The danger of a closed mind

[aussiesheila]

All the while she's being restrained by wrist ties so loose they can just slip off? Hardly.

Wrong SuperDave, the knots were tight and the wrist ties or loops, although loose, were not loose enough to slip over her hands, which I theorise were held up over her head with her arms outstretched and straight, held taut by the wrist loops being tethered to some point overhead, either on a doorjam or a pipe along the ceiling.

 

[trixie]

 

[Bev]

have you considered that maybe Patsy was going to put the body in the suitcase and couldn't go through with it? I was thinking along those lines, anyone else think that might have happened? On the other hand, it might not be related to the case at all.

 

[tumble]

Bev, yes I though along those lines trying to explain the strange abrasions on her body.

I thought maybe someone squeezed her into a suitcase and her back and cheek where pressed against something pertruding inside the case.

Could be screws for example holding the case together.

 

[IrishMist]

Wrong SuperDave, the knots were tight and the wrist ties or loops, although loose, were not loose enough to slip over her hands, which I theorise were held up over her head with her arms outstretched and straight, held taut by the wrist loops being tethered to some point overhead, either on a doorjam or a pipe along the ceiling.

In my opinion, this scenario would have left abrasions and/or rope burn marks on her wrists.

 

[BBB167893]

Right, and there weren't any.

The coroner stated that he could just slip one of them right off.

 

[aussiesheila]

In my opinion, this scenario would have left abrasions and/or rope burn marks on her wrists.

Well maybe, but maybe not. If she was standing on a chair and her arms were not taking any of her body weight and with the sleeve of the shirt under the cord giving some protection, especially as the cuff area of the sleeve would kind of bunch up between the cord and the hand as cord slid up towards the upwardly extended hand. There just might not have been any marks at all or none that would last 6 or so hours.

 

[aussiesheila]

The coroner stated that he could just slip one of them right off.

Oh SuperDave really? Where?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Right, and there weren't any.

The coroner stated that he could just slip one of them right off.

The argument that the second ligature was used only for a prop is being presented here based on an after-the-fact observation.

Just because the ligature was loose when found on JBR's dead body, doesn't mean it was loose when she was alive. Just because it didn't leave any marks on her wrists doesn't automatically mean it was never effective at restraining her.

Anybody who has ever been arrested can tell you they didn't have handcuff marks on their wrists the next day, and most of those are made of metal. So the argument that because there was no marks, there was no restraining, isn't really valid, is it.

Thats where most have missed the point of this garrote-second ligature combination weapon. And why this weapon wouldn't need any drugging to go with it.

 

[tumble]

HOTYH:
interesting theory about the ligatures.
but to go further a plausible function should be supplied.
Have you formed a theory of how those ligatures(neck and wrists) would work together.

 

[BBB167893]

"Just because the ligature was loose when found on JBR's dead body, doesn't mean it was loose when she was alive. Just because it didn't leave any marks on her wrists doesn't automatically mean it was never effective at restraining her."

But she supposedly "got a piece" of her killer. Which was it?

"Oh SuperDave really? Where?"

Right here:

"Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve"

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

But she supposedly "got a piece" of her killer. Which was it?

You're forcing a decision between complete restraint or complete free arm motion during the entire time she was with her attacker. I don't feel I have to make a 'choice', as it is not an 'either, or' decision. Maybe you should rephrase your question, if you really even have one.

 

[BBB167893]

You're forcing a decision between complete restraint or complete free arm motion during the entire time she was with her attacker. I don't feel I have to make a 'choice', as it is not an 'either, or' decision. Maybe you should rephrase your question, if you really even have one.

It doesn't really matter, HOTYH. The evidence suggests that it was neither.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH:
interesting theory about the ligatures.
but to go further a plausible function should be supplied.
Have you formed a theory of how those ligatures(neck and wrists) would work together.

I have more an observation than a theory. The observation is that the second ligature has this extra length, that would allow it to be incorporated into the working of the garrote.

 

[BBB167893]

Except that they weren't connected to each other physically, last I knew.

 

[rashomon]

Anybody who has ever been arrested can tell you they didn't have handcuff marks on their wrists the next day, and most of those are made of metal. So the argument that because there was no marks, there was no restraining, isn't really valid, is it.

And anybody who has ever been kidnapped can probably tell you that their kidnapper tied their wrists very close together and did not leave a 15 1/2 inch space of cord between them, which would in fact have made free movement of the hands possible (like in JB's case).

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And anybody who has ever been kidnapped can probably tell you that their kidnapper tied their wrists very close together and did not leave a 15 1/2 inch space of cord between them, which would in fact have made free movement of the hands possible (like in JB's case).

JBR wasn't kidnapped. She was brutally murdered, remember?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Except that they weren't connected to each other physically, last I knew.

Are you ready to assume they were never connected at any time?

 

[rashomon]

JBR wasn't kidnapped. She was brutally murdered, remember?

HOTYH: I don't remember that she was 'brutally murdered'. In all probability she was bashed on the head by an enraged parent, and all the following actions were done for staging purposes.
But even if we go along with your scenario that JB was 'brutally murdered': would such a scenario explain that a brutal murderer left a 15 1/2 inch space between the wrist ligatures?

Why do you think the 'brutal murderers' left that space of cord between JB's hands?
I wrote 'brutal murderers' because you made it clear in prior posts that you actually believe the 'small foreign faction' committed this crime.
And now you say JB wasn't kidnapped, but brutally murdered?
What happened to your foreign faction theory, HOTYH?

 

[Britt]

Anybody who has ever been arrested can tell you they didn't have handcuff marks on their wrists the next day

Obviously that depends on whether or not they resisted arrest.

I think we can assume that a conscious, unwilling kidnap victim would resist.