The dead squirrel

[Tulessa]

It is a transcript of the March 13 pretrial hearing that I am looking for. I am currently at work and most sites are blocked. I will look again tonight at home after I cook supper. My brother said it was out there in you tube video and it was 2 hours long and he didn't have time to watch something that long. So, I am hoping for a transcript.

If I am wrong about this, I will appologize and stand corrected, but first I need to see the doc myself.IMO

Tagging for later.......

 

[BeanE]

BBM
Living in Florida, I will venture an answer and say YES, his apartment has a garbage disposal.
I have lived in apartments and homes in the Orlando area and every one of them had a garbage disposal installed in the kitchen sink.
I would also venture and say the A's home has a garbage disposal as well.

Are these the apartments? Sutton Place in Winter Park? If so, they have garbage disposals.

http://www.forrent.com/apartment-co...t.com/apartment-community-profile/1005970.php

 

[BeanE]

HL and JB should have AT THE VERY LEAST pretended to believe the dead squirrel story. By not looking at the under carriage tells this Mommy one thing..they didn't believe it either. Why else would you not look at a huge piece of evidence or to most of us...non-evidence??? JMHO of course.

So much points to the defense team knowing by Nov 2008 that Caylee was dead :-(

 

[PrintGal]

You are all forgetting the gospel according to CA- just because KC tells lies doesn't make her a murderer!

I am wondering how much attention the dead squirrel lie will get in court- possibly it will just be mentioned as further evidence to impeach her credibility, but with everything else in play don't see this being a large area of focus. Especially when compared to the duct tape, the invisa-nanny, etc.

 

[21merc7]

I agree printgal, it may never be mentioned in Court.

 

[AZlawyer]

It is a transcript of the March 13 pretrial hearing that I am looking for. I am currently at work and most sites are blocked. I will look again tonight at home after I cook supper. My brother said it was out there in you tube video and it was 2 hours long and he didn't have time to watch something that long. So, I am hoping for a transcript.

If I am wrong about this, I will appologize and stand corrected, but first I need to see the doc myself.IMO

The hearing was March 12, and I think I know what you think you remember from that hearing. Baez was arguing that the State should pay for him to have Dr. Lee return, because the white garbage bag was not available for examination at the time Dr. Lee was there. (It was with one of the State's experts, although all the garbage from the bag was available and was examined by Dr. Lee.) The State objected to paying for Dr. Lee to return; there was no objection made to him returning if Baez/Casey/whoever paid for him. IIRC, the judge denied Baez's motion to have the State pay for Dr. Lee to come out for a second examination. He didn't say Dr. Lee couldn't come out. In addition, I don't think anyone on the defense team has ever suggested that they were unable to complete the examination of the car that day.

 

[coco puff]

hi all, first time posting so please bear with me. I have a nagging question about the garbage found in the trunk, and I am not sure where to ask it. I did a search and this thread came up so I will just go ahead and ask here (hopefully not off topic) do you think TL has a garbage disposal? who has gaarbage with no food scraps whatsoever in it? no piece of hard pizza crust, no leftover noodles from mac and cheese diiners, no scrapen the plates off from the stoffers dinner, nothing? am I missing something? am I the only one that thinks this is odd? I know my garbage is always full of food. but maybe that is because, I always have my grandbaby over and she never finishes her food. also I have no garbage displosal? sorry so long, I just wanted to know what all of you think.thanks

no food and no finger prints either. almost seems like the scene was staged.

 

[The World According]

The hearing was March 12, and I think I know what you think you remember from that hearing. Baez was arguing that the State should pay for him to have Dr. Lee return, because the white garbage bag was not available for examination at the time Dr. Lee was there. (It was with one of the State's experts, although all the garbage from the bag was available and was examined by Dr. Lee.) The State objected to paying for Dr. Lee to return; there was no objection made to him returning if Baez/Casey/whoever paid for him. IIRC, the judge denied Baez's motion to have the State pay for Dr. Lee to come out for a second examination. He didn't say Dr. Lee couldn't come out. In addition, I don't think anyone on the defense team has ever suggested that they were unable to complete the examination of the car that day.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/031209Casey_Anthony_Motion_hearing I believe it starts at the 52 minute mark.

 

[coco puff]

I was watching a Discovery channel show on what it takes to get the smell of a dead person out of a car. bottom line: You can't. States exibit A will forever smell like there has been a dead body in the damn car". I forsee a field trip for the jurors.

 

[MD MOMMY]

I agree with you! They don't even make the pretense.
Not only did George never borrow her car, according to him, she ran off with Cindy's car for one afternoon for some reason unkown to Mom and Pop. What in the world?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P7ctBlt-jc

This is slightly off topic, but does anyone remember the interview with JB WAY back where he laughed at one of KC's stories? I THINK it was about Zanny? This is going to take some digging. It goes along with this premise. Some of the early actions and words/laughter of the defense gave the inclination that they thought KC was full of it as well. IMO.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Dr. Lee has not inspected the undercarriage of the Pontiac. (for whatever reason)
I followed all the links posted in this thread in an effort to find the results from OCSO in regard to what was or was not found on the undercarriage. I also searched without luck for two hours trying to find this information elsewhere. Could someone please point me to the page number on the link that provides this information. I am under the impression that no squirrel or parts of a squirrel were found on this undercarriage, but would like to see documented confirmation of this. However, due to the following, I’m not all that sure that the squirrel or lack of the squirrel will have an impact on this case.

On page 6566 of the released docs, you will find the conclusions made by Dr. Vass in regard to the odor signature in the trunk from the carpet removed and analyzed from that trunk. He lists six items that indicate that a portion of the total odor signature in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with an early decompositional event that could be of human origin. This conclusion has led to many forming the opinion that the odor in the trunk was caused by human decomposition. The opinion I formulate from this conclusion is that the defense will ask this question Although the total odor signature in the trunk is consistent with an early decompositional event, that could be of human origin, are there other possibilities that could reasonably explain these conclusions, that are not of human origin? If yes, what are these possibilities? My point is that although I can agree that it is likely that these conclusions are correct, and the decompositional event in the trunk was from human origin, I want to be certain there is not a reasonable argument that the decompositional event may be from something other than human origin.
On page 6557 it is stated that Fatty acids, such as the ones detected, (palmitic, stearic,
myristic, oleic) indicate a fat decomposition product LIKE ADIPOCERE(grave wax) on the paper towels. NOTE he does not say it is ADIPOCERE he says a fat product like ADIPOCERE. Later in paragraph While the amounts of these acids can vary, the fatty acid ratios detected on the paper towels are quite consistent with those identified in human and PIG decomposition studies. Many have formed the opinion based on this report that there was ADIPOCERE on the napkin and it was from human decomp. I understand how someone could have that opinion. My opinion was formulated by realizing that the white trash bag may have come from the kitchen since there were items in the garbage that would normally have been found in a kitchen trash bag, and since it likely came from the kitchen, I am of the opinion that the fat decomposition product on the paper towels is not ADIPOCERE, but instead is pig fat (possibly bacon fat). I am of this opinion because in my own home I have wiped up bacon grease with napkins and threw the napkins in the trash. To further support my opinion all five components listed on page 6563 Ketone (propanone), Alde Hyde (decanal), Alde Hyde (butanal), Alcohol (hexanol), and Alcohol (ethanol), are detected in human remains, but all five are also found in pig remains.
Therefore, my final opinion based on the above information from the documents is that the substance found on the napkins is pig fat (bacon grease), not ADIPOCERE. That the odor signature from the carpet sample could be of human origin, but it could be from some other origin. And finally, that amount of amount of decompositional material found in the interior of the trunk was not abundant enough to be the cause of the odor that has come to be known as the Smell of Death in this case, and that same odor was still detectable several months later.
Lastly, I will say there is no indication that a squirrel (dead or alive) was ever in the trunk. Also there is no indication that pizza was found in the white trash bag. Tests were done to prove the odor did not come from a squirrel or pizza. I could not find any tests done to prove that the odor could not have come from the remaining items that were found in the white trash bag.
Someone mentioned that butyric acid was found in the scrapings from the carpet in the trunk. They mentioned that butyric acid is found in human decomp and in rancid butter. I just thought I should mention that butyric acid is also found in vomit. Obviously there was no rancid butter in the trunk, however, a towel that was used to wipe up vomit, then placed in the dirty laundry with other dirty laundry (there was mention of possible laundry in the trunk, in GA’s deposition, and even if I am mistaken about GA’s depo, I will say from personal experience I have had dirty laundry in my trunk) may have transferred trace amounts of vomit to the carpet of the trunk, that could explain the butyric acid on the carpet.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6551.6591.pdf

I believe I am part of a minority that does not believe KC is guilty of premeditated murder. I also believe that I am part of the majority that wants justice for Caylee, and in my opinion justice for Caylee will require finding out the whole truth about what happened to her. Whether the state is correct and KC is guilty of premeditated murder, or there was an accident that caused Caylee’s demise, or that SODDI, I do not know. My opinion that KC is not guilty of premeditated murder is not based on half truths or lies, my opinion is based on reading the docs, and my own interpretation of reading those docs. It is disheartening to me, when I have worked rather hard to state my case as to how I formed my opinion, only to have it disregarded as fabrication, mistruth or attempting to spread rumor. I assure everyone, that is not my intent. My intent is to find out the whole truth about what happened to Caylee. I also believe there are a number of exceptional sleuthers who are very adept at posting links, while others are not, either way I respect their opinions. I am not in any way trying to sway anyone to change their opinion, I am simply stating my own opinion, and how I arrived at that opinion

 

[logicalgirl]

I wonder if there is any change in the composition of pig/bacon fat after it has been cooked?

 

[amethyst221]

I can only speak for myself, but you seem to be saying that despite the expert conclusions, you choose to reject them based on questions that you anticipate the defense will ask about other weak possibilities, or maybe based on your personal anecdotal "evidence." You can't expect that that will be persuasive to others, although it's your right to so conclude and to express your opinions.

Meant to respond to DA.

 

[Harmony 2]

I find it interesting that there was no package for bacon in the trash.

 

[Tulessa]

Dr. Lee has not inspected the undercarriage of the Pontiac. (for whatever reason)
I followed all the links posted in this thread in an effort to find the results from OCSO in regard to what was or was not found on the undercarriage. I also searched without luck for two hours trying to find this information elsewhere. Could someone please point me to the page number on the link that provides this information. I am under the impression that no squirrel or parts of a squirrel were found on this undercarriage, but would like to see documented confirmation of this. However, due to the following, I’m not all that sure that the squirrel or lack of the squirrel will have an impact on this case.

On page 6566 of the released docs, you will find the conclusions made by Dr. Vass in regard to the odor signature in the trunk from the carpet removed and analyzed from that trunk. He lists six items that indicate that a portion of the total odor signature in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with an early decompositional event that could be of human origin. This conclusion has led to many forming the opinion that the odor in the trunk was caused by human decomposition. The opinion I formulate from this conclusion is that the defense will ask this question Although the total odor signature in the trunk is consistent with an early decompositional event, that could be of human origin, are there other possibilities that could reasonably explain these conclusions, that are not of human origin? If yes, what are these possibilities? My point is that although I can agree that it is likely that these conclusions are correct, and the decompositional event in the trunk was from human origin, I want to be certain there is not a reasonable argument that the decompositional event may be from something other than human origin.
On page 6557 it is stated that Fatty acids, such as the ones detected, (palmitic, stearic,
myristic, oleic) indicate a fat decomposition product LIKE ADIPOCERE(grave wax) on the paper towels. NOTE he does not say it is ADIPOCERE he says a fat product like ADIPOCERE. Later in paragraph While the amounts of these acids can vary, the fatty acid ratios detected on the paper towels are quite consistent with those identified in human and PIG decomposition studies. Many have formed the opinion based on this report that there was ADIPOCERE on the napkin and it was from human decomp. I understand how someone could have that opinion. My opinion was formulated by realizing that the white trash bag may have come from the kitchen since there were items in the garbage that would normally have been found in a kitchen trash bag, and since it likely came from the kitchen, I am of the opinion that the fat decomposition product on the paper towels is not ADIPOCERE, but instead is pig fat (possibly bacon fat). I am of this opinion because in my own home I have wiped up bacon grease with napkins and threw the napkins in the trash. To further support my opinion all five components listed on page 6563 Ketone (propanone), Alde Hyde (decanal), Alde Hyde (butanal), Alcohol (hexanol), and Alcohol (ethanol), are detected in human remains, but all five are also found in pig remains.
Therefore, my final opinion based on the above information from the documents is that the substance found on the napkins is pig fat (bacon grease), not ADIPOCERE. That the odor signature from the carpet sample could be of human origin, but it could be from some other origin. And finally, that amount of amount of decompositional material found in the interior of the trunk was not abundant enough to be the cause of the odor that has come to be known as the Smell of Death in this case, and that same odor was still detectable several months later.
Lastly, I will say there is no indication that a squirrel (dead or alive) was ever in the trunk. Also there is no indication that pizza was found in the white trash bag. Tests were done to prove the odor did not come from a squirrel or pizza. I could not find any tests done to prove that the odor could not have come from the remaining items that were found in the white trash bag.
Someone mentioned that butyric acid was found in the scrapings from the carpet in the trunk. They mentioned that butyric acid is found in human decomp and in rancid butter. I just thought I should mention that butyric acid is also found in vomit. Obviously there was no rancid butter in the trunk, however, a towel that was used to wipe up vomit, then placed in the dirty laundry with other dirty laundry (there was mention of possible laundry in the trunk, in GA’s deposition, and even if I am mistaken about GA’s depo, I will say from personal experience I have had dirty laundry in my trunk) may have transferred trace amounts of vomit to the carpet of the trunk, that could explain the butyric acid on the carpet.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6551.6591.pdf

I believe I am part of a minority that does not believe KC is guilty of premeditated murder. I also believe that I am part of the majority that wants justice for Caylee, and in my opinion justice for Caylee will require finding out the whole truth about what happened to her. Whether the state is correct and KC is guilty of premeditated murder, or there was an accident that caused Caylee’s demise, or that SODDI, I do not know. My opinion that KC is not guilty of premeditated murder is not based on half truths or lies, my opinion is based on reading the docs, and my own interpretation of reading those docs. It is disheartening to me, when I have worked rather hard to state my case as to how I formed my opinion, only to have it disregarded as fabrication, mistruth or attempting to spread rumor. I assure everyone, that is not my intent. My intent is to find out the whole truth about what happened to Caylee. I also believe there are a number of exceptional sleuthers who are very adept at posting links, while others are not, either way I respect their opinions. I am not in any way trying to sway anyone to change their opinion, I am simply stating my own opinion, and how I arrived at that opinion

BBM. I posed this same question to an expert. Read below.

Tulessa said, on October 2, 2009 at 3:59 pm

Just a quick question. Can bacon grease be mistaken for grave wax? Say, wiped on a paper towel?

D.P. Lyle, MD said, on October 2, 2009 at 5:11 pm

It’s possible at least visually–particularly if it has been there a while and has dried to a denser consistency.


Tulessa said, on October 3, 2009 at 4:23 am

Ok, I should have been more clear on what I was asking. In a case in Florida, the FBI determined that Grave wax was found on some paper towels in the trunk of a car. Some people have said that it could be plain ole bacon grease. Is that so? Would the FBI not know the difference? Thanks hun!

Found his answer!

D.P. Lyle, MD said, on October 3, 2009 at 6:07 am

Visually they might appear similar but the lab would have no trouble distinguishing one from the other.

http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/dead-folks-and-decay/#comment-534

 

[manatee]

Dr. Lee has not inspected the undercarriage of the Pontiac. (for whatever reason)
I followed all the links posted in this thread in an effort to find the results from OCSO in regard to what was or was not found on the undercarriage. I also searched without luck for two hours trying to find this information elsewhere. Could someone please point me to the page number on the link that provides this information. I am under the impression that no squirrel or parts of a squirrel were found on this undercarriage, but would like to see documented confirmation of this. However, due to the following, I’m not all that sure that the squirrel or lack of the squirrel will have an impact on this case.

On page 6566 of the released docs, you will find the conclusions made by Dr. Vass in regard to the odor signature in the trunk from the carpet removed and analyzed from that trunk. He lists six items that indicate that a portion of the total odor signature in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with an early decompositional event that could be of human origin. This conclusion has led to many forming the opinion that the odor in the trunk was caused by human decomposition. The opinion I formulate from this conclusion is that the defense will ask this question Although the total odor signature in the trunk is consistent with an early decompositional event, that could be of human origin, are there other possibilities that could reasonably explain these conclusions, that are not of human origin? If yes, what are these possibilities? My point is that although I can agree that it is likely that these conclusions are correct, and the decompositional event in the trunk was from human origin, I want to be certain there is not a reasonable argument that the decompositional event may be from something other than human origin.
On page 6557 it is stated that Fatty acids, such as the ones detected, (palmitic, stearic,
myristic, oleic) indicate a fat decomposition product LIKE ADIPOCERE(grave wax) on the paper towels. NOTE he does not say it is ADIPOCERE he says a fat product like ADIPOCERE. Later in paragraph While the amounts of these acids can vary, the fatty acid ratios detected on the paper towels are quite consistent with those identified in human and PIG decomposition studies. Many have formed the opinion based on this report that there was ADIPOCERE on the napkin and it was from human decomp. I understand how someone could have that opinion. My opinion was formulated by realizing that the white trash bag may have come from the kitchen since there were items in the garbage that would normally have been found in a kitchen trash bag, and since it likely came from the kitchen, I am of the opinion that the fat decomposition product on the paper towels is not ADIPOCERE, but instead is pig fat (possibly bacon fat). I am of this opinion because in my own home I have wiped up bacon grease with napkins and threw the napkins in the trash. To further support my opinion all five components listed on page 6563 Ketone (propanone), Alde Hyde (decanal), Alde Hyde (butanal), Alcohol (hexanol), and Alcohol (ethanol), are detected in human remains, but all five are also found in pig remains.
Therefore, my final opinion based on the above information from the documents is that the substance found on the napkins is pig fat (bacon grease), not ADIPOCERE. That the odor signature from the carpet sample could be of human origin, but it could be from some other origin. And finally, that amount of amount of decompositional material found in the interior of the trunk was not abundant enough to be the cause of the odor that has come to be known as the Smell of Death in this case, and that same odor was still detectable several months later.
Lastly, I will say there is no indication that a squirrel (dead or alive) was ever in the trunk. Also there is no indication that pizza was found in the white trash bag. Tests were done to prove the odor did not come from a squirrel or pizza. I could not find any tests done to prove that the odor could not have come from the remaining items that were found in the white trash bag.
Someone mentioned that butyric acid was found in the scrapings from the carpet in the trunk. They mentioned that butyric acid is found in human decomp and in rancid butter. I just thought I should mention that butyric acid is also found in vomit. Obviously there was no rancid butter in the trunk, however, a towel that was used to wipe up vomit, then placed in the dirty laundry with other dirty laundry (there was mention of possible laundry in the trunk, in GA’s deposition, and even if I am mistaken about GA’s depo, I will say from personal experience I have had dirty laundry in my trunk) may have transferred trace amounts of vomit to the carpet of the trunk, that could explain the butyric acid on the carpet.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6551.6591.pdf

I believe I am part of a minority that does not believe KC is guilty of premeditated murder. I also believe that I am part of the majority that wants justice for Caylee, and in my opinion justice for Caylee will require finding out the whole truth about what happened to her. Whether the state is correct and KC is guilty of premeditated murder, or there was an accident that caused Caylee’s demise, or that SODDI, I do not know. My opinion that KC is not guilty of premeditated murder is not based on half truths or lies, my opinion is based on reading the docs, and my own interpretation of reading those docs. It is disheartening to me, when I have worked rather hard to state my case as to how I formed my opinion, only to have it disregarded as fabrication, mistruth or attempting to spread rumor. I assure everyone, that is not my intent. My intent is to find out the whole truth about what happened to Caylee. I also believe there are a number of exceptional sleuthers who are very adept at posting links, while others are not, either way I respect their opinions. I am not in any way trying to sway anyone to change their opinion, I am simply stating my own opinion, and how I arrived at that opinion

well stated views and I respect them. However, considering that most people have dealt with the remains of bacon fat and have never confused it with a dead body or decomposition and given the fact that we also have coffin flies and two independent cadaver dogs hit on the trunk of the car....it seems a reasonable conclusion that there was a dead body in the "dam car." If you add that a hair with "death ring" that belonged to either KC or Caylee was found and we know KC is alive and Caylee was murdered....then the only reasonable conclusion is that the body of Caylee was in the trunk of that car. IMO
In either case, the smell has nothing to do with premeditation, just murder.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

BBM. I posed this same question to an expert. Read below.

Tulessa said, on October 2, 2009 at 3:59 pm

Just a quick question. Can bacon grease be mistaken for grave wax? Say, wiped on a paper towel?

D.P. Lyle, MD said, on October 2, 2009 at 5:11 pm

It’s possible at least visually–particularly if it has been there a while and has dried to a denser consistency.


Tulessa said, on October 3, 2009 at 4:23 am

Ok, I should have been more clear on what I was asking. In a case in Florida, the FBI determined that Grave wax was found on some paper towels in the trunk of a car. Some people have said that it could be plain ole bacon grease. Is that so? Would the FBI not know the difference? Thanks hun!

His response to me is now gone but he said the FBI would have no problem distinguishing between the two.

http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/dead-folks-and-decay/#comment-534

Tulessa, thanks for posting that again. I appreciate you asking the expert. And as indicated, and logic would dictate.......the biological signature of densified bacon fat and grave wax would be entirely different, and a cakewalk for the FBI to differentiate between.

 

[coco puff]

If it was bacon fat, show me a dead pig.
if it was dead person, show me the body.

Pretty easy when you think about it.

 

[manatee]

If it was bacon fat, show me a dead pig.
if it was dead person, show me the body.

Pretty easy when you think about it.

well, their argument is that is was bacon fat not a dead pig. I'm saying it was a dead body because of all the other facts that we know to be true that are way more plausible than bacon fat

 

[Marina2]

I would not be surprised if the car still smells of decomposition. The trash from the car will be brought into the courtroom. The jury will see it and they will smell it. They may also be given a trip to the car and will, imo, still smell the stench in the trunk. Without any forensic testing, they should be able to decide if the smell came from the trash which was brought into court. If the trunk still smells bad but the trash has no odor at all, how could it be that the trash caused the smell?