The danger of a closed mind

[Paradox]

Books, don't forget books.

 

[narlacat]

I think the movie Rope was another one.

 

[rashomon]

Seven
Ruthless People if..., she dies, if..., she dies, if..., she dies,.....
Ransom
Dirty Harry "if we catch you talkin to a stray dog"
Speed "dont grow a brain"

But where does "Victory! S.B.T.C" come from? I have searched for all kinds of movies and nothing leaps out. The fact that it doesn't connect means to me that the note throws everything in but the kitchen sink, and then says something else at the very end (perhaps Saved by the Cross which is the closest I have found to Dirty Harry).

It has nothing to do with a movie, but read somewhere that S.B.T.C. might be the abbreviation for 'Subic Bay Training Center', where John was stationed (on the Philippines?). Of course this would be somewhat absurd, but the whole ransom note is absurd, and maybe this was just another of the random elements the writer threw into that note.

 

[Tricia]

S.B.T.C. was made up by Patsy. I don't think it means a thing.

Patsy had a habit of signing or beginning notes using initials. I can't remember exactly how she use to do it but it would be something like;

To Mary Smith
M.A.S.U.S.C.
Meaning, Maters in Arts and Sciences University Southern California

I just made this particular signature up but you get the idea.

From what I have read Patsy did this all the time when she wrote notes to people.

A very unusal thing to do when writing a note. Low and behold, this EXACT type of signature ends up on the ransom note.

Go figure

 

[Paradox]

And Victory!, does that mean nothing as well?

 

[rashomon]

Fleet White also stated he saw nothing in the wine-cellar when he looked.

So it could be JonBenet's corpse was hidden elsewhere in the house!

Its more probable that John and Patsy colluded together.

Whilst a residue of forensic evidence was left in the wine-cellar that linked to Patsy, some also linked to John, but he had a shower that morning, conveniently, just before he ordered patsy to diall 911, in the full knowledge it may harm Jonbenet!

Jmpo, but I don't think John Ramsey would have had the nerve to move JB's body from another room into the wine cellar with detective Arndt already in the house. This would have been very, very risky.
I just read in PMPT that the wine cellar was indeed pitch-black and Fleet White only stood at the threshold and did not step in. I believe he just could not see JB's body which was lying to the left of the entrance door and not right before him.
When Arndt lost track of John, he probably did go down, closed the broken window and took a last look at JonBenet, the full impact of what he and Patsy had done beginning to set in.

I think John helped Patsy in the staging and coverup because I can't imagine a hysterical person like Patsy being able to pull this through alone.

 

[UKGuy]

Jmpo, but I don't think John Ramsey would have had the nerve to move JB's body from another room into the wine cellar with detective Arndt already in the house. This would have been very, very risky.
I just read in PMPT that the wine cellar was indeed pitch-black and Fleet White only stood at the threshold and did not step in. I believe he just could not see JB's body which was lying to the left of the entrance door and not right before him.
When Arndt lost track of John, he probably did go down, closed the broken window and took a last look at JonBenet, the full impact of what he and Patsy had done beginning to set in.

I think John helped Patsy in the staging and coverup because I can't imagine a hysterical person like Patsy being able to pull this through alone.

rashomon,

I think its safe to assume she was not killed in the wine-cellar? Her body was wrapped in blankets and relocated there from somewhere else in the house.

There was strands of a green substance tangled in JonBenet's hair, possibly from the holiday garland that decorated the spiral staircase?

If your scenario was more or less what took place, then I would factor in a phone call to the authorities, since where she was discovered and the transparent staging, contradict the intention of the ransom note!


.

 

[Tricia]

And Victory!, does that mean nothing as well?

It only means something as far as Patsy creating the perfect "ransom" note in her mind. She was trying to make it look like a terrorist group did the crime.

What is interesting is the exclamation point. Patsy used "!" all the time in her notes to people. In fact there is a great graphic that shows a Patsy "!" and the "!" from the ransom note. They look like one was photo copied from another.

 

[Toltec]

Toltec,
Can you give us further explanation why you think "The Usual Suspects" was an inspiration to the perp? I have not seen the movie, but am well aware that whoever wrote the RN must have been a kidnap crime movie buff or come kind of cel phone link to someone like that. Were there things in the movie that you can see in the JonBenet scene?

The Usual Suspects was a movie about murder, starring Kevin Spacey. Spacey is sitting in a Police Detectives office, speaking about this murder-conspiracy and throws out names, everything from coffee mugs to plaques in the detectives office to explain away this conspiracy. It was a big hit in 1996.

 

[Toltec]

rashomon,

I think its safe to assume she was not killed in the wine-cellar? Her body was wrapped in blankets and relocated there from somewhere else in the house.

There was strands of a green substance tangled in JonBenet's hair, possibly from the holiday garland that decorated the spiral staircase?

If your scenario was more or less what took place, then I would factor in a phone call to the authorities, since where she was discovered and the transparent staging, contradict the intention of the ransom note!


.

Let's not forget the cord fibers found on her bed sheets.

And the dirt and lint on JonBenet's feet.

 

[UKGuy]

Let's not forget the cord fibers found on her bed sheets.

And the dirt and lint on JonBenet's feet.

Toltec,

Thanks, yes particularly if the cord fibers match and are not a police over-emphasis to invoke a confession, e.g. fibers consistent with those ... etc.

Her feet, like the pink barbie gown, are one of the overlooked items of forensic evidence. I assume where something cannot be made to fit some theory it is just excluded or it arrives by accident?

I have mentioned this before, but if she was placed in bed on returning from the Whites, why no mention of her socks being removed, her black velvet pants were flagged up, to explain away the longjohns, so how come her feet became bare and collected forensic detritus?

Accidents, rages etc, do not seem to measure up to the amount of staging and forensic cleansing that took place.

Is there any record of Patsy ever physically punishing JonBenet, how did her parents chastise her?

.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

I think its safe to assume she was not killed in the wine-cellar? Her body was wrapped in blankets and relocated there from somewhere else in the house.

There was strands of a green substance tangled in JonBenet's hair, possibly from the holiday garland that decorated the spiral staircase?

I too think it is safe to assume JB's body was relocated from somewhere in the house and ended up in the wine cellar, but I don't believe John Ramsey moved her body to the wine cellar after detectives were already in the house. I think her body had already been put in the wine cellar before the police arrived at the scene.

I have a question: where was the paint tray kept? In the wine cellar?
For if it was, it is logical to assume that the ligatures and the garrote contraption were applied on JB's dead body there.
Imo the blanket in which JB was wrapped was a final act of 'undoing' the crime on the part of one parent.
Is it known where that blanket came from?

Re the cord fibers in JB's bed: was it definitely established that these fibers were consistent with the cord which was around JB's neck and hands?

If your scenario was more or less what took place, then I would factor in a phone call to the authorities, since where she was discovered and the transparent staging, contradict the intention of the ransom note!

Everything contradicts everything in this staging because it seems that the Ramseys in their panic considered (and staged) several scenarios, ending up with an overall scenario where the different parts did not fit together: they invented a kidnapping scenario to intruduce an outside (intruder) element which should point away from them, and they invented a bizarre (sexual assault/garroting) element which should point away from them too. "The more things which direct the attention away from us, the better" - I'm convinced that this is what drove them.
Which is why we have this jumbled mess, and despite the police smelling a rat right from the start, the Ramseys have not been brought to justice.
Too bad John Eller thought the BPD could handle this case alone, and declined further assistance from the FBI. If the FBI had stayed involved, the Ramseys would not have gotten away with this crime.

Is there any record of Patsy ever physically punishing JonBenet, how did her parents chastise her?

It seems that JB was never punished (physically or otherwise). Both Ramseys obviously were very indulgent parents to the point of spoiling their children.
But even indulgent parents can fly off the handle, given the circumstances.

 

[Paradox]

What is interesting is the exclamation point. Patsy used "!" all the time in her notes to people. In fact there is a great graphic that shows a Patsy "!" and the "!" from the ransom note. They look like one was photo copied from another.

!mag!ne that!

 

[Toltec]

And Victory!, does that mean nothing as well?

Read my signature...

 

[aussiesheila]

The coverup was more a jumbled mess than complicated, and in their panicky state the Rs could not put the various elements to fit together anymore.
I think they originally planned to dump JB's body (I believe they thought JB was dead after the headbash) somewhere outside but didn't dare to do it after all. So what are they going to do? Their dead child is lying in their own home with her head bashed in on Christmas night and both parents are in the home too. They know that if they leave it at that and claim that JB fell against something, the trained hospital staff would soon prove them wrong and tell them that JB either was hit or thrown against a hard object. They can't run that risk. Everything would point to them. Therefore they felt the need to introduce:
- an 'outside' element (a kidnapper who wrote a ransom note and intruded into the house)
- a 'bizarre' element which in its bizarreness should point away from the parents, which is why they staged the sexual assault and garroting.

But rashomon the autopsy evidence shows that the strangling with the ligature was a real strangling, not a staged one and that it took place before the head bash. If you are convinced that a Ramsey did it then you must come up with a theory that involves Patsy or Burke or John strangling JonBenet with the ligature before one or other of them bashes her over the head with something.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

You do not know if JonBenet's corpse was lying in the wine-cellar prior to the 911-call!

Fleet White also stated he saw nothing in the wine-cellar when he looked.

So it could be JonBenet's corpse was hidden elsewhere in the house!

Its more probable that John and Patsy colluded together.

Whilst a residue of forensic evidence was left in the wine-cellar that linked to Patsy, some also linked to John, but he had a shower that morning, conveniently, just before he ordered patsy to diall 911, in the full knowledge it may harm Jonbenet!


.

I happen to think that when FW stated he saw nothing in the wine cellar he was lying. I believe JonBenet's body was placed there soon after she was murdered at around 2 am and that her body was there all the time until John found it at 1.30 pm.

 

[aussiesheila]

You might want to do some further fact checking. You've gotten some misinformation.

F&P White could not be cleared just because they demanded to be. That is absurd and it doesn't work that way, maybe it does in Australia. Anyone who was cleared, even Burke could have been put back on the suspect list if information and/or evidence were developed to suggest they had involvement. That they could be placed back on the suspect list was not privately agreed to within the BPD. The DA's office never said a word about clearing him or his wife so how was it "easier" for them to just give in to "his demands"?
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0417jon.htm

I have NO idea where you got the idea that the F.B.I. wasn't called or arrive until the body had been found. They were there early in the morning, they looked at the ransom note and determined it was a fake. I don't know what book you're using, but here is one thing I can find on the net that is pretty comprehensive. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0126timea.htm


Linda Arndt was not the only detective at the home that morning, she was the first one to arrive, but not the only one unless you can prove otherwise.

BTW she was ordered to stay there by one of her supervisors, do you think a patrol officer supervises detectives?

I'll go and check up on where I read that stuff Seeker. I think it was in PMPT. Thanks for the links to the rockymountainnews but I really don't think that this source would be any more reliable than PMPT.

 

[aussiesheila]

Two detectives showed up at the home...Arndt and Fred Patterson. In the end, Arndt was left alone.

The FBI was called...four Special Agents came from Denver and one was Ron Walker, a criminal profiler. FBI used BPD Headquarters as their base. When JonBenet's body was found, SA Walker came to the Ramsey home, inspected the wine cellar...and told LE to "Look at the parents, seriously.".

Aussie....I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is in all the books and the NE book on the Ramsey interrogations.

I'm checking.....I'm checking.....

 

[ellen13]

The Usual Suspects was a movie about murder, starring Kevin Spacey. Spacey is sitting in a Police Detectives office, speaking about this murder-conspiracy and throws out names, everything from coffee mugs to plaques in the detectives office to explain away this conspiracy. It was a big hit in 1996.

Just love Kevin Spacey!! He was good in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, Outbreak with Dustin Hoffman, and American Beauty with Annette Bening.

 

[Toltec]

I'm checking.....I'm checking.....

This scenario is in Steve Thomas book.