The Eighth Pair of Underwear

[rashomon]

The staging was so successful in this case, people have never stopped looking for an intruder.

One poster on another forum put it so well when he said that by putting a little bit of everything in the mix, it successfully threw everyone off enough to make it almost impossible to charge anyone. This has worked like a charm for the alleged intruder as it was certainly convoluted enough that no arrest has ever taken place.

Still I believe Patsy would have broken down and confessed if she had been questioned (separately from John) right away. With all that turmoil in her psyche still vivid, she would have not have stood up to the pressure of tough questioning.

 

[BBB167893]

"Still I believe Patsy would have broken down and confessed if she had been questioned (separately from John) right away. With all that turmoil in her psyche still vivid, she would have not have stood up to the pressure of tough questioning."

Better yet: charge them with lesser stuff, let them stew in a holding cell for a while, then see which one of them wants the "get-out-of-jail-free" card.

 

[LinasK]

Wiping her down might have been Patsy's act of cleaning her up/guilt/ loving act(to restore a small measure of dignity) as was wrappping her in a blanket.


Or it could be to remove evidence...

 

[Eagle1]

Last night a young African-American's grandmother who lived alone was killed, and he looked like the guilty party but the DNA wasn't his. People had noticed he'd been acting very strange since the grandmother's death. I forget if that was ever explained. Maybe someone else saw the program.

"Dale Hinman" figured that he'd probably brought a pal with him visiting at some point, who noticed the jewelry the old lady always wore as her only valuables. The pal was caught for something else if I remember details correctly, and his DNA checked, perfect match.

He'd set the grandmother in a chair as if she was watching TV, but set two small fires in two different closets. The only thing missing was not her cash or credit card, just the jewelry. So intruders do SOME staging sometimes. I know someone can think of much better examples than this one. Not saying I'm off the fence or will ever pick one theory, just commenting in general.

The grandmother had been sexually assaulted, but posed with the TV on, sitting in a chair, clothed. At first it was thought she'd died of smoke inhalation or a heart attack if I remember right. They had several cases.

 

[narlacat]

If I might get off-subject for a moment:

Today is JB's birthday. She would have been sweet sixteen.

Actually, it's not THAT hard to prove staging. Take the classic example: a person is shot and the killer tries to put the gun in their hand to make it look like suicide. Turns out the victim was left-handed...get it?

Poor JonBenét.
No more birthdays on Earth for you

 

[Britt]

Wiping her down might have been Patsy's act of cleaning her up/guilt/ loving act(to restore a small measure of dignity)...

I don't think it was for any loving reason. I think Patsy was simply trying to erase a horrible oops moment, to clean up the mess she'd made, and put things back the way they were, complete with identical undies, so no one would know what she'd done.

...as was wrappping her in a blanket.

About that blanket. I don't think it was Patsy who wrapped her in the blanket. I think it was John... John, who let it slip to Smit in the police interview: I ran upstairs and got a blanket off one of the chairs..... Probably up in the tv room. I just ran up these stairs and went back down and put the blanket over her. (The TV room is on the first floor... downstairs would be the basement.)

Personally, I think he did this during his disappearance from Arndt et al that morning of the 26th, after he found where Patsy had hidden JonBenét's body.

Rashomon's post on the "JonBenet's hands were loosely bound" thread is very interesting:

It seems that the artist rendition got it wrong (where JB is drawn with her hands stretched out above her head), for there exists a crime scene photo where JB's (who is lying on her side) right arm is bent at the elbow and she looks as if she is sleeping. Since she was already in rigor mortis when the picture was taken, this is how John Ramsey must have found her.
And I believe when Dr. Meyer later saw JB's dead body lying on her back on the autopsy table, her arms (still in rigor mortis) bent at the elbows stuck up in the air and that was what he meant by 'above' her head.

I've seen the crime photo. Rashomon is right.

Putting this together with John's blanket revelation... I think Patsy had hidden JB behind something in the wine cellar, and her body was in a position where she was on her back but her elbows were supported, as opposed to lying flat on the floor.

As many of us speculate, Fleet White didn't see her because she was hidden.

Later that a.m., John found her, fetched the blanket from upstairs, wrapped her in it and moved her to a more visible location in the little room.

JSB

 

[BBB167893]

"Last night a young African-American's grandmother who lived alone was killed, and he looked like the guilty party but the DNA wasn't his. People had noticed he'd been acting very strange since the grandmother's death. I forget if that was ever explained. Maybe someone else saw the program.

"Dale Hinman" figured that he'd probably brought a pal with him visiting at some point, who noticed the jewelry the old lady always wore as her only valuables. The pal was caught for something else if I remember details correctly, and his DNA checked, perfect match."

Eagle1, are you going somewhere with this? Because I can think of a case where a child was killed, the DNA didn't match the man who police thought killed her, and he was still convicted. I'll tell you folks that story if you're interested.

I agree with the notion that Patsy did it to get rid of evidence.

 

[Eagle1]

Eagle1, are you going somewhere with this? Because I can think of a case where a child was killed, the DNA didn't match the man who police thought killed her, and he was still convicted. I'll tell you folks that story if you're interested.

Sounds interesting.

And I just wanted to illustrate from my neutral position that intruders do sometimes do staging, and in that case re-dressing, evidently. "Just the facts" for whatever they're worth.

 

[UKGuy]

Sounds interesting.

And I just wanted to illustrate from my neutral position that intruders do sometimes do staging, and in that case re-dressing, evidently. "Just the facts" for whatever they're worth.

Eagle1,

Sounds like this was a premeditated crime. Thanks for posting the details since it emphasises why staging is an important feature to be aware of in crime cases.

.

 

[Cypros]

About that blanket. I don't think it was Patsy who wrapped her in the blanket. I think it was John... John, who let it slip to Smit in the police interview: I ran upstairs and got a blanket off one of the chairs..... Probably up in the tv room. I just ran up these stairs and went back down and put the blanket over her. (The TV room is on the first floor... downstairs would be the basement.)

Personally, I think he did this during his disappearance from Arndt et al that morning of the 26th, after he found where Patsy had hidden JonBenét's body.

John's quote was discussed on another thread the other day. He made this statement in reference to the point in time just AFTER he found JB and brought her body up from the basement and laid her on the living room floor. He then "ran upstairs and got a blanket off one of the chairs..... Probably up in the tv room." and then returned with the blanket to cover her. There was no slip in his making this statement and it, unfortunately, does not provide any clues about the murder.

 

[Britt]

But Cypros, the TV room was on the same floor as the living room. So what stairs did he run up to get the blanket and back down to cover JB with it?

 

[Cypros]

But Cypros, the TV room was on the same floor as the living room. So what stairs did he run up to get the blanket and back down to cover JB with it?

Which room on the first floor are you calling the TV room?

The whole thing is confused. In the transcripts, it seems that the Study, located at the back of the ground floor, is referred to as the "TV Room" and thus does not fit with JR saying that he went upstair from the living room to get the blanket. However, there is a "Children's Room" on the 2nd floor that JR may have considered the "TV Room" if it had a TV in it. Nonetheless, in PMPT, it is said that JR grabbed a blanket off of a chair in the living room and covered JB, and there are other descriptions of covering her by other people and with other items so it is unclear what exactly happened.

Here is the quote from the transcripts:

1 you bring her from the basement, and did you meet

2 anybody up on the first floor?

3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember anybody. I

4 just remember bringing her in and laying her -- I

5 mean there were people in the dining and living

6 room. But I remember Linda Arndt kneeling down

7 beside her. I was there and Linda said she's dead.

8 And I didn't want -- Patsy hadn't come in the --

9 LOU SMIT: When was Patsy --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: But I didn't know at the time,

11 but later, she was back in the study with Barbara

12 Fernie and I don't know who else. My emotion was

13 that I had found her, which was good. But she was

14 dead, which was horrible. But it was almost better

15 than not knowing. Cause not knowing where your

16 child is the most horrible feeling, I think, a

17 parent can experience. And that was (INAUDIBLE)

18 what had been going through our mind all that

19 morning.

20 So when I first found her I was like,

21 Thank God, I found her.̃ I didn't want Patsy to

22 see her that way, and I ran upstairs and got a

23 blanket off one of the chairs, I think, it's got

24 a little shape like.

25 LOU SMIT: Upstairs?

0169

1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably up in the TV room.

2 I just ran up these stairs and went back down and

3 put the blanket over her.

 

[Britt]

Which room on the first floor are you calling the TV room?

The study. It is discussed in several places in the police interviews, but here's the excerpt I posted previously:

John Ramsey: ...The normal doors that we used to go in and out of the house were the garage door, the door to the garage and the door out in the hallway, the back hallway, and I would usually look to see if that door is locked, because that was the typical one the kids went in and out of.

Tom Trujillo: The back one out by the study area?

JR: Right, TV room.

JonBenet - The Police Files, p. 110 (1997 police interviews)

 

[Eagle1]

Sounds like this was a premeditated crime.
.

Yep, I have to agree, UKGuy, it does sound pre-meditated.

 

[Eagle1]

Another thing we all seem to keep forgetting, don't know if it's terribly important, but didn't the R family go to Pasta Jay's to eat before going to the Whites' ?

I'm still neutral and this is a long shot, just throwing it into the mix, don't know the motive for Susannah Chase's killing, if she was having an argument with someone, but could the same killer have seen and disliked the R's there in that same neighborhood. Not saying I believe that, not even a theory.

Just raising the question could there have been someone we've never discussed, although it all does seem pre-meditated and wouldn't likely be anyone they just encountered for the first time that night.

There's no insanity plea such as saving JonBenet's soul, but if there was a cunning madman who perverts scriptures and claims human sacrifice was ever commanded, such a madman that he could make a parent temporarily mad too, that might explain the apparent pre-meditation and such meticulous staging. They, and possibly others, could have been "under the influence" of a madman, as with the "Manson family". Just a thought.

 

[BBB167893]

"Sounds interesting."

It is. It's also a sad commentary on how some people will believe innocence, no matter how well-proven guilt is. It's the case of Dennis Dechaine.

In 1988, a Maine woman came home and found her infant son alone and his babysitter, 12-yr-old Sarah Cherry gone. She called the cops. She also found an auto-repair receipt in her driveway with the name "Dennis Dechaine" on it. The cops searched the woods nearby and found him. He claimed to be fishing, but had NO TACKLE. (He was stupid, too.) They showed him the reciept. He denied it was his, then claimed he was being framed. He said he didn't own a truck like the one the reciept said, but the cops caught him trying to hide the keys under the seat of the cruiser. His lawyer told the cops that they were looking in the right place. They found his truck. It had rope in it. They found Cherry's body nearby. She'd been raped vaginally and anally, stabbed with a knife that Dechaine was known to carry on his keychain, and strangled with rope that matched the rope found in his truck. Finally, he confessed. He was given life in prison. Now, there's a movement to free him. Why? Because Cherry had DNA on her fingernails that wasn't from him! SO WHAT?! Like I've said for months about this case, the world is LOADED with human DNA. She could have gotten it from anywhere. DNA cannot exclude suspects except in rape cases, and even THEN, if there was only one rapist and the victim wasn't sexually active (Nifong, are you listening?). JB was not raped, not in the typical sense. No one can be eliminated by DNA in all other cases, only included.

"And I just wanted to illustrate from my neutral position that intruders do sometimes do staging, and in that case re-dressing, evidently. "Just the facts" for whatever they're worth."

No one denies that, Eagle1, but the staging in this case pointed to an intruder, and not very well. Why would an intruder stage it to LOOK like an intruder?! It's like that scene in the "Princess Bride:"

"A clever man would poison his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I can clearly not choose the wine before you. But you KNEW I was not a great fool, so I cannot choose the wine before me!"

"Yep, I have to agree, UKGuy, it does sound pre-meditated."

JB's murder or the Dechaine murder?

"he could make a parent temporarily mad too, that might explain the apparent pre-meditation and such meticulous staging."

How do you figure it was meticulous? The staging was so obvious that all of the CASKU guys spotted it immediately.

There was something else. The RST claims that Patsy's clothes would have been filthy if she'd done all this in the basement, but JB was lying there, supposedly fighting, and her clothes weren't dirty that I can find. That led me to think: was the blanket put on the floor BEFORE the staging started down there? It would answer a few things.

 

[UKGuy]

The RST claims that Patsy's clothes would have been filthy if she'd done all this in the basement, but JB was lying there, supposedly fighting, and her clothes weren't dirty that I can find. That led me to think: was the blanket put on the floor BEFORE the staging started down there? It would answer a few things.

SuperDave,

There are a few inferences that can be drawn from the fact that the blankets are in the wine-cellar at all.

Then there is the issue of fiber transfer.

Since the garrote was constructed outside the wine-cellar door? I would assume JonBenet would be lying on the blankets outside of the wine-cellar?

She would have been brought there wrapped in them to prevent transfer of forensic evidence.

If the Patsy's clothes should have been filthy then so should the blankets, but they were not, either were Patsy's clothes, which strengthens my view the blankets were meant to prevent the transfer of evidence.

Speculating, JonBenet may have been wrapped and lying in the boot or rear of a car, awaiting relocation, but then there was a change of plan.


.

 

[rashomon]

"A clever man would poison his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I can clearly not choose the wine before you. But you KNEW I was not a great fool, so I cannot choose the wine before me!"

Nothing in the JB case suggests that a 'clever, premeditating person' was involved. Quite the contrary: a frantic perp threw in several scenarios in the mix, hoping that at least one might stick.
And at least one scenario stuck, one must give the stager that: Lou Smit swallowed the intruder scenario hook, line and sinker.

 

[icedtea4me]

Another thing we all seem to keep forgetting, don't know if it's terribly important, but didn't the R family go to Pasta Jay's to eat before going to the Whites' ?

No, they dined at Pasta Jay's after attending the Dec 24 church service.

BTW, this is the second time I've answered this question.


-Tea

 

[BBB167893]

"If the Patsy's clothes should have been filthy then so should the blankets, but they were not, either were Patsy's clothes, which strengthens my view the blankets were meant to prevent the transfer of evidence."

I believe that was the point I was trying to make!