The danger of a closed mind

[lilsister]

Narlacat, (and any others who felt I was offended in any way)

No problem...did'nt mean to sound like a baby ...wah wah! I took no offense but truly was trying to communicate that I probably should have researched more before making a comment. You guys are obviously very well versed in this case and there are so many details that you really can't make an off the cuff response. I usually surf the Cold Case and Missing Persons forums and because there is usually so little evidence it is usually left up to pure conjecture. I definately did NOT wish to imply that you guys don't care about JonBenet. You obviously do if you are so dedicated to pursuing her murderer--kudos to all of your dogged sleuthing methods. I'm just glad to be a member of WS and am open to learning as much as I can and possibly sharing some ideas...I really am pretty new and could definately benefit from any help etc.

 

[aussiesheila]

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, "tomorrow" is what comes after I've had a sleep. I would still say "tomorrow" at 3am if I hadn't been to bed yet.

That doesn't alter the fact that the Ramsey's could have used the excuse "When the kidnapper didn't phone us between 8 and 10am on the 26th we thought maybe the kidnapper meant he would phone us between 8 and 10 am on the 27th so we waited another day to be sure".

 

[aussiesheila]

No other suspect in my mind makes any sense.
Dont think John was given much time or choice to have any input. I dont think Patsy showed him anything but simply informed him. He probably didnt realize it was 3 pages until the police were at the house. Remember his fingerprints werent on it .

I don't agree with the often stated claim that they were short of time to stage the coverup. At the very least they could have waited until 10 am on the 26th to call the police. And I don't agree that John would have gone along with a staging that Patsy had put together. A man like John would have to be in control of any situation he was in and once Patsy had alerted him to what she had done he would have said "Now wait a minute, let's see the ransom note you have written" and then on seeing how absurd it was would have immediately written another one.

IMO Patsy did not tell John that she wrote the note, I'm sure he realised the note was odd and only the fact that his daughter was missing made him call the police.

IMO the only scenario that makes any sense is that Patsy wrote the note to cover up for a group of people with whom she was closely associated.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
He never put the lights on, but there would have been surrounding ambient light, the outline of JonBenet wrapped in those blankets would have been apparent, from memory I 'think' one was lying on the floor as was the Barbie-Gown.

But according to Steve Thomas, the room was indeed pitch dark. (ST, p. 197):

"We conducted tedious recreations in the small room where the body was found, duplicating lighting conditions with the help of a photographic expert with sensitive meters and placing a white cotton blanket where JonBenet had lain.
John Ramsey said he spotted the blanket instantly when he opened the door. It was as dark as a coalmine at midnight in there, and to open the door, he would have had to step back to a point where a blind corner would have blocked his view. I stood where Ramsey had been and saw only a wall of impenetrable darkness."
Lou Smit: "I can see in there." [of course Smit would say that!]
Even with the light on, Detective Gosage said, "I had to step completely into the cellar and look around the corner to my left to see the blanket on the floor."

 

[Camper]

That doesn't alter the fact that the Ramsey's could have used the excuse "When the kidnapper didn't phone us between 8 and 10am on the 26th we thought maybe the kidnapper meant he would phone us between 8 and 10 am on the 27th so we waited another day to be sure".

-->>>Alrighty then, why did JR want to fly to GA early on the morning of the 26th, when LE would not let him. Wouldn't you think he would want to be there on the 27th for the phone call?

.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

Well note the staging in the ransom note, tomorrow... implying she was abducted not killed prior to midnight not long after they arrived back from the Whites.

Or does the alleged abductor not know they are going on vacation, and this is again deliberate staging to make the RN consistent?

And the Ramsey's offered various statements to back this up. Saying they placed JonBenet sleeping into bed on returning from the Whites.

the Ramseys had to know on rising, ransom note or not, that JonBenet was missing since they had to dress her and drive out for the vacation flight.

The Ramseys have only three options, keep JonBenet's body in the house, dump it away from the house, or take it with them on vacation, then report her missing later.

Fleet White never saw any body in the wine-cellar never mind white-blankets, note the plural, and the generally disregarded Barbie Nightgown, which were all evident hours later.

Just to re-iterate thats not just a body , but a body plus white blankets, plus a Barbie-Gown lying strewn on the floor.

There are just one too many objects there for an avid searcher to miss!

So get this, someone realised the police were going to find JonBenet's corpse, an all points search was probably not going to occur, so she was removed from her hiding place, and placed in the wine-cellar. We all know who the most likely person was to have done this?

But this must mean there is collusion involved, the adult Ramseys must have both known prior to the 911 call. Since post-911 call can you imagine Patsy whispering to an ignorant John 'She is lying under JARS bed' ... then John taking steps to enact a staging?


Maybe John killed JonBenet enacted a naive staging which included the hair styling, but it was Patsy revised this and who gave us the major elements of the final wine-cellar staging?

.

The note was left where Patsy was to find it and read it when she got up on the morning of the 26th. It could be argued that when the kidnapper said "tomorrow" he meant the 27th, not the 26th. In fact, when the kidnapper had not called by 10 am John and Patsy did discuss this possiblilty.

FW said he didn't see the body, but I don't believe this for one moment. I think the reason he looked in the wine cellar was to make sure the body was hidden there. IMO according to the original coverup plan the body was not meant to be found, the house was not supposed to be searched, the police were not even meant to come to the house. But this plan was ruined right from the start when Patsy went against the instructions given to her by the mastermind of the coverup and did as John told her to do, which was to call the police, which she did somewhat reluctantly.

The hair was not 'styled' as part of the staging, the hair had been caught up in two bunches, IMO to stop it from getting in the way of the ligature that the sexual abusers used as a breath control device prior to the killing.

 

[aussiesheila]

-->>>Alrighty then, why did JR want to fly to GA early on the morning of the 26th, when LE would not let him. Wouldn't you think he would want to be there on the 27th for the phone call?

.

There is no evidence that he wanted to do this.

 

[aussiesheila]

Well it's a very good question - "Why stage a kidnapping?". Perhaps if we knew who the killer was, we might be able to ask them. With regard to my opinion, I think the killer created the staging to throw the police off the scent - simple as that. I think *real* sexual molestation would have been repugnant to the killer which is why a feeble attempt was made in that respect. There weren't many other motives left to explain the brutal murder of a rich man's child and kidnapping was one of them.

I believe the real motive was hatred/resentment of Jonbenet.

My question was directed at those who think one of the Ramseys killed her. The fact that there was a ransom note in the house as well as a body makes the theory that the Ramseys killed her preposterous because they, meaning John (who would have taken control of the situation) would never have staged such a stupid coverup, he was far too intelligent.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

My question was directed at those who think one of the Ramseys killed her. The fact that there was a ransom note in the house as well as a body makes the theory that the Ramseys killed her preposterous because they, meaning John (who would have taken control of the situation) would never have staged such a stupid coverup, he was far too intelligent.

Maybe he had nothing to do with the staging, and by the time he was involved it was too late to do anything other than go with it and try to figure out what was going on.

I think Patsy wrote the RN, and I think she did it alone. I also suspect that by the time John saw it it was too late to redo anything.

That's why he was down in the basement sometime after 10 a.m. without police knowing he went down there - maybe he needed to finish the staging, putting JonBenet where she could be "found".

I don't know why everyone thinks John Ramsey is so intelligent. Obviously he was able to build up a business, but that doesn't make him some kind of mastermind that would construct a perfect crime scene - especially if he wasn't even involved in the creation of it.

 

[UKGuy]

But according to Steve Thomas, the room was indeed pitch dark. (ST, p. 197):

"We conducted tedious recreations in the small room where the body was found, duplicating lighting conditions with the help of a photographic expert with sensitive meters and placing a white cotton blanket where JonBenet had lain.
John Ramsey said he spotted the blanket instantly when he opened the door. It was as dark as a coalmine at midnight in there, and to open the door, he would have had to step back to a point where a blind corner would have blocked his view. I stood where Ramsey had been and saw only a wall of impenetrable darkness."
Lou Smit: "I can see in there." [of course Smit would say that!]
Even with the light on, Detective Gosage said, "I had to step completely into the cellar and look around the corner to my left to see the blanket on the floor."

rashomon,

Sure but that was wrt John Ramsey who had Fleet White behind him at that point in time.

When Fleet White looked in the wine-cellar possibly he really did look e.g. by stepping inside and peering around, there were other objects in the wine-cellar that would have to be discounted too.

Even if Fleet White missed her and any speculation about her being relocated later that day is groundless, John Ramsey still seemed to know where to go looking.


.

 

[lilsister]

Did they not make handwriting comparisons on the RN to definitively tell if it was written by Patsy? I am just asking this because I am not aware if it was already done.

 

[UKGuy]

There is no evidence that he wanted to do this.

At approx 1:30pm 26th December in the Ramsey house, John Ramsey was overheard by a detective making plans, on the phone, with his private pilot to fly to Atlanta that evening. This was less than 30 minutes after he had discovered JonBenet's corpse in the wine-cellar.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Did they not make handwriting comparisons on the RN to definitively tell if it was written by Patsy? I am just asking this because I am not aware if it was already done.

I believe she was the only person who was never completely excluded as the author.

 

[UKGuy]

The note was left where Patsy was to find it and read it when she got up on the morning of the 26th. It could be argued that when the kidnapper said "tomorrow" he meant the 27th, not the 26th. In fact, when the kidnapper had not called by 10 am John and Patsy did discuss this possiblilty.

FW said he didn't see the body, but I don't believe this for one moment. I think the reason he looked in the wine cellar was to make sure the body was hidden there. IMO according to the original coverup plan the body was not meant to be found, the house was not supposed to be searched, the police were not even meant to come to the house. But this plan was ruined right from the start when Patsy went against the instructions given to her by the mastermind of the coverup and did as John told her to do, which was to call the police, which she did somewhat reluctantly.

The hair was not 'styled' as part of the staging, the hair had been caught up in two bunches, IMO to stop it from getting in the way of the ligature that the sexual abusers used as a breath control device prior to the killing.

aussiesheila,

JonBenet was always going to be found, once the FBI Special Agents arrived to investigate a federal crime e.g. Kidnap, they would seal and search the house, using bloodhounds if required, this is standard practise along with wiretaps.

If the body was never to be found, how would Fleet White know where to look, why did he not remove the Barbie Gown at this point, or even dress her in it?

JonBenet's hair was styled with asymmetric pigtails held by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band respectively, one was on the top of her head the other was on the lower back of her head.

As has been discussed before this would have been uncomfortable to sleep on, and her hair and necklace were so tightly entagled in the ligature that Dr John Meyer had to cut through it to remove it from her neck!

So the pigtails never functioned as you suggest they were intended too!


.

 

[rashomon]

Even if Fleet White missed her and any speculation about her being relocated later that day is groundless, John Ramsey still seemed to know where to go looking.

Absolutely. John knew that JonBenet's body was in that room.

Nedra Paugh (ST, p. 91) btw agreed with Mervin Pugh, Suzanne Savage and John Andrew Ramsey in thinking that no stranger could have navigated that maze of a house.
Like John Ramsey himself said (ironically enough): "this was an 'inside job". So true - no outsider (=intruder) was involved there.

At approx 1:30pm 26th December in the Ramsey house, John Ramsey was overheard by a detective making plans, on the phone, with his private pilot to fly to Atlanta that evening. This was less than 30 minutes after he had discovered JonBenet's corpse in the wine-cellar.

When John Ramsey told Detective Sergeant Mason that he, his wife and his son would be flying to Atlanta that evening, saying he had someting really important to do, Mason at first thought Ramsey was planning to leave the country (PMPT, p. 22). Interesting.
To me this behavior which John Ramsey showed immediately after the discovery of JB's dead body is one of the strongest indicators of guilt. What 'really important' is there to do if you have just discovered that your child has been killed??? Wouldn't any kind of important 'business' or whatever pale in comparison to one of the worst tragedies which can happen in one's life?
Doesn't just about everything in this case: forensic evidence, behavior of the parents (behavior is alsio circumstantial evidence) scream that the Ramseys are involved?

 

[sharpar]

John has made several strange statements which could be interpreted as slips of the tongue ,including not a verbatim quote There was alot of activity in our house at 2 am. hhhmmmm

 

[sharpar]

I don't know why everyone thinks John Ramsey is so intelligent. Obviously he was able to build up a business, but that doesn't make him some kind of mastermind that would construct a perfect crime scene - especially if he wasn't even involved in the creation of it.

I agree, I also think that John is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
He seems to have made many remarks over the years that either contradict
previous statements or seem like really dumb things to say. One of the
posters on Forumn for Justice ( Sylvia ? ) who tore apart DOI I believe says that John would have been out of a job in May .

 

[sharpar]

Originally Posted by aussiesheila
My question was directed at those who think one of the Ramseys killed her. The fact that there was a ransom note in the house as well as a body makes the theory that the Ramseys killed her preposterous because they, meaning John (who would have taken control of the situation) would never have staged such a stupid coverup, he was far too intelligent.


I dont think that is true at all.
I believe that John had little to do with running the home or the nitty gritty
of raising the children . I believe that John and Patsy had very traditional
roles of he did the business and earned the money and she covered the home front. Business smarts and common sense or across the board intelligence
dont always go hand in hand. I find no evidence John is particularily bright
beyond successful business venture. He has said some pretty silly, stupid
things over the years in my opinion. He comes across to me as being a rather dull person.

 

[rashomon]

John has made several strange statements which could be interpreted as slips of the tongue ,including not a verbatim quote There was alot of activity in our house at 2 am. hhhmmmm

Wow, he actually said that? Do you know when/where he said it? Such a statement is quite a bombshell!

 

[UKGuy]

Absolutely. John knew that JonBenet's body was in that room.

Nedra Paugh (ST, p. 91) btw agreed with Mervin Pugh, Suzanne Savage and John Andrew Ramsey in thinking that no stranger could have navigated that maze of a house.
Like John Ramsey himself said (ironically enough): "this was an 'inside job". So true - no outsider (=intruder) was involved there.

When John Ramsey told Detective Sergeant Mason that he, his wife and his son would be flying to Atlanta that evening, saying he had someting really important to do, Mason at first thought Ramsey was planning to leave the country (PMPT, p. 22). Interesting.
To me this behavior which John Ramsey showed immediately after the discovery of JB's dead body is one of the strongest indicators of guilt. What 'really important' is there to do if you have just discovered that your child has been killed??? Wouldn't any kind of important 'business' or whatever pale in comparison to one of the worst tragedies which can happen in one's life?
Doesn't just about everything in this case: forensic evidence, behavior of the parents (behavior is alsio circumstantial evidence) scream that the Ramseys are involved?

rashomon,

Oh yes, very loudly too, and we have only reached 1:30 on the day she was discovered.

Its probably what makes the case look simple to solve yet digging deeper yields contradictions and dead-ends.

There is scope for them sharing dual responsibility a few theories can be proposed to suggest they both colluded in full knowledge.

One scenario has Patsy blackmailing John Ramsay to help her cover up JonBenet's death.

.