with it being a breath control device: the knot was tied on the back of JB's neck, therefore someone would have to be behind her to do the breath controlling.
In addition, your scenario is that JB was also hung up with her hands - how would the person doing the breath control have operated? He would have had to climb up a chair because JBs body was hanging down from the ceiling and then pull the cord at the back of her neck to do breath controlling? Isn't such a scenario a little absurd?

- since the ties around JB's wrists were so loosely bound, they would have come off if anyone tried to hang JB up on an 'overhead structure', like you said in another thread.

- the wrist ties seem more misconstructed than complicated to me - resembling something like a poorly tied shoelace.

- re the DNA: wasn't the DNA under JB's fingernails old and degraded?

Yes I know not everyone is agreed on whether a stungun was used or not, it's one of those issues that experts are divided on so you either believe it or you don't and it seems a waste of time to argue about it. But in my theory there was a stun gun.

But there wasn't a fixed double knot on the neck ligature, there was a noose-type knot, one that could slip along the cord allowing it function as a strangulation device. And yes I think that someone was standing behind her doing the breath controlling.

I think JonBenet was standing on a chair. An adult male standing on the floor behind her would have been at about the right height to manipulate the neck ligature.

I don't say she was 'hanging from the ceiling', I say she was standing on the chair, it's just that her arms were held outstretched above her head held by the wrist loops that were attached to some point overhead, either one of those overhead pipes or the overhead part of a door frame.

Held like this the wrist loops would have been under tension and unless JonBenet had some means of elevating her whole body she would not have been able to free her hands from those loops.

Looking at the photos of the upper and under side of her right wrist with the tie still on it, it doesn't look at all poorly tied to me.

The DNA I don't know, it may have been degraded, it may not have been, but it must have been intact enough for them to have stated as they did, that it was not Ramsey DNA.

 

[aussiesheila]

Catching up reading, while I was busy busy last couple days.

Ahh, Nancy Krebs story. She certainly disappeared from the radar 'quickly'.

About the numbers of people who might have been at the R's that night. I have driven the alleyway a total of 3 times in the last 6 years. The alley seems narrower than alleys of later years. A car or numbers of cars could safely drive up and down the alley without being seen or detected by the neighboring homes, moo. (my own opinion)

I need another drive by, but I do remember there is room for two cars side by side to be parked on the garage apron. I noted also that it is a rather steep descent down to the garage from the alleyway. You could inmop, drive by and not even notice a car being parked DOWN there.

To deliver 'people' from the alley, would be a quick process. Exit vehicle, go directly into the low level garage and right into the home, while the delivery car would proceed on by. The driver could go elsewhere to be picked up by another car and then return with others, and that 'final' car could merely park undetected on the R garage apron, and into the house.

All of the necessary things needed for such as what Nancy described are plausible, BUT unprovable. Small pretty little girl, wealthy adults, out of town visitors.

People who participate in such activities are a 'select' group. I do wonder HOW these sorts of things ever get coordinated and put together??? Is there a directory for perverts, other than bathroom walls?

Oops forgot, computers and high tech, hmmm. BUT, as JR so aptly put, words to this effect, "It was an inside job". Was this just an accidental way of surmising the crime and the cause, OR, just because he read murder mysteries. Correct me if I err on the mystery reader in the family, JR or PR, my memory is slipping.

IF the R business was high tech computer industry. Could they have been sharp enough to make such activity disappear from their puters, nuthin' on the hard drive, huh? Could the lists of folks been merely put on another method of computer memory storage, and not appear on a hard drive?? I am not a geek about info storage, in fact I donut know what a blackberry is either. I don't keep up.

I would like Ms. Krebs to be interviewed today. Wonder HOW her health is NOW and her memory.

About lint and dust bunnies, everyone has em in their home somewhere. I do doubt that the R housekeeper kept up with all of the lint all of the time.

When the R house was built way back in the dark ages, old home, folks hung their clothes on a clothesline. DO WE know if the dryer in the home had an effective vent for the dryer? Maybe it was sort of an old 'JoeMagee' kind of a vent, maybe it vented into a crawl space with a dirt floor. The house was four levels, basement, main, second and third floor. Where and how do you vent the dryer in an olde house like that? Police probably checked that, ya think ?, I donut think so, BUT WE donut know.

I do believe JR was right in his assessment that it was an inside job. Why did he say it, and is he ever sorry for having said it?

Something that has always bothered me is the large bruise on front left side of Jon Benets neck, the knot or pressure would seem to me to have happened there during the murder, while the perpetrator was facing her.

Does anyone know if JR was right or left handed?

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About the number of cars. I said six people. I think CW went for a drive in the country, as he stated in his police interview. During this drive in the country I think he picked up Santa which he didn't tell police. I think he parked his car in one of the alleyways near the Ramsey house, let Santa out to walk the rest of the way to the Ramsey kitchen door. I think he stayed there until he got the signal that it was OK for him to come to the house too. I think CG walked from the W residence. How far away was that? It seems it only took 5 minutes to drive from there so one hour's walk for another one. The boarder across the road would have walked as well. So that's four perpetrators, one car. I don't know who the other two perpetrators were, if there was another two, but I have read there was a wild party near the Ramsey house that night, someone might have dropped in at that party before moving on by foot to the Ramsey basement around midnight.

 

[sissi]

First I'd like to say how much I "appreciated" you MOO this morning, Camper, that's the best!!
You are right, not much in this case can be proven, another reason I "hate" to see words like "absurd or impossible", as well as personal comments reminiscent of "grow a brain".
Certainly everyone knows by now that I believe the Ramseys were not the brightest bulbs, and don't expect much from them in the way of solving this crime, "to boot" I find them hopeless in their PR efforts. They don't come across well , no warm fuzzy feelings emitting, their parenting history hit "rock bottom" IMO when she told of Jonbenet's birth. Who leaves the baby boy home alone, even for a minute!!!
"Grow a brain" , was a perfect comment to be directed toward them, leading "me" to think it could have been an inside job.
Someone said, "the Ramseys know who killed their child" , I would agree, they "know" him, they just don't know "which" him.
While a lot of the ransom note screamed crime buff, a lot screamed sociopathic control "freak", as well, IMO. They "advise, they "instruct", and they "monitor", if you don't listen someone is going to "die,die,die,die". That's an awful lot of self importance coupled with threats and anger. MOO (thanks Camper) is I don't see this in either Ramsey. No history of being a tyrant on his part, and she's too home grown syrupy..again MOO. Who among their "friends" needed to control and rage? Just a question!!

It is interesting as Camper notes the possible ease of pick-up and delivery if one is familiar with the house and the alley entrance and exit. The items missing as well as the animal hairs and multiple fibers that can't be matched to the Ramseys home, suggests the child was removed. I'm not certain if there are a select few that are "invited" to these gatherings, perhaps ,instead,it was a for profit filming. Child snuff film? Remember , that was the only thing that really made one consider Westerfield as the perp, a film of young children trying to escape their rapists. A California connection? Maybe. We don't know how much money and power these people have, we do not know their "business", we can't know how much of what Nancy said is true or false. The fact that she reluctantly , with fear of personal harm, came forward suggests there is some truth to what she said. If she had been lying, why did so many try to undermine her, sending notarized statements, claiming she was a liar. Why were her words found, under the law, to NOT be slanderous, or libel?

 

[sissi]

About the number of cars. I said six people. I think CW went for a drive in the country, as he stated in his police interview. During this drive in the country I think he picked up Santa which he didn't tell police. I think he parked his car in one of the alleyways near the Ramsey house, let Santa out to walk the rest of the way to the Ramsey kitchen door. I think he stayed there until he got the signal that it was OK for him to come to the house too. I think CG walked from the W residence. How far away was that? It seems it only took 5 minutes to drive from there so one hour's walk for another one. The boarder across the road would have walked as well. So that's four perpetrators, one car. I don't know who the other two perpetrators were, if there was another two, but I have read there was a wild party near the Ramsey house that night, someone might have dropped in at that party before moving on by foot to the Ramsey basement around midnight.

Why did the Boulder Police discount everyone who offered information as being "crazy"?? I can't imagine Dilson or Krebs coming forward on a whim. Neither, had anything to gain. It is interesting when ya think about the days preceding the crime, the few odd behaviors, that could possibly be interpreted as "closing the deal, or finalizing the arrangements". Fleet leaving on Christmas day to "walk with carolers", making a 911 from the Ramseys for what?...maybe to test the response time?, Myer showing up uninvited, possibly plays in, but how, was he indeed alarmed by the dog, was someone doing a "dry run" that the dog found disturbing,or was he gaining knowledge of the lay-out. Priscilla taking the day planner, for what, to pick up a few handwriting nuances ? Santa arranging an impromptu party bringing along his wife. Was the van parked behind the Barnhill's for use by Meyer? Who was in the house weeks before to steal the video camera, did they want the camera or were they interested in what was on it, films of their victim. A possible sales tactic? What happened at the window? No one entered or exited that window, was Chris dirty because he was the one who returned her in that suitcase, putting it in the window well,entering the house thru a door, retrieving the suitcase and placing it in the basement. The ransom note would be the key,leave it on the steps, when returning the chld "if" the note was still in place then they could safely assume the Ramseys were not yet aware of their child missing.

 

[Camper]

If I were a guessing person, I am guessing that Ms. Krebs is in 'a' room, in a locked facility being given soothing drugs each day.

Anyone remember how old she was when she came forth?

Also does anyone remember the name of the attorney that took her in, and gave her refuge at the time, because he BELIEVED HER?

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[sissi]

I thought her attorney was Lee Hill? Her age at the time was 34ish? I doubt she's in a locked room unless some dark character had the means to put her there, remember she had at least one arrested for molestation. She suffers from emotional problems, likely because she was a victim.

 

[rashomon]

Yes I know not everyone is agreed on whether a stungun was used or not, it's one of those issues that experts are divided on so you either believe it or you don't and it seems a waste of time to argue about it. But in my theory there was a stun gun.

I don't think it is a waste of time but a crucial issue which should be discussed. Lou Smit came up with this stun gun stuff, but stun gun experts like Tuttle and Stratbucker disagreed. You said that the experts are divided - could you direct me to an expert's testimony who agreed with Smit?

But there wasn't a fixed double knot on the neck ligature, there was a noose-type knot, one that could slip along the cord allowing it function as a strangulation device. And yes I think that someone was standing behind her doing the breath controlling.

As has been discussed here before, breath controlling is something done in (auto) erotic asphyxiation for the sexual pleasure (and with the willing consent!) of the person who is being asphyxiated. Not only would such a scenario rule out six-year-old JB as a willing participant, it also does not add up with the (staged imo) sexual assault scene where her vagina was injured with the paintbrush.

Re the knot on her neck:The problem with that knot is that although quite a few people on JB forums have tried to tie this knot, the knot each one got always differed from the knots the other posters got, lol.
The reason for this is that we (except Delmar England) are no rope experts. I'm going to ask him about that knot on FFJ.
For the knot on the neck is pivotal evidence: if it didn't slip, this would be the proof that the whole 'cord wrapped around around the paintbrush handle' contraption had no function at all and was done only for staging purposes. And staging would point to the parents.

 

[Camper]

Yes, I do believe there was darkness involved in her story and most likely continues til today. Wonder if her attorney keeps in touch with her, prob not, I think they scooted him out of her corner ASAP.

About the knot, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police KNOT expert was brought to Colorado by the BPD, but of course I do not recall that WE were ever told what the outcome of that inspection was. If memory serves me he was here for about two weeks checking the knot.

If you Google around you can still most likely find his name, I have long forgotten it.

.

 

[rashomon]

Yes, I do believe there was darkness involved in her story and most likely continues til today. Wonder if her attorney keeps in touch with her, prob not, I think they scooted him out of her corner ASAP.

About the knot, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police KNOT expert was brought to Colorado by the BPD, but of course I do not recall that WE were ever told what the outcome of that inspection was. If memory serves me he was here for about two weeks checking the knot.

If you Google around you can still most likely find his name, I have long forgotten it.

The rope expert's name was Van Tassell. It was he who pointed out to detectives Thomas and Trujillo that the neck and wrist ligatures were identical to the samples Steve Thomas had bought both at the McGuckin hardware and at the Army supply stores for $2.29. The cord's brand name was Coghlan's Cord, and it was a fifty-foot length of white Stansport 32-strand,3/16 inch woven cord.
On December 2, 1996, Patsy had purchased an item from the McGuckin's sports section for $2.29.
[Source Steve Thomas' book, p. 233/234]

Later cord tests confirmed Van Tassell's conclusion. (ST, p. 291)

 

[UKGuy]

The rope expert's name was Van Tassell. It was he who pointed out to detectives Thomas and Trujillo that the neck and wrist ligatures were identical to the samples Steve Thomas had bought both at the McGuckin hardware and at the Army supply stores for $2.29. The cord's brand name was Coghlan's Cord, and it was a fifty-foot length of white Stansport 32-strand,3/16 inch woven cord.
On December 2, 1996, Patsy had purchased an item from the McGuckin's sports section for $2.29.
[Source Steve Thomas' book, p. 233/234]

Later cord tests confirmed Van Tassell's conclusion. (ST, p. 291)

rashomon,

What would use would Patsy make of fifty-feet of cord ?

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[rashomon]

rashomon,

What would use would Patsy make of fifty-feet of cord ?

I don't think she bought it because she wanted to use all the fifty-feet length of the cord at once, but to cut parts off it when she needed them. Like one would buy yarn or wool for example.
Patsy was very active in different projects, and also someone who did a lot of decorating in her house, so maybe she needed the cord for that type of thing. A poster on another forum also suggested the cord might have been bought for sewing purposes.

 

[Eagle1]

Hasn't it been established that duct tape also cost $2.29, and was there only one $2.29 item on her receipt?

Surely she's been asked what use she was going to make of either item, but we just haven't heard what the answer was.

Wasn't there some rope under JAR's bed, where the dust ruffle had been disturbed when someone put it under there, or maybe was even hiding under there?

If there was/were intruders, he/they evidently liked to "travel light", not bringing along any of the stuff they'd need for the "job", even having to buy the rope after he/they arrived in Boulder.

Might that mean he/they came a long way by some public transportation? And that kind of baggage would have been a nuisance and suspicious. Someone just might remember seeing it, on a train, bus, or plane.

All the staged evidences pointing to the R's strongly suggest an intruder to me, not to mention the questionable DNA.

 

[UKGuy]

Hasn't it been established that duct tape also cost $2.29, and was there only one $2.29 item on her receipt?

Surely she's been asked what use she was going to make of either item, but we just haven't heard what the answer was.

Wasn't there some rope under JAR's bed, where the dust ruffle had been disturbed when someone put it under there, or maybe was even hiding under there?

If there was/were intruders, he/they evidently liked to "travel light", not bringing along any of the stuff they'd need for the "job", even having to buy the rope after he/they arrived in Boulder.

Might that mean he/they came a long way by some public transportation? And that kind of baggage would have been a nuisance and suspicious. Someone just might remember seeing it, on a train, bus, or plane.

All the staged evidences pointing to the R's strongly suggest an intruder to me, not to mention the questionable DNA.

Eagle1

Nothing on the receipt can be definitively linked to anything in the R house.

So do you reckon some intruder decided to frame the R's but simply made a bad job it ?

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[Eagle1]

Eagle1 ..Nothing on the receipt can be definitively linked to anything in the R house.

So do you reckon some intruder decided to frame the R's but simply made a bad job it ?

Don't know, would suspect so, yes. Staging evidence pointing to the family was certainly a stupid mistake. Points away from them instead because obviously they wouldn't have staged it themselves. The officials did say it was staged.

 

[UKGuy]

Don't know, would suspect so, yes. Staging evidence pointing to the family was certainly a stupid mistake. Points away from them instead because obviously they wouldn't have staged it themselves. The officials did say it was staged.

Eagle1,

Although the intruder made a mess of the staging he/she made a better job of leaving no forensic evidence behind that demonstrated that an intruder had been in the Ramsey household?

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[Camper]

rashomon, thanks for digging up the rope experts name.

Welllllll, what outside perpetrator would take the time to tidy JonBenet up with such care? IF IF there was such a perpetrator, most likely WE would have read about him/her doing such murders yet again. The mode of operandi would fall into place would it not? Such a mentally bothered perpetrator would be buying more and more bunches of rope and duct tape, yellow legal pads, and be bothered by other out of the country business activities that made em mad enough to kill too.

OR just simple statements by parents of murdered children who make the headlines, that include saying something like, "IT was an inside job."

Fifty feet of rope. Yes it could have been purchased for an art project, but where did the project go, er for that matter where did the rest of the rope go? Since it possibly could have been purchased Dec 2, should have some left over. Seems like rope and twine was sorta out of favor by the Post Office in 1996, Postal tape was the route to use for packages to be mailed. You might think that the rope coulda been used to mail a package, but the family doesn't remember having any of THAT rope, as I recall.

When you have small boys, they do love rope, mine did. Lassos were a favorite thingie to make, or attach it to some to be dragged around or pulled. Maybe a father who had been in the Navy to demonstrate knot tying to his son. Bro was a Navy vet, and he could regail you for a long time on HOW To tie different knots.

Rope could been the tinker toy of choice since they took the Swiss Army knife away from the whittler.

One of the longest ransom notes in history found in the home of a person who majored in Journalism in college. Journalists are paid by the word certainly, OR at least paid to produce words. Word production by an intelligent person IS the ransom note.

The mystery continues.

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[Nuisanceposter]

Perhaps another reason to purchase cord/rope on Dec 2 would be for some of the 8 Christmas trees Patsy placed about in their house for the Parade of Homes Tour. Some of them were artificial, but some of them were real trees. Maybe they bought the rope thinking of needing it for tying up Christmas trees.

If the Rs are innocent and were framed, why would they have differing stories for the events of both Christmas night and the morining of the 26th, stories that contradict themselves and indicate the Rs are lying? Why does their son Burke have a recollection that differs from the story they decided to stick with? Why the heavy and immediate lawyering up? Why the refusal to cooperate with police? Why does it look and sound like Patsy wrote the RN, and why has she never been excluded as the author?

 

[Eagle1]

The rope maybe for tying up Christmas trees, and later on for boating the following summer, okay. Guess they never did go toboganning. Rope is also being discussed in the Anthony Shore thread, that SBTC (phone company) employees use prussic knots (!) and black friction tape, and there are quite a few other points of similarity. I don't know if there's a source about the knots. He's on Death Row, and wrote a letter claiming to be a musician and artist, probably lies. For some reason I can't describe, he reminds me a little of J.T. Colfax.

 

[Eagle1]

Eagle1,

Although the intruder made a mess of the staging he/she made a better job of leaving no forensic evidence behind that demonstrated that an intruder had been in the Ramsey household?...

I don't know, guess so. In Thelmadawg's most interesting thread about a Texas Death Row inmate, Anthony Shore, it was established that he had a very high IQ, didn't leave evidence at any of his murder scenes, except DNA which finally got to CODIS, and I think it was a few years later.

Leaving the garrotte was, I guess, staging. He didn't leave DNA at the Ramsey scene that we know of, if he was there, as he did in later murders, so probably isn't the one, but someone could have been with him and together they could have done the staging and note writing. He'd worked for a phone co in Texas, SBTC, and someone said JR once worked for a phone co too, didn't say where. Just a tentative impression until we find out something for sure. You'll want to read the other thread. There are a number of points of similarity with this case.

 

[Toltec]

Patsy was asked about the rope in JAR's room....she said it could belong to JAR because he was a rock climber. Or perhaps Burke because according to Patsy, Burke played "boat" out in the backyard.

It was suggested that the cord was possibly used by Patsy to hang pictures. As was the duct tape. Duct tape was found behind a frame of JonBenet's picture but it was a different brand and color.

Patsy wrote in one of her Christmas letters that Burke was "quite the sailor" so I believe he was keen on different types of knots.