The Eighth Pair of Underwear

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab

I think there was blood and saliva found on the size 12 panties the body was wearing.

I think you say the panties were placed on the body after death so you must think the stains got on the panties after death

Can you please elaborate a bit further on why you think this.

This is not a hostile question. Please I am interested to know

aussiesheila,

Correct. IMO JonBenet's two blood spots on the crotch of the size 12/14 panties, mixed with apparent saliva containing the killer's DNA, was seepage from JonBenet's vagina after death. The sexual assault had already occurred and JonBenet had been cleaned up and re-dressed in the oversized panties when the seepage leaked out.

In my theory the size 6 panties JonBenet had been wearing was taken by the killer because he figured they likely contained DNA evidence from him. But when he went upstairs to look for underwear to replace the size 6's he couldn't find any because they were kept in the bathroom, so the perp settled for the size 12/14's he found in her bedroom.

 

[Eagle1]

aussiesheila,Correct. IMO JonBenet's two blood spots on the crotch of the size 12/14 panties, mixed with apparent saliva containing the killer's DNA, was seepage from JonBenet's vagina after death. The sexual assault had already occurred and JonBenet had been cleaned up and re-dressed in the oversized panties when the seepage leaked out.

In my theory the size 6 panties JonBenet had been wearing was taken by the killer because he figured they likely contained DNA evidence from him. But when he went upstairs to look for underwear to replace the size 6's he couldn't find any because they were kept in the bathroom, so the perp settled for the size 12/14's he found in her bedroom.

Yes, I agree the killer must have taken the size 6 panties because he knew about DNA and fibers, and way back even before DNA, panties often used to be taken by sexual killers as souvenirs.

If the oversize panties were put on at bedtime, to cover a Pull-Up, which had never been done before, the size 6 ones wouldn't likely be missing, right? They would be on the floor or in the hamper.

 

[aussiesheila]

Yes, I agree the killer must have taken the size 6 panties because he knew about DNA and fibers, and way back even before DNA, panties often used to be taken by sexual killers as souvenirs.

If the oversize panties were put on at bedtime, to cover a Pull-Up, which had never been done before, the size 6 ones wouldn't likely be missing, right? They would be on the floor or in the hamper.

I think if the killer had taken the panties she was wearing so as not to leave any incriminating evidence, he would have re-dressed her only in the longjohns. I think it is absurd to suggest he would risk getting caught by going back to her bedroom to get her a clean pair of panties when the longjohns alone would have been perfectly adequate.

 

[UKGuy]

aussiesheila,

Correct. IMO JonBenet's two blood spots on the crotch of the size 12/14 panties, mixed with apparent saliva containing the killer's DNA, was seepage from JonBenet's vagina after death. The sexual assault had already occurred and JonBenet had been cleaned up and re-dressed in the oversized panties when the seepage leaked out.

In my theory the size 6 panties JonBenet had been wearing was taken by the killer because he figured they likely contained DNA evidence from him. But when he went upstairs to look for underwear to replace the size 6's he couldn't find any because they were kept in the bathroom, so the perp settled for the size 12/14's he found in her bedroom.

BlueCrab,
Your theory seems to go along with much of the evidence.

But when he went upstairs to look for underwear to replace the size 6's he couldn't find any because they were kept in the bathroom

Does this make your perpetrator a stranger to the Ramsey household, since its possible to suggest, the knowledge required to navigate the house reflects the opposite?

This aspect to the crime-scene, which as you know, I consider to be wholly staged, is more than a simple book-keeping detail. Like her staged garrote it has the potential to disconfirm some long held theories.

IMO JonBenet's two blood spots on the crotch of the size 12/14 panties, mixed with apparent saliva containing the killer's DNA

Do you have a source for this specific body fluid?


.

 

[solidarity]

Surely they can determine if the size 12's were on her all day by examining them for fibers consistent with her black velvet pants and/or the tights she may have worn. This is something we do not know, I haven't seen any "leaks" pointing to an answer for this.

As a mother, I can tell you that you don't need forensic tests to determine what clothes were worn by a child all day. A simple "sniff" test is usually enough!!

 

[dingo]

Any mother who could not remember whether her six year old had a bath before going to a party is so far out that I quiver and quake with disbelief. There was just one tiny girl for heavens sake. I had eight children, five girls and three boys and WE went to parties. My family always presented a nice appearance and were neat and tidy in their best bib and tucker.

How about WE are going to get ready now for the party, I am wearing my red sweater and I want you to wear your red shirt. WE can dress just alike and that will be so cool er, huh, duh.

Noooooooo mother, I want to wear my white shirt with the star on it. Noooooooooo JonBenet, wear the red one, so you can be a big girl just like mommy. Noooooooooooo, IF you want me to be a big girl, I want to wear the big girl panties. Noooooooooo JonBenet you are not old enough yet. How far this negotiating difference might have lasted or how involved it was WE donut know. I suspect it became quite vociferous.

I can see one of the two of them, destroying the ability of the red sweater to be worn by mucking it up. I believe that JonBenet could or would have ended up wearing the white shirt with the star on it. PLUS JonBenet most likely in my opinion, got the big girl panties out anyway and put them on.

Boy oh boy would I love to see pictures of JonBenet at the Whites party.


,

Hi Camper,just want to start by saying that I find your posts very down to earth and I enjoy reading them.
Patsy has no excuse for not remembering the daily habits of her little girl,with JBR,s problems down below,you would think that Patsy would have made sure she was kept clean and dry.
If nothing else Patsy is certainly guilty of neglect of her daughter.

 

[aussiesheila]

aussiesheila,

Correct. IMO JonBenet's two blood spots on the crotch of the size 12/14 panties, mixed with apparent saliva containing the killer's DNA, was seepage from JonBenet's vagina after death. The sexual assault had already occurred and JonBenet had been cleaned up and re-dressed in the oversized panties when the seepage leaked out.

In my theory the size 6 panties JonBenet had been wearing was taken by the killer because he figured they likely contained DNA evidence from him. But when he went upstairs to look for underwear to replace the size 6's he couldn't find any because they were kept in the bathroom, so the perp settled for the size 12/14's he found in her bedroom.

But BlueCrab, I can't see any reason why the perpetrator would feel the need to replace the panties at all. It was a lot of trouble and a big risk going back upstairs again. Surely he would have considered the longjohns alone were adequate for the redressing.

 

[sharpar]

Only reason I can think of why perp would put panties back on her is because she was wearing them when she was undressed to begin with. Not wearing any might have caused more speculation, raised another red flag than the risk of finding another pair to re-dress her.

 

[Toltec]

The police confiscated six of the size 12 panties from the home....JonBenet was wearing the "wednesday" panties at the morgue.

The soiled pants found in JonBenet's bathroom are the ones she likely wore Christmas day. When asked by Patsy to dress for the party, JonBenet took her pants off by pulling them down and then stepping on them, causing the pants to be turned inside out.

As far as the panties she was wearing with the pants.....WHERE ARE THEY??? Did JonBenet wear her soiled panties to the Whites??? I am positive she did not put the "wednesday" panties on before going to the Whites because she would have left skid marks on them.

So the scenario is this: Patsy tells JonBenet to dress up for the party. JonBenet enters her bathroom and removes her pants and shirt....then puts on her tights and velvet pants. She then argues with Patsy about the red turtleneck...so then she puts on the white Gap shirt and velvet vest.

JonBenet did not bathe Christmas Day.

When asked by Detectives if JonBenet washed her hands, Patsy claimed she did not know and it is more likely that she didn't because if she could get away with not washing....she wouldn't.

So you have JonBenet playing outside Christmas day....coming in the house and not washing up and only dresses up for the party.

She did not have skid marks on her size 12 panties.

So the logical thing is....she wore the soiled panties to the Whites. The killer wiped her "down there" before putting the size 12 panties on her.

It is my belief that it was Patsy herself who took her to the toilet at 11m (her usual time) and discovered that JonBenet was wearing soiled panties.

 

[Eagle1]

..........
As far as the panties she was wearing with the pants.....WHERE ARE THEY??? Did JonBenet wear her soiled panties to the Whites??? I am positive she did not put the "wednesday" panties on before going to the Whites because she would have left skid marks on them........

JonBenet did not bathe Christmas Day.......She did not have skid marks on her size 12 panties.........So the logical thing is....she wore the soiled panties to the Whites. The killer wiped her "down there" before putting the size 12 panties on her......It is my belief that it was Patsy herself who took her to the toilet at 11m (her usual time) and discovered that JonBenet was wearing soiled panties.

If you're right, that Patsy found at 11 pm she was wearing soiled, (Wed?) panties, MAYBE JonBenet explained that she hadn't changed them because she wanted so much to wear the day-of- the -week ones, so, in a festive holiday mood, going to meet Melinda's fiance next day, what the heck, Patsy decided to put the bigger day-of- the- week ones on her. Just a possibility, not definitely my theory. Now are we still missing a pear of smaller ones? It's getting a bit late and a person could begin to get slightly confused.

 

[dingo]

Were the tuesday panties accounted for?

 

[narlacat]

<<It's getting a bit late and a person could begin to get slightly confused.>>


A person could, and usually always is.

 

[narlacat]

Were the tuesday panties accounted for?

Dingo,
The seven pairs of the days of the week underwear were all accounted for.

 

[dingo]

Thankyou

 

[Eagle1]

<<It's getting a bit late and a person could begin to get slightly confused.>> A person could, and usually always is.

Some people title a thread something like "Crazy Idea", just being humble, (one example in the Natalee Holloway forum) and I assure you, so was I. Not that it's any big deal, just don't want you to be confused about what I meant. :boohoo:

 

[Eagle1]

Dingo,
The seven pairs of the days of the week underwear were all accounted for.

Who put her in the size 12's? Who can tell us that? I certainly don't claim to know for sure.

 

[aussiesheila]

As far as the panties she was wearing with the pants.....WHERE ARE THEY??? Did JonBenet wear her soiled panties to the Whites??? I am positive she did not put the "wednesday" panties on before going to the Whites because she would have left skid marks on them.

She did not have skid marks on her size 12 panties.

So the logical thing is....she wore the soiled panties to the Whites. The killer wiped her "down there" before putting the size 12 panties on her.

It is my belief that it was Patsy herself who took her to the toilet at 11m (her usual time) and discovered that JonBenet was wearing soiled panties.

If JonBenet had soiled her panties during the day at home she would most likely have left the main skid marks on those panties.

I am not sure if there were any soiled panties found on the bathroom floor, but if there were I don't think we can assume they were left there Christmas Day - they could have been there for any number of days, right up to the last time Linda H-P was there cleaning up.

I think JonBenet dropped the panties she was wearing on Christmas Day on the floor of her bedroom and got the size 12 ones out of her bedroom cupboard herself, and wore them to the Whites. I think she decided to do this because she did not want to go back to the bathroom to get a pair of her regular panties because her mother was in there, "balling" her red sweater and fuming and raging at her, and rather than have yet another confrontation with her mother, JonBenet decided to make do with some size 12 panties from her bedroom cupboard.

 

[Eagle1]

I agree with you that JonBenet may have put the larger panties on herself, for whatever reason, either what you said or maybe because she'd been having a rough time lately and needed a special treat for herself. She wasn't feeling well that day. Maybe one of the ailments she went to the pediatrician and school nurse about, so many times. Either one works for me.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree with you that JonBenet may have put the larger panties on herself, for whatever reason, either what you said or maybe because she'd been having a rough time lately and needed a special treat for herself. She wasn't feeling well that day. Maybe one of the ailments she went to the pediatrician and school nurse about, so many times. Either one works for me.

Eagle1,

Maybe she did not dress herself in those size-12's. What would work for me is an examination of the forensic evidence.

If she had dressed herself in those size-12's prior to going to the whites, then there will be fiber transer from her black velvet pants onto the size-12's, so this is a question that can be answered!


.

 

[Eagle1]

You're so right, and we temporarily forgot, some black fibers would have transferred to the probably-cotton underpants from the black velvet pants. Hopefully we can all remember that better from now on.

Thanks, UK Guy.