The danger of a closed mind

[rashomon]

I agree absolutely with everything you have said in your post sharpar. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on just how smart he was though. I was simply saying I think he is too smart to have staged such a stupid coverup, I still do.

Staging a crime scene has less to do with intelligence than with criminal experience. Profiler Gregg McCrary said that people who are no professional criminals themselves usually do a very poor job when staging a scene. Jeffrey MacDonald for example, the doctor who killed his whole family in 1970, was very intelligent too, but had staged the scene so poorly that the first investigator who entered his living room smelled a rat immediately.
And these people (who are no professional killers) are always in some state of panic when staging a coverup, and also rushed for time. Panic prevents people from thinking clearly too.

 

[rashomon]

Because strictly speaking they did not need to tell anyone right away that JonBenet had been abducted, since dialling 911 at 5:52 on Dec 26th would not make her magically reappear!!

By calling the police the Ramseys - according to the ransom note - sealed JonBenet's fate because she would be 'beheaded'. They also sealed JonBenet's fate when calling over so many people because the note said that if the R's were caught talking to as much as a stray dog, JB would be beheaded. Their behavior shows that they did not take the ransom note seriously - because they had written it themselves.
The deadline also passed without them even paying attention to it - because they knew JB had not been kidnapped.

Their behavior also shows that John was involved in this too. For had he been clueless, wouldn't he have stopped Patsy from calling the police so quickly? By saying e. g. "You can't call the police - look what is says here: JonBenet will be beheaded if we call the police!"

 

[Jayelles]

By calling the police the Ramseys - according to the ransom note - sealed JonBenet's fate because she would be 'beheaded'. They also sealed JonBenet's fate when calling over so many people because the note said that if the R's were caught talking to as much as a stray dog, JB would be beheaded. Their behavior shows that they did not take the ransom note seriously - because they had written it themselves.
The deadline also passed without them even paying attention to it - because they knew JB had not been kidnapped.

Their behavior also shows that John was involved in this too. For had he been clueless, wouldn't he have stopped Patsy from calling the police so quickly? By saying e. g. "You can't call the police - look what is says here: JonBenet will be beheaded if we call the police!"

I've always thought that my husband and I would also have called the police ... but not immediately. I think we would have been saying "No.. wait" and that there would have been some hysterical deliberation. I think we would then have called the police but have been saying - Just tell us what to do - it says they are watching us and we've not to contact you - please don't come to the house.

 

[UKGuy]

I've always thought that my husband and I would also have called the police ... but not immediately. I think we would have been saying "No.. wait" and that there would have been some hysterical deliberation. I think we would then have called the police but have been saying - Just tell us what to do - it says they are watching us and we've not to contact you - please don't come to the house.

Jayelles,

Yes I do agree with you, and its also why I think the 911 call has more relevance than appears on the surface ...


.

 

[Seeker]

Also the 911 call should have resulted in nothing external happening, the FBI would normally setup a command center away from the house and request wiretaps etc.

This never occurred and the 911 call was answered by on duty officer Rick French.

So the 911 call may be part of a pre-planned set of steps!

I have no idea how it works where you're from, but here the normal proceedure when a 911 call comes in is to send a uniformed officer to verify the call and take a report. If the call is legit then the police notify the F.B.I.

This is clear and direct, no room for confusion, nothing haphazard about this communication. On relaying this information to the police standard procedure with kidnappings is to notify the FBI so they can deploy a team of Special Agents skilled in dealing with abductions. This eventually took place but after Boulder Police and Rick French had intervened thereby breaking protocol.

Again, maybe where you're from, but not here. Our Police check things out before they bring in outside sources. They have to verify if it's a real kidnapping instead of just some kids playing a prank.

 

[Seeker]

UKGuy, I believe that after JonBenet was killed by a group of pedophiles in the basement some of them rang FW for help. I believe it was he who masterminded a plan to cover up for the fact that her death was the result of a session of sexual abuse in which the killing was accidental, at least on the part of those who had been, and hoped to continue, abusing her for at least another few years yet.

I believe it was FW who told them to hide the body in the cellar in the first place, so of course he knew where the body was. When he went down there as soon as he arrived at the house the next morning it was to make sure that they had done as he told them. I believe it was his idea to stage a kidnapping; as well as hiding the body until it could be gotten rid of, they were to to hide any evidence of sexual abuse in the basement and get Patsy to write a ransom note. I believe it was his intention that police should not be called if at all possible, so he gave Patsy strict instructions to include all kinds of threats in the ransom note to frighten John into not calling the police and told Patsy that after she 'discovered' the ransom note she must call him and P and they would come over and take care of everything. Unfortunately his plan began to unravel when John told Patsy to call the police and she obeyed John instead of FW. However prior to this and long before 5.52 am, FW had also called his buddy in the BPD on his home phone to instruct him that should they receive a call about a kidnapping at 755 Fifteenth Street they were not to treat it too seriously and were not to bring in the FBI. This part of the contingency plan worked very well. After the patrol officers arrived in response to the emergency call it took another 2 hours before a detective was sent by John Eller - just one lone detective, and she was the only detective there for hours and hours, despite her calling repeatedly for backup, right up until after the body was found. When the FBI did arrive JE sent them away saying the BPD could manage the case themselves.

Finding the body in the house was not part of FW's plan. His plan was that once the police and everyone else had left the house he would offer to 'stay on' 'just in case' the kidnapper should call, giving him the opportunity to remove the body from the house and dump it in the mountains. This part of his plan failed because he had not told JE that there was a body hidden in the cellar which he did not want found, so JE had not instructed Arndt to keep everyone on the ground floor of the house and not to allow them to go beyond there to where they might find the body.

Patsy has stated that JonBenet normally slept with her hair pulled back in a single bunch. I believe this was just the hair on the top of her head pulled back from off her face and would have been perfectly comfortable to sleep in. I believe it was the pedophiles who wanted to operate the neck ligature effectively who pulled the rest of her hair up in another two bunches to get it up away from her neck.

The necklace was not entangled in the ligature.

There was a small amount of hair tangled in the ligature, the tiny hairs at the nape of the neck which are always too short to be caught up in any pigtails.

Meyer cut the ligature, not because of what was caught in the knot, but because he wanted to preserve the knot for further forensic investigation!

F&P White have been cleared. Twice. It seems you have this idea due to a mentally ill and delusional woman who came forward with her sick fantasies involving child sexual abuse and the media ran with it.

She was exposed for the fraud she perpetrated against the Whites. Read it for yourself. She accused John Ramsey of video taping her and selling those tapes, yet no proof of any of her allegations has ever come to light. http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=224


Linda Arndt was not the only detective sent to the home. She was the one left there, but not the only one to initially go to the house.

John Eller did not send the F.B.I. away! Local PD cannot just "send the FBI away" on a legitamite kidnapping. The F.B.I. was shown the "ransom note" and determined it was a fake kidnapping right away. They were right and even after her body was found they offered to assist the BPD. The BPD declined their assistance in the homicide investigation.

BTW I don't believe pedophiles would have a party with just one lone 6 year old girl and not actually have actual full on sex with her.

 

[Camper]

Both PR and JR seem to be in charge people, in control people.

IF I had been the mother 'that' morning I would have lost it totally, would have become a shivering mess, my husband would have taken charge, he would have called the police.

But yes, first WE would have together looked in every nook and cranny of our home, and grounds. The note warned of NOT contacting anyone, BUT what would our alternative have been in those days when cell phones did not exist when OUR children were kidnappable. We would ultimately have called the police and told them every single word of the note, and of the warnings in the note.

R's had cell phones, yet used the phone by the kitchen. I don't know about the rest of you but our cell phones reside on the main level of our home. Speculative point I guess.

Please do not tell me that it was NOT hap hazard to NOT tell the police about the warnings of death in the ransom note IF they even talked to a stray dog, puleeeeeeeeze. IF they had told 911 about the warnings, you can be certain that other early on operations would have been set up, other that piles of people trooping into the home right off the bat.

IF the R's had but told the 911 operator about the warnings, THEN most likely off site wire taps would or could have been put into place.

ONE of the Ramseys appeared to have been an avid mystery story buff, so on the job or past experience might have non to little to do with the staging, coulda been hunks and pieces of books that had been read, and movies they had seen etc.

.

 

[Toltec]

Everything but the kitchen sink was thrown into the staging process. A little bit of this, a little bit of that. As I have said before...it came out of another movie itsel..."The Usual Suspects"...which came out in 1996.

Take the brown paper bag noted in the rn. When Patsy was writing the note...she happened to glance at the paper bag that was lying near the door in the den.

 

[Camper]

Everything but the kitchen sink was thrown into the staging process. A little bit of this, a little bit of that. As I have said before...it came out of another movie itsel..."The Usual Suspects"...which came out in 1996.

Take the brown paper bag noted in the rn. When Patsy was writing the note...she happened to glance at the paper bag that was lying near the door in the den.

----->>>Great points Toltec. Writers do often gaze around their room or surroundings while writing, thinking and searching for the just right thought process to evolve. Remember Mrs. Doubtfire?

How about JR to be well rested, hmmm, just thinking about her husband sleeping peacefully while she was writing the note, and just mentally speculating about what KIND of a day tomorrow would be.

.

 

[aussiesheila]

Staging a crime scene has less to do with intelligence than with criminal experience. Profiler Gregg McCrary said that people who are no professional criminals themselves usually do a very poor job when staging a scene. Jeffrey MacDonald for example, the doctor who killed his whole family in 1970, was very intelligent too, but had staged the scene so poorly that the first investigator who entered his living room smelled a rat immediately.
And these people (who are no professional killers) are always in some state of panic when staging a coverup, and also rushed for time. Panic prevents people from thinking clearly too.

Maybe so, but I think that if one was panicked one would be even more likely to opt for the least complicated coverup one could think of.

I think in this case it would have been that an intruder strangled her and bashed her over the head and ran off, not that a kidnapper that came and wrote a ransom note then sexually abused her and changed his mind about the kidnapping but went to the trouble of hiding the body and didn't bother to retrieve the ransom note before he left.

 

[Cranberry]

IMO it's strange that when PR called 911 she told the operator a "note" was left, instead of the more accurate description: 2 1/2 page letter. That may have led to more questions though. Also thought it was strange that she didn't stay on the line w/the operator longer. It's not like she was checking the house, opening the door or looking out a window to see what/where direction her daughter had been taken. She hangs up from the operator and immediately calls her friends to come over - to a situation of who knows what?

 

[aussiesheila]

F&P White have been cleared. Twice. It seems you have this idea due to a mentally ill and delusional woman who came forward with her sick fantasies involving child sexual abuse and the media ran with it.

She was exposed for the fraud she perpetrated against the Whites. Read it for yourself. She accused John Ramsey of video taping her and selling those tapes, yet no proof of any of her allegations has ever come to light. http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=224


Linda Arndt was not the only detective sent to the home. She was the one left there, but not the only one to initially go to the house.

John Eller did not send the F.B.I. away! Local PD cannot just "send the FBI away" on a legitamite kidnapping. The F.B.I. was shown the "ransom note" and determined it was a fake kidnapping right away. They were right and even after her body was found they offered to assist the BPD. The BPD declined their assistance in the homicide investigation.

BTW I don't believe pedophiles would have a party with just one lone 6 year old girl and not actually have actual full on sex with her

FW was 'cleared' because he demanded to be cleared. He carried on so much it was easier for the BPD and the DA's office to issue a statement to the effect that he had been cleared. Privately though the agreed between themselves that if they needed to 'unclear' him they would do just that.

I came up with my theory long before I had even heard of Nancy Krebs. Even if her entire story turns out to be fabricated, it would make no difference to what I believe. As far as I am concerned she is completely peripheral to the JonBenet case.

Arndt was the only detective sent to the home, prior to her arrival there were only patrol officers.

JE did not call the FBI as he should have in the case of a kidnapping. Prior to the body being found and for the whole morning of the 26th he refused to call the FBI. Someone else in the BPD eventually called them and by the time they arrived the body had been found.

Whether you believe it or not makes no difference to whether or not it actually did happen. I believe it happened that way because it fits in with everything that is known about the case.

 

[aussiesheila]

IMO it's strange that when PR called 911 she told the operator a "note" was left, instead of the more accurate description: 2 1/2 page letter. That may have led to more questions though. Also thought it was strange that she didn't stay on the line w/the operator longer. It's not like she was checking the house, opening the door or looking out a window to see what/where direction her daughter had been taken. She hangs up from the operator and immediately calls her friends to come over - to a situation of who knows what?

Yes Patsy's behaviour is strange, strange, strange that is unless you accept the idea that she was in on the coverup. Then her behaviour is easily explainable IMO.

IMO she wrote the note, she knew it was going to be at the bottom of the stairs when she came down that morning because she had put it there. She knew her daughter hadn't been kidnapped, she knew JonBenet's body was in the cellar. I think it was Patsy who took the nightgown down there to change the body into because she didn't want JonBenet to be found in longjohns and the shirt she had worn then day before. But I think that when Patsy got to the cellar and saw the state of the body she dropped the nightgown on the floor and fled in horror.

 

[rashomon]

Maybe so, but I think that if one was panicked one would be even more likely to opt for the least complicated coverup one could think of.

I think in this case it would have been that an intruder strangled her and bashed her over the head and ran off, not that a kidnapper that came and wrote a ransom note then sexually abused her and changed his mind about the kidnapping but went to the trouble of hiding the body and didn't bother to retrieve the ransom note before he left.

The coverup was more a jumbled mess than complicated, and in their panicky state the Rs could not put the various elements to fit together anymore.
I think they originally planned to dump JB's body (I believe they thought JB was dead after the headbash) somewhere outside but didn't dare to do it after all. So what are they going to do? Their dead child is lying in their own home with her head bashed in on Christmas night and both parents are in the home too. They know that if they leave it at that and claim that JB fell against something, the trained hospital staff would soon prove them wrong and tell them that JB either was hit or thrown against a hard object. They can't run that risk. Everything would point to them. Therefore they felt the need to introduce:
- an 'outside' element (a kidnapper who wrote a ransom note and intruded into the house)
- a 'bizarre' element which in its bizarreness should point away from the parents, which is why they staged the sexual assault and garroting.

And during all their hectic staging activity, they forgot that the parts of the staging did not fit together.

Excellent point aussiesheila about Patsy possibly wanting to put the nightgown on JB, but fleeing in horror from the basement. This could explain the nightgown being left there.
Only that I don't think PR would ever have covered up for any pedophiles who had abused and killed her daughter. Jmpo, but I think the only person Patsy Ramsey would have covered up for is herself.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes Patsy's behaviour is strange, strange, strange that is unless you accept the idea that she was in on the coverup. Then her behaviour is easily explainable IMO.

IMO she wrote the note, she knew it was going to be at the bottom of the stairs when she came down that morning because she had put it there. She knew her daughter hadn't been kidnapped, she knew JonBenet's body was in the cellar. I think it was Patsy who took the nightgown down there to change the body into because she didn't want JonBenet to be found in longjohns and the shirt she had worn then day before. But I think that when Patsy got to the cellar and saw the state of the body she dropped the nightgown on the floor and fled in horror.

aussiesheila,

You do not know if JonBenet's corpse was lying in the wine-cellar prior to the 911-call!

Fleet White also stated he saw nothing in the wine-cellar when he looked.

So it could be JonBenet's corpse was hidden elsewhere in the house!

Its more probable that John and Patsy colluded together.

Whilst a residue of forensic evidence was left in the wine-cellar that linked to Patsy, some also linked to John, but he had a shower that morning, conveniently, just before he ordered patsy to diall 911, in the full knowledge it may harm Jonbenet!


.

 

[Seeker]

FW was 'cleared' because he demanded to be cleared. He carried on so much it was easier for the BPD and the DA's office to issue a statement to the effect that he had been cleared. Privately though the agreed between themselves that if they needed to 'unclear' him they would do just that.

I came up with my theory long before I had even heard of Nancy Krebs. Even if her entire story turns out to be fabricated, it would make no difference to what I believe. As far as I am concerned she is completely peripheral to the JonBenet case.

Arndt was the only detective sent to the home, prior to her arrival there were only patrol officers.

JE did not call the FBI as he should have in the case of a kidnapping. Prior to the body being found and for the whole morning of the 26th he refused to call the FBI. Someone else in the BPD eventually called them and by the time they arrived the body had been found.

Whether you believe it or not makes no difference to whether or not it actually did happen. I believe it happened that way because it fits in with everything that is known about the case.

You might want to do some further fact checking. You've gotten some misinformation.

F&P White could not be cleared just because they demanded to be. That is absurd and it doesn't work that way, maybe it does in Australia. Anyone who was cleared, even Burke could have been put back on the suspect list if information and/or evidence were developed to suggest they had involvement. That they could be placed back on the suspect list was not privately agreed to within the BPD. The DA's office never said a word about clearing him or his wife so how was it "easier" for them to just give in to "his demands"?
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0417jon.htm

I have NO idea where you got the idea that the F.B.I. wasn't called or arrive until the body had been found. They were there early in the morning, they looked at the ransom note and determined it was a fake. I don't know what book you're using, but here is one thing I can find on the net that is pretty comprehensive. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0126timea.htm


Linda Arndt was not the only detective at the home that morning, she was the first one to arrive, but not the only one unless you can prove otherwise.

BTW she was ordered to stay there by one of her supervisors, do you think a patrol officer supervises detectives?

 

[Toltec]

Two detectives showed up at the home...Arndt and Fred Patterson. In the end, Arndt was left alone.

The FBI was called...four Special Agents came from Denver and one was Ron Walker, a criminal profiler. FBI used BPD Headquarters as their base. When JonBenet's body was found, SA Walker came to the Ramsey home, inspected the wine cellar...and told LE to "Look at the parents, seriously.".

Aussie....I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is in all the books and the NE book on the Ramsey interrogations.

 

[Rupert]

Everything but the kitchen sink was thrown into the staging process. A little bit of this, a little bit of that. As I have said before...it came out of another movie itsel..."The Usual Suspects"...which came out in 1996.

Take the brown paper bag noted in the rn. When Patsy was writing the note...she happened to glance at the paper bag that was lying near the door in the den.

Toltec,
Can you give us further explanation why you think "The Usual Suspects" was an inspiration to the perp? I have not seen the movie, but am well aware that whoever wrote the RN must have been a kidnap crime movie buff or come kind of cel phone link to someone like that. Were there things in the movie that you can see in the JonBenet scene?

 

[narlacat]

Does anyone have a list mental or otherwise, of all the movies that were used to make up content in the RN?

 

[Rupert]

Does anyone have a list mental or otherwise, of all the movies that were used to make up content in the RN?

Seven
Ruthless People if..., she dies, if..., she dies, if..., she dies,.....
Ransom
Dirty Harry "if we catch you talkin to a stray dog"
Speed "dont grow a brain"

But where does "Victory! S.B.T.C" come from? I have searched for all kinds of movies and nothing leaps out. The fact that it doesn't connect means to me that the note throws everything in but the kitchen sink, and then says something else at the very end (perhaps Saved by the Cross which is the closest I have found to Dirty Harry).