The danger of a closed mind

[Nuisanceposter]

For argument's sake though, even if Patsy had killed her and told John and he went along with it as you say, I just can't believe that when Patsy showed John the note she had written, that he wouldn't have said "Oh Patsy, this ransom note is absolutely ridiculous! Ransom notes are never three pages long! We'll have to write another one, you can write it but I'll tell you what to write."

I have wondered this myself. Even if Patsy didn't tell John she wrote the note, he would have recognized it as written by her by the handwriting and way of speaking/writing. Was he clueless as to what was going on, so he rolled with it, or was he just hoping it would be okay since they were out of time to rewrite it better?

I can't figure out if John was part of the murder and/or staging or if he went into as confused as to what was really going on as anyone else would be if they awoke to that situation.

 

[sharpar]

I won't argue with you about the ransom note - I believe that Patsy wrote it for sure. But I don't agree that Patsy killed JonBenet.

For argument's sake though, even if Patsy had killed her and told John and he went along with it as you say, I just can't believe that when Patsy showed John the note she had written, that he wouldn't have said "Oh Patsy, this ransom note is absolutely ridiculous! Ransom notes are never three pages long! We'll have to write another one, you can write it but I'll tell you what to write."

No other suspect in my mind makes any sense.
Dont think John was given much time or choice to have any input. I dont think Patsy showed him anything but simply informed him. He probably didnt realize it was 3 pages until the police were at the house. Remember his fingerprints werent on it .

 

[sissi]

No, his fingerprints weren't on it, and the "blatted" print ascribed to Patsy turned out to be a wonderful "newsleak" but was proven a "mistake" and a "false" LEAK.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

No, his fingerprints weren't on it, and the "blatted" print ascribed to Patsy turned out to be a wonderful "newsleak" but was proven a "mistake" and a "false" LEAK.

ST's book, hb, pg 200

One thing we managed to keep from them for a while was that the lab analysts had a partial print from the ransom note. However, it didn't belong to the killer but to Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Beareau of Investigation, who handled the note during his examination. The only print identified on that note belonged to the document examiner. There was no indication that an intruder ever touched the ransom note. And it seemed odd to us that no prints were on the note from either of the parents, who presumably would have handled it and even gripped it tightly.

But lab analysts did identify seven latent fingerprints on the tablet from which the ransom note came. None of them belonged to an intruder. One belonged to Sergeant Whitson, who handled the tablet on the morning of December 26. A second belonged to CBI's Ubowski. The remaining five fingerprints were Patricia Ramsey's.

 

[UKGuy]

The Ramseys found a note at the bottom of the stairs at 5:45 am on December 26. The note said "I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow...." So they had until 10 am on December 27 to get rid of the body and then call the police and say "We were afraid to call the police because they said they would kill her. We waited until 10 am this morning but the kidnapper still hasn't called. So we decided we would have to call you after all."

aussiesheila,

Well note the staging in the ransom note, tomorrow... implying she was abducted not killed prior to midnight not long after they arrived back from the Whites.

Or does the alleged abductor not know they are going on vacation, and this is again deliberate staging to make the RN consistent?

And the Ramsey's offered various statements to back this up. Saying they placed JonBenet sleeping into bed on returning from the Whites.

the Ramseys had to know on rising, ransom note or not, that JonBenet was missing since they had to dress her and drive out for the vacation flight.

The Ramseys have only three options, keep JonBenet's body in the house, dump it away from the house, or take it with them on vacation, then report her missing later.

Fleet White never saw any body in the wine-cellar never mind white-blankets, note the plural, and the generally disregarded Barbie Nightgown, which were all evident hours later.

Just to re-iterate thats not just a body , but a body plus white blankets, plus a Barbie-Gown lying strewn on the floor.

There are just one too many objects there for an avid searcher to miss!

So get this, someone realised the police were going to find JonBenet's corpse, an all points search was probably not going to occur, so she was removed from her hiding place, and placed in the wine-cellar. We all know who the most likely person was to have done this?

But this must mean there is collusion involved, the adult Ramseys must have both known prior to the 911 call. Since post-911 call can you imagine Patsy whispering to an ignorant John 'She is lying under JARS bed' ... then John taking steps to enact a staging?


Maybe John killed JonBenet enacted a naive staging which included the hair styling, but it was Patsy revised this and who gave us the major elements of the final wine-cellar staging?

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[sissi]

Maybe the information is not stated correctly? If many people touched the note, including the Ramseys, the sweat from all could have kept any prints from being identifiable. I guess I am trying to say, they could overlap,which would give a lab the right to claim they could "not"get a print.

 

[Jayelles]

I think we should dispense with the terms RST and BORG - they are both derogatory and don't seem to serve any useful purpose. I'd rather put my energies into solving this crime than taking cheap shots at those who don't agree with my theory.

So why take cheap shots at people who dno;t agree with your theory?

I'm sorry, but I think it would be ridiculous to dispense with any words. It reminds me of the pc lobby in the UK. It used to be that schools had "remedial" classes for "backward" pupils - but then some bright spark decided that the words "remedial" and "backward" were offensive, so they came up with different terms which were used for a few years until some other bright spark decided that they too were offensive and so new terms had to be found and used until they had outgrown their acceptibility and so on.

A rose is a rose by any other name.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe the information is not stated correctly? If many people touched the note, including the Ramseys, the sweat from all could have kept any prints from being identifiable. I guess I am trying to say, they could overlap,which would give a lab the right to claim they could "not"get a print.

sissi,

But would the Ramsey dna not be in the sweat?

That their fingerprints are not on the Ransom Note is more suspicious than if it they were, since realistically you would expect a print or two to be left after they read it, but nope none.


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[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

I asked you "if they couldn't get rid of the body then why didn't they stage a killing by a child molester and write a hate note?". You replied:

I don't think I am Jayelles. The body was hidden and there was a RANSOM note left. The evidence of sexual molestation was cleaned up and the body was hidden. They called 911 and said their daughter had been kidnapped.

The point I was trying to make was - why stage a kidnapping? I have asked you this question twice now, but you seem to be avoiding answering it.

Well it's a very good question - "Why stage a kidnapping?". Perhaps if we knew who the killer was, we might be able to ask them. With regard to my opinion, I think the killer created the staging to throw the police off the scent - simple as that. I think *real* sexual molestation would have been repugnant to the killer which is why a feeble attempt was made in that respect. There weren't many other motives left to explain the brutal murder of a rich man's child and kidnapping was one of them.

I believe the real motive was hatred/resentment of Jonbenet.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I would think that if there were prints overlapping making it impossible to discern who they came from then the lab would say that.

John Ramsey supposedly laid the note out on the floor so he could read it better - his prints should be on that note.

 

[Jayelles]

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, "tomorrow" is what comes after I've had a sleep. I would still say "tomorrow" at 3am if I hadn't been to bed yet.

 

[narlacat]

rashomon,

The topic title is The danger of a closed mind and this applies to the views and opinions of Profilers and Investigators.

Consider the damage done by Lou Smit and his Intruder theory, the media promoted it, the tabloids sold in millions, dubious suspects were being flushed out everywhere, even here on websleuths the Intruder Theory morphed into DS did it, or/and NI etc.

Not all Profilers are psychologists and they have to put food on the table, so emotively satisfying rationales such as 'undoing' mechanism or 'adaptive' mechanism are simply behaviouristic truisms or skinnerisms. While they may apply in some cases, common sense should suggest there may be other more compelling reasons why blankets or nightgowns were present where they should not really be?

JonBenet may have been wrapped in a blanket to prevent cross-contamination of forensic evidence, particularly important if she is to travel in a car.

When you review the where JonBenet's body was discovered bear in mind you are looking at an alleged crime-scene, one which imo, is staged, anything discovered at the crime-scene is not there by accident, the stager selected those elements, I would propose if the Barbie nightgown arrived there by accident say by static on a blanket, then the stager would have simply removed it on the way out, and dropped it somewhere else, a simple thing to do e.g her underwear was removed.

The Barbie nightgown was there because JonBenet was intended to be found wearing it, this was to more fully reflect the staging of a victim being abducted sleeping from her bed, as it was she was still wearing her white gap top, and you can speculate about who removed her black velvet pants and underwear, the Ramseys had to contradict themselves, all three, making statements that JonBenet was carried sleeping into the house, on returning from the Whites, and placed semi-dressed into bed!

The wine-cellar staging was possibly the 2nd if not the 3rd in a sequence, this is why I mentioned JAR's bedroom as a possible intermediate location, someone else had JonBenet dressed in her day-clothes, her hair re-styled, wrapped in a blanket ready for dumping outdoors, but I speculate this was vetoed, and what you see in the wine-cellar is the result of an ad-hoc staging with amendments to try and reflect more an intruder bedtime abduction and homicide.



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UKGuy
I'm slow, so bear wth me.
Do you think JBR's body was removed form the house, and brought back??
Did the R's simply just run out of time and that was why staging went unfinished??

 

[Toltec]

The note was written to explain a dead child in the basement....

No foreign faction would think to sexually abuse a little girl..nor even kidnap her. They would take the most important child...the SON.

 

[Camper]

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, "tomorrow" is what comes after I've had a sleep. I would still say "tomorrow" at 3am if I hadn't been to bed yet.

----->>>Jayelles I totally concur, I am sitting here laffin, thank you, hee hee. Eggactly! Well put.

Wellll, the derogatory type terms came along about 8 years ago, so sorta ingrained by now, but I have never used them, my sorta good.

WHEN did it start snowing 'that' night, did it begin before they got home, or after they got home, my knowledge of winter and that very cold night would indicate that the snow would have been 'disappeared/gone' by the morning of the 26th. SO why did the Ramseys indicate the date of JonBenets death on her tombstone to be the 25th? JR=carried JonBenet up the stairs, Burke=Jon Benet walked up the stairs. If everyone was tucked in nighty night by 10PM, AND PR never got JonBenet up to go to the bathroom at midnight, why 12/25/1996 on the tombstone?

I think PR did get up in the night, and the discovery was made at the midnight time, in some fashion, either did it or found the 'did it' person AND then wrote OR rewrote the note.

I do have an open mind, it has lots of holes in it

IF she died shortly after midnight, and the snow was light, THEY being familiar with Boulder winters, could have taken her out of the house and AWAY. BECAUSE Colorado winters are very different than other parts of the country, and early morning Colorado sunshine makes tiny amounts of snow disappear ASAP.

Been in Colorado since 1946 and watched snow for 60 years here. However, I might accidentally be more sensitive and smarter than the Ramseys about winter, particularly IF there had been a known about murder in their house THAT night..

I don't believe any of us will ever live long enough to hear of a foreign faction tidying up their victim with such care. Geeze the Iraqi's don't.

IF a foreign faction wrote the note and would be calling at 10AM the next day which we have to ASSUME was the 26th, since the note was found early the 26th, and written on the 25th, (harumph). Technically I do believe the note was written in the wee hours of the 26th, and I do believe it took quite long time to get in final form.

I personally would have been standing by the phone or HOLDING it waiting for it to explode from 9:30 AM til waaay after on December 26th. Now that was not done, nor was any mention (insert hysterical mention here) to the officers of WHY the phone DID NOT RING.

lilsister, hang on and welcome to the group. Ask questions.

As a tail end wonderment, WE never saw a list of the books that were in the Ramsey house did WE? Was it JR who was the mystery story buff, I have forgotten.

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[rashomon]

Fleet White never saw any body in the wine-cellar never mind white-blankets, note the plural, and the generally disregarded Barbie Nightgown, which were all evident hours later.

Did Fleet White ever state how far he went into the wine cellar? For the body was lying to the left of the entrance door, so if he had just stood at the door to that windowless (and probably pitch-dark) room, he might not have seen it. And did FW put the lights on?

 

[UKGuy]

Did Fleet White ever state how far he went into the wine cellar? For the body was lying to the left of the entrance door, so if he had just stood at the door to that windowless (and probably pitch-dark) room, he might not have seen it. And did FW put the lights on?

rashomon,

He never put the lights on, but there would have been surrounding ambient light, the outline of JonBenet wrapped in those blankets would have been apparent, from memory I 'think' one was lying on the floor as was the Barbie-Gown.

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[UKGuy]

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, "tomorrow" is what comes after I've had a sleep. I would still say "tomorrow" at 3am if I hadn't been to bed yet.

Jayelles,

Cannot say I would disagree with you, but your subjective perspective may not match that of JonBenet's killer.


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[narlacat]

I promise not to ever make a post to this thread again, as you are all such experts and I should have gotten my facts straight before I did so. I obviously did not think before comparing JonBenet to Elizabeth Smart--my Bad. Happy Sleuthing!

lilsister
Sorry for appearing a know it all, anyone who posts on this board knows I'm not!
I am slow when it comes to true crime, and this case has baffled me for a long time now.
I think I am getting closer to the truth though, in my mind.
I kinda thought you were implying we didnt care about JonBenét and I don't know about ayone else, but she is the whole reason I post and read here....I want someone to pay for what happened to her....though the chances of that happening aren't looking too good.
I'm sorry if I offended you, I certainly didn't mean to.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

The note was written to explain a dead child in the basement....

No foreign faction would think to sexually abuse a little girl..nor even kidnap her. They would take the most important child...the SON.

Exactly. I've said the same thing myself. Going with the idea that this was done by a foreign faction as the note claims, why would they not target the son also or instead? And if they wanted to kidnap the daughter for a ransom, why stop to abuse her before they get her to wherever they're going to be keeping her?

That note was written by Patsy after JonBenet was dead to explain why she was dead, and no one foreign to the Ramsey house killed her.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy
I'm slow, so bear wth me.
Do you think JBR's body was removed form the house, and brought back??
Did the R's simply just run out of time and that was why staging went unfinished??

narlacat,

No, thats possible but unlikely.

Yes it appears they ran out of time, it depends on who you think killed JonBenet, and who attempted the wine-cellar staging?

The wine-cellar staging imo was an ad-hoc attempt to morph the crime-scene into an intruder/abduction scenario.

The ransom note is a rationale for announcing to the world that JonBenet has been abducted. e.g. not just missing.

Otherwise they would have to state they have searched the whole house from top to bottom and they do not know where JonBenet has gone. That is everything is as occurred minus the ransom note.

So there is something curious about the R's phoning 911 when they did, its as if it was part of a rehearsed script that should not be deviated from, the external motivation for the call is the ransom note, so I'm speculating there is something important about dialling 911 when they did?

Since we can all see that the ransom note is contradictory with her corpse lying down in the wine-cellar, it does not fit the eventual Ramsey intruder theory, and it does not correspond with any bona-fide kidnapper behaviour.


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