The danger of a closed mind

[rashomon]

That doesn't alter the fact that the Ramsey's could have used the excuse "When the kidnapper didn't phone us between 8 and 10am on the 26th we thought maybe the kidnapper meant he would phone us between 8 and 10 am on the 27th so we waited another day to be sure".

On closer scrutiny, that simple word 'tomorrow' is another huge indicator of Ramsey guilt because it was a blunder the ransom note writer made: for the kidnapper could not have known when exactly the Ramseys would read the ransom note, nor could the Ramseys (when reading the note) have known when exactly the kidnapper had written it. Therefore I think no kidnapper would have been that vague in giving his instructions by simply speaking of 'tomorrow': instead he would have given the Ramseys the exact date when he wanted the money to be delivered. Words like 'tomorrow' wouldn't have made any sense in a professional ransom note.
But imagine Patsy sitting there at the kitchen table in the dead of night, writing the note, using 'tomorrow', thinking of the next morning when the night was over. To Patsy it made sense ...

 

[Jayelles]

On closer scrutiny, that simple word 'tomorrow' is another huge indicator of Ramsey guilt because it was a blunder the ransom note writer made: for the kidnapper could not have known when exactly the Ramseys would read the ransom note, nor could the Ramseys (when reading the note) have known when exactly the kidnapper had written it. Therefore I think no kidnapper would have been that vague in giving his instructions by simply speaking of 'tomorrow': instead he would have given the Ramseys the exact date when he wanted the money to be delivered. Words like 'tomorrow' wouldn't have made any sense in a professional ransom note.
But imagine Patsy sitting there at the kitchen table in the dead of night, writing the note, using 'tomorrow', thinking of the next morning when the night was over. To Patsy it made sense ...

Exactly ... but we know that the ransom note was fake. Perhaps you could argue that if the Ramseys were totally innocent, then they might have argued/questioned whether the "kidnappers" meant the following day.

 

[sharpar]

Wow, he actually said that? Do you know when/where he said it? Such a statement is quite a bombshell!

No I am trying to remember it was quite some time after the murder I think and it was spoken so some interview . I have a rotten memory for
sources and dates and thought if I read it then many others had as well. Maybe someone else will remember more. I know my mouth fell open when I read it .
He either immediately edited the comment or changed the subject. I thought it was one of those slips of the tongue.
I will do some searching and see if I can find it again.

 

[UKGuy]

Exactly ... but we know that the ransom note was fake. Perhaps you could argue that if the Ramseys were totally innocent, then they might have argued/questioned whether the "kidnappers" meant the following day.

Jayelles,

Its possible that the RN author was attempting to create the impression that JonBenet had been abducted from her bed on the night of the 25th.

This is not inconsistent with the Ramsey statements that they placed a sleeping JonBenet straight to bed on returning from the Whites.

Or if as you suggest the 27th is what is intended, which if the Ramsey's were naive enough to think they could postpone a house search until then, concentrating the search outside of the house, then maybe this would give them time to arrange a cleanup, disposal, or flight to Atlanta?

Your question should really be directed to John Ramsey since he allegedly told Patsy to phone 911 immediately after or even whilst reading the Ransom Note.

We are all aware of the various courses of action open to the Ramseys that morning, aussiesheila has itemised a few.

Now Jayelles adds if the Ramsey's were innocent would they not question which day was meant, and why did everyone assume implicitly it meant the morning of the 26th?

So Patsy dialling 911 at 5:52 am has much more relevance than that of an emergency call, since the Ramsey's not only had other options, and the Ransom Note was ambiguous enough to allow for them.


.

 

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

Its possible that the RN author was attempting to create the impression that JonBenet had been abducted from her bed on the night of the 25th.

This is not inconsistent with the Ramsey statements that they placed a sleeping JonBenet straight to bed on returning from the Whites.

Or if as you suggest the 27th is what is intended, which if the Ramsey's were naive enough to think they could postpone a house search until then, concentrating the search outside of the house, then maybe this would give them time to arrange a cleanup, disposal, or flight to Atlanta?

Your question should really be directed to John Ramsey since he allegedly told Patsy to phone 911 immediately after or even whilst reading the Ransom Note.

We are all aware of the various courses of action open to the Ramseys that morning, aussiesheila has itemised a few.

Now Jayelles adds if the Ramsey's were innocent would they not question which day was meant, and why did everyone assume implicitly it meant the morning of the 26th?



.

I think the ransom note was no more than a red herring - thrown in by a panicked murderer who wanted to create distance between him/her and the crime.

I am NOT suggesting the 27th was intended. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I believe the 26th was intended - on the basis that I believe the ransom note was written before the perp went to bed and was referring to tomorrow morning as being the period following a night's sleep.

So Patsy dialling 911 at 5:52 am has much more relevance than that of an emergency call, since the Ramsey's not only had other options, and the Ransom Note was ambiguous enough to allow for them.

patsy calling 911 IS an emergency call so how can it "have more relevance than an emergency call"?

 

[UKGuy]

I think the ransom note was no more than a red herring - thrown in by a panicked murderer who wanted to create distance between him/her and the crime.

I am NOT suggesting the 27th was intended. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I believe the 26th was intended - on the basis that I believe the ransom note was written before the perp went to bed and was referring to tomorrow morning as being the period following a night's sleep.


patsy calling 911 IS an emergency call so how can it "have more relevance than an emergency call"?

Jayelles,

I am NOT suggesting the 27th was intended.

Sure but you asked hypothetically what if ...

I believe the ransom note was written before the perp went to bed and was referring to tomorrow morning as being the period following a night's sleep

I find the later ambiguous, even though you have already stated your interpretation of the 26th.

Its not certain if the time frame you are referring to is the perpetrators own subjective time frame or your own.

If the perpetrator is awake most of the night including early am of the 26th involved in the homicide of Jonbenet and its staging, then a nights sleep for this person would be the night pm of the 26th and am of the 27th, and the morning referred to could be the 27th.

Also the rationale you supply for it being the 26th paints a portrait of a sociopath violently murdering JonBenet, constructing an elaborate ransom note then retiring to bed so not to miss any beauty sleep?

I suspect any killer would be awake most of the night.

Do you think JonBenet was killed at some point between 10pm and 11:59pm on the 25th?

patsy calling 911 IS an emergency call so how can it "have more relevance than an emergency call"?

Because strictly speaking they did not need to tell anyone right away that JonBenet had been abducted, since dialling 911 at 5:52 on Dec 26th would not make her magically reappear!!

They had 4-hours until 10 am in which the abductor had stated he/she would call at any time from 8 am.

Also the 911 call should have resulted in nothing external happening, the FBI would normally setup a command center away from the house and request wiretaps etc.

This never occurred and the 911 call was answered by on duty officer Rick French.

So the 911 call may be part of a pre-planned set of steps!


.

 

[Camper]

UK Guy They had 4-hours until 10 am in which the abductor had stated he/she would call at any time from 8 am.

Also the 911 call should have resulted in nothing external happening, the FBI would normally setup a command center away from the house and request wiretaps etc.

This never occurred and the 911 call was answered by on duty officer Rick French.

So the 911 call may be part of a pre-planned set of steps!
.

----->>>I don't agree since PR was so hap hazard about the content of the note to the 911 operator. NO details about requests to NOT call anyone, per the note etc.

So how would the R's expect an off site wire tap ?, AND external investigative activities to take place, since no reading of the note to 911 about what was being asked and required of the R's OR JonBenet would be beheaded?

Critical information and it was NOT related to the 911 operator!!!!!!!!

Can you spell NUTZ?

.

 

[rashomon]

Interesting discussion, Jayelles and UKGuy.

Imo, no professional kidnapper would have simply written 'tomorrow', but have given the exact date when he wanted the money delivered. Therefore we can draw the conclusion that this ransom note was faked by a bungling amateur. (Or are there any Ramsey supporters around who still believe that the RN was written by the foreign faction?).
And that bungling amateur made another blunder: she (I think it was Patsy) wrote she would call John 'between 8 and 10 am tomorrow' and 'advised him to be rested' because 'the delivery will be exhausting'. Hmm, how could John 'be rested' if he (like the RN author must assume), is going to discover the ransom note on his stairs on the morning of the 26th and is already going to be called from at 8 am onwards on that morning?
I don't believe for a second that the writer of the faked RN had the 27th in mind. Nor btw did the Ramseys themselves go along with such an idea: they never mentioned to any police officer that maybe the RN author meant the 27th. Instead they waited together with the detectives at the scene for the kidnappers to call on the morning of the 26th.
This is just another example which shows that this whole ransom note is nothing but a jumbled mess. And the lack of consistent logic in that note just screams that it was written by a panicked parent with her mind not functioning in an analytical manner, and who concocted it in a hurry, throwing together ingredients without thinking of the overall result of that 'concoction'.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have to agree. Any kidnapper expecting a ransom would specify which exact date he expected the ransom to be delivered. He also would have taken the child with him, dead or not, as even a corpse can earn a ransom. A kidnapper also wouldn't care if the man he'd demanding the ransom from was rested or not, and he certainly wouldn't want to deal with a face to face drop off/retrieval of the money/child. And a kidnapper never would have gone on and on for three pages, sounding so familiar to JR.

The Ramseys knew the ransom note was not to be taken seriously also, or else they would have made some effort to guard their other child (woken him up and kept him with them, not send him off with a kidnapper lurking who knows where), and they would have told police in the 911 call that JonBenet's life was threatened just by calling them and the kidnapper was watching, so maybe they shouldn't show up looking like police.

 

[UKGuy]

----->>>I don't agree since PR was so hap hazard about the content of the note to the 911 operator. NO details about requests to NOT call anyone, per the note etc.

So how would the R's expect an off site wire tap ?, AND external investigative activities to take place, since no reading of the note to 911 about what was being asked and required of the R's OR JonBenet would be beheaded?

Critical information and it was NOT related to the 911 operator!!!!!!!!

Can you spell NUTZ?

.

Camper,

Here is a transcipt, along with some remarks:

THE 911 CALL

It was 5:52 a.m. when Patsy Ramsey called 911 from a wall phone in her kitchen to report her daughter was missing. She was standing only feet away from where the ransom note had been found, at the top of a stairwell leading to the basement where JonBenet's body was discovered eight hours later.

Patsy: "Police."

911: "What's going on ma'am?"

Patsy: "755 15th street."

911: "What's going on there ma'am"

Patsy: "We have a kidnapping. Hurry, please!"

911: "Explain to me what's going on. Ok?"

Patsy: "There. We have a, there's a note left and our daughter's gone."

911: "A note was left and your daughter's gone?"

Patsy: "Yes!"

911: "How old is your daughter?"

Patsy: "She's 6 years old. She's blonde, 6 years old."

911: "How long ago was this?"

Patsy: "I don't know I just got the note, and my daughter's gone."

911: "Does it say who took her?"

Patsy: "What?"

911: "Does it say who took her?"

Patsy: "No! I don't know. There's a, there's a ransom note here."

911: "It's a ransom note?"

Patsy: "It say's SBTC. Victory! Please!"

911: "Okay, what's your name? Are you Kath...?"

Patsy: "Patsy Ramsey, I'm the mother. Oh my God! Please!"

911: "Okay, I'm sending an officer over OK?

Patsy: "Please!"

911: "Do you know how long she's been gone?"

Patsy: "No I don't! Please we just got up and she's not here. Oh my god! Please!"

911: "Okay, Cal...."

Patsy: "Please send somebody."

911: "I am honey."

Patsy: "Please."

911: "Take a deep breath and..."

Patsy: "Hurry, hurry, hurry!"

911: "Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? Patsy?"
.

Patsy states "We have a kidnapping. Hurry, please!"
and
"There. We have a, there's a note left and our daughter's gone."
and
"I don't know I just got the note, and my daughter's gone."
and
"No! I don't know. There's a, there's a ransom note here."

etc etc ...

Patsy clearly tells the 911 operator "We have a kidnapping ..." and "... there's a ransom note here." and "... our daughter's gone."

This is clear and direct, no room for confusion, nothing haphazard about this communication. On relaying this information to the police standard procedure with kidnappings is to notify the FBI so they can deploy a team of Special Agents skilled in dealing with abductions. This eventually took place but after Boulder Police and Rick French had intervened thereby breaking protocol.

.

 

[Toltec]

If you listen to the 911 call...the operater caught Patsy off-guard when she asked who took her.

Patsy's answer was "what?"...but listen to the tone in her voice..."No! I don't know, there's a, there's a ransom note here."

Patsy said "ransom note" three times.

In her book, she claims that the 911 operater didn't believe her.

 

[Camper]

This is just another example which shows that this whole ransom note is nothing but a jumbled mess. And the lack of consistent logic in that note just screams that it was written by a panicked parent with her mind not functioning in an analytical manner, and who concocted it in a hurry, throwing together ingredients without thinking of the overall result of that 'concoction'.

---->>>Old ground well tromped upon over the past 9 years, exactly as Steve Thomas surmised and the FBI who stated, 'Look at the family'.

Yep, fear of being found out, first class panic, horror, a major lifechanging catastrophic event. A kidnapping, but the victim was IN THE HOUSE. Hollywood couldn't have messed it up any better.

.

 

[Camper]

Camper,

Here is a transcipt, along with some remarks:

THE 911 CALL

It was 5:52 a.m. when Patsy Ramsey called 911 from a wall phone in her kitchen to report her daughter was missing. She was standing only feet away from where the ransom note had been found, at the top of a stairwell leading to the basement where JonBenet's body was discovered eight hours later.




Patsy states "We have a kidnapping. Hurry, please!"
and
"There. We have a, there's a note left and our daughter's gone."
and
"I don't know I just got the note, and my daughter's gone."
and
"No! I don't know. There's a, there's a ransom note here."

etc etc ...

Patsy clearly tells the 911 operator "We have a kidnapping ..." and "... there's a ransom note here." and "... our daughter's gone."

This is clear and direct, no room for confusion, nothing haphazard about this communication. On relaying this information to the police standard procedure with kidnappings is to notify the FBI so they can deploy a team of Special Agents skilled in dealing with abductions. This eventually took place but after Boulder Police and Rick French had intervened thereby breaking protocol.

.

--------->>>My intent in the haphazard part of it is that, PATSY made no mention of the beheading part of the note to the 911 operator, beheading IF IF IF they contacted the police. That was critical in my view IF PR wanted to save JonBenets LIFE. My interpretation is that PATSY signed JonBenets death warrant by ignoring that part of the note and not telling the 911 operator about it. BUT why would she omit that? I think she wanted JR to believe she had not read the entire note.

ONE BRAND NEW thought just entered my head this evening, after reading the transcript of the call. It tends to make me think that JOHN THOUGHT THAT HE WAS the first person to TOTALLY read the note, and he was reading it WHILE PATSY WAS ON THE PHONE. IF IF PATSY SCREAMED for JOHN then went directly to the telephone, JOHN is left with his guard totally down, IF truth is what we have here. Another question did PR leave the note in place on the steps for JR to grab on his way down the steps, OR was in already on the floor, and still WE have zero fingerprints on IT.

He runs down the stairs and is reading it while PR is giving the quick step hurry hurry to the 911 operator. IF IF as PR says John was in the shower, there should have been some dampness from his hands and fingers ON THE PAPER, perhaps with some soap scum, when he finally held the note. OR when he came down the steps did he scoot the note off the steps with his foot, with the pages landing on the floor?

I just wonder what the conversation between JR and PR was AFTER PR did not totally hang up OR when she finally did hang up.

So the bigger question still remains, who was the note written to cover for?

Dumb kidnapper who did not take the child out of the house, and NEVER received any ransom.

.

 

[aussiesheila]

At approx 1:30pm 26th December in the Ramsey house, John Ramsey was overheard by a detective making plans, on the phone, with his private pilot to fly to Atlanta that evening. This was less than 30 minutes after he had discovered JonBenet's corpse in the wine-cellar.

Yes UKGuy, but this wasn't early in the morning as Camper claimed, and it wasn't before they found the body.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

According to DOI, the run of events is this: Patsy comes down to make coffee, sees the note but doesn't touch it, runs back up the stairs she just came down (over the note?), checks JonBenet's room, and screams for John saying JB is gone, someone has taken her (I guess Burke didn't hear that.) They both race to Burke's room, find him asleep in bed, and run back to the main hallway, John ahead of Patsy. By the time Patsy gets there, John is on the floor on his hands and knees reading the note, and tells her to call the police.

Then Patsy says "Standing next to the wall phone, I instantly dial 911, and try to make the voice on the other end of the line understand. It is as if she doesn't believe what I am saying. I slam the phone back into its cradle on the wall." Then she calls the Whites and the Fernies.

So there's no mention of John conferring to Patsy what the note says, and according to Patsy, she didn't read the note the whole way through. Curious. How did she know the information to relay? As for the description of the 911 call, I believe they described it as they did so they could say she slammed the phone down, thereby eradicating the notion that Burke could be heard on it.

Personally, if all this screaming and running around and checking on Burke went on, I'd be surprised if he slept through it.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

JonBenet was always going to be found, once the FBI Special Agents arrived to investigate a federal crime e.g. Kidnap, they would seal and search the house, using bloodhounds if required, this is standard practise along with wiretaps.

If the body was never to be found, how would Fleet White know where to look, why did he not remove the Barbie Gown at this point, or even dress her in it?

JonBenet's hair was styled with asymmetric pigtails held by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band respectively, one was on the top of her head the other was on the lower back of her head.

As has been discussed before this would have been uncomfortable to sleep on, and her hair and necklace were so tightly entagled in the ligature that Dr John Meyer had to cut through it to remove it from her neck!

So the pigtails never functioned as you suggest they were intended too!


.

UKGuy, I believe that after JonBenet was killed by a group of pedophiles in the basement some of them rang FW for help. I believe it was he who masterminded a plan to cover up for the fact that her death was the result of a session of sexual abuse in which the killing was accidental, at least on the part of those who had been, and hoped to continue, abusing her for at least another few years yet.

I believe it was FW who told them to hide the body in the cellar in the first place, so of course he knew where the body was. When he went down there as soon as he arrived at the house the next morning it was to make sure that they had done as he told them. I believe it was his idea to stage a kidnapping; as well as hiding the body until it could be gotten rid of, they were to to hide any evidence of sexual abuse in the basement and get Patsy to write a ransom note. I believe it was his intention that police should not be called if at all possible, so he gave Patsy strict instructions to include all kinds of threats in the ransom note to frighten John into not calling the police and told Patsy that after she 'discovered' the ransom note she must call him and P and they would come over and take care of everything. Unfortunately his plan began to unravel when John told Patsy to call the police and she obeyed John instead of FW. However prior to this and long before 5.52 am, FW had also called his buddy in the BPD on his home phone to instruct him that should they receive a call about a kidnapping at 755 Fifteenth Street they were not to treat it too seriously and were not to bring in the FBI. This part of the contingency plan worked very well. After the patrol officers arrived in response to the emergency call it took another 2 hours before a detective was sent by John Eller - just one lone detective, and she was the only detective there for hours and hours, despite her calling repeatedly for backup, right up until after the body was found. When the FBI did arrive JE sent them away saying the BPD could manage the case themselves.

Finding the body in the house was not part of FW's plan. His plan was that once the police and everyone else had left the house he would offer to 'stay on' 'just in case' the kidnapper should call, giving him the opportunity to remove the body from the house and dump it in the mountains. This part of his plan failed because he had not told JE that there was a body hidden in the cellar which he did not want found, so JE had not instructed Arndt to keep everyone on the ground floor of the house and not to allow them to go beyond there to where they might find the body.

Patsy has stated that JonBenet normally slept with her hair pulled back in a single bunch. I believe this was just the hair on the top of her head pulled back from off her face and would have been perfectly comfortable to sleep in. I believe it was the pedophiles who wanted to operate the neck ligature effectively who pulled the rest of her hair up in another two bunches to get it up away from her neck.

The necklace was not entangled in the ligature.

There was a small amount of hair tangled in the ligature, the tiny hairs at the nape of the neck which are always too short to be caught up in any pigtails.

Meyer cut the ligature, not because of what was caught in the knot, but because he wanted to preserve the knot for further forensic investigation!

 

[aussiesheila]

Originally Posted by aussiesheila
My question was directed at those who think one of the Ramseys killed her. The fact that there was a ransom note in the house as well as a body makes the theory that the Ramseys killed her preposterous because they, meaning John (who would have taken control of the situation) would never have staged such a stupid coverup, he was far too intelligent.


I dont think that is true at all.
I believe that John had little to do with running the home or the nitty gritty
of raising the children . I believe that John and Patsy had very traditional
roles of he did the business and earned the money and she covered the home front. Business smarts and common sense or across the board intelligence
dont always go hand in hand. I find no evidence John is particularily bright
beyond successful business venture. He has said some pretty silly, stupid
things over the years in my opinion. He comes across to me as being a rather dull person.

I agree absolutely with everything you have said in your post sharpar. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on just how smart he was though. I was simply saying I think he is too smart to have staged such a stupid coverup, I still do.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I doubt John had a whole lot to do with the cover up.

What is about FW that would make you think he'd be a party to something so insideous, aussiesheila?

I'm pretty sure LE wasn't as quick on the draw because 1.) it was a holiday, and holidays are usually slow, and 2.) Boulder Police hadn't ever dealt with something like this before.

Detective Arndt wasn't there alone for hours. Sergeant Paul Reichenbach, patrol supervisor, headed over when he heard the dispatch call, and Officer Rick French was there taking note of J and P's version of events when he arrived. By 6:45 two victim advocates from the PD had arrived, and by 7:33 a K-9 unit with tracking dog was on standby. Detectives Arndt and Patterson didn't arrive until 8:10 a.m. when they were brought up to date by Officer French. ST's book, hb, pgs 19-22

Who is FW's buddy at the BPD?

 

[aussiesheila]

On closer scrutiny, that simple word 'tomorrow' is another huge indicator of Ramsey guilt because it was a blunder the ransom note writer made: for the kidnapper could not have known when exactly the Ramseys would read the ransom note, nor could the Ramseys (when reading the note) have known when exactly the kidnapper had written it. Therefore I think no kidnapper would have been that vague in giving his instructions by simply speaking of 'tomorrow': instead he would have given the Ramseys the exact date when he wanted the money to be delivered. Words like 'tomorrow' wouldn't have made any sense in a professional ransom note.
But imagine Patsy sitting there at the kitchen table in the dead of night, writing the note, using 'tomorrow', thinking of the next morning when the night was over. To Patsy it made sense ...

Yes rashomon, well I think Patsy DID write the note so whether it was vague or not makes no difference to me. My argument is with the people who think John was involved in the coverup as well as Patsy. IMO John knew absolutely nothing about anything. IMO when Patsy screamed out to him that morning he thought it was a real kidnapping.

 

[Camper]

So in number 976th final summation of WHO did IT.

We find JR showering, Burke asleep but not asleep, and PR not giving explicit details to the 911 operator in order to SAVE JonBenets life.

Finality here: PR lost it and did it, and covered for it. JR saying it was an inside job.

Wonder how many alcohol bottles were found in the backyard trash, er was that ever checked and noted? Well it was Christmas time.

All of the roads travelled in nine plus years seem to always come back to Rome, and bunglements galore along the roadside.

Plus the R's are living in their own prison.

God bless JonBenet, she did not deserve this.

............

Thank you for the refresher on when JR tried to get outta Dodge AFTER the body was found. IF he wanted to go to Atlanta ASAP (what was he thinking ?), and he hired attorneys for the family in GA, what does all of that mean?

What I think it means is that he put 1 an 1 together and got a different number than 2. I think his role in this was to be the READER of the note, and the protector of the family.

.