The Grand Jury & Trial

[Magdalyn]

Ok, I didn't see that new detail. Thanks. I guess plenty of jurors will be tempted to take that drive.

0:30 to 1:15 minutes, that's really not a long time though. He had just spend the morning with the kid and had strapped him in. I don't know. I don't buy it. He wasn't in a particulary hurry to get to work or anything.

I'm tempted to make that drive to time it, I know where it is....but the thought of driving from my little bubble in Cherokee County to that area of Cobb (metro ATL traffic-wise) makes me want to stab myself in the eye! :gaah:

 

[MsMarple]

Philip A. Holloway ‏@PhilHollowayEsq 13m13 minutes ago Marietta, GA
Philip A. Holloway Retweeted xx
Well I'm looking at the @HLNTV mobile studio set up outside the courthouse right this minute
https://twitter.com/PhilHollowayEsq

 

[Inthedetails]

If that's the case, then he allegedly 'forgot him' 30 seconds after he buckled him in, because if he'd 'remembered', he'd have turned to go toward daycare?

I don't think Ross forgot him on the drive, I think he forgot him while at work. I think he meant to leave Cooper in the car, but just for a minute or two while he made an appearance at work. He was late for work, again, and he wanted to "check in." I think he intended to return to the car and bring Cooper to daycare, but forgot.

His ex-wife claims she is the one who searched for hot-car deaths. I think she did this because Ross had used the car as a short-term babysitter in the past, and it scared his ex-wife. She wanted to prove to him how dangerous it was.

When she found out Ross didn't drop off Cooper, I think she knew what happened - he forgot him in the car.

My gut tells me he "forgot" Cooper, but because he had done this in the past, it was a neglectant habit of his. He put his son in danger. He took a terrible risk with his child's life and that is his responsibility.

I'm tempted to lean toward a deliberate act of murder because of his immature attitude toward marriage, but my stronger hunch is that he forgot Cooper in the car while he was in the office, not when he was in the car. He didn't intend to kill Cooper, but that's what happened from his taking a known risk. He remembered during the day, but it was too late. He knew he had a track record of leaving Cooper (my speculation), and he covered his actions with the phony discovery on the way to the movies.

JMOpinion.

 

[Magdalyn]

His ex-wife claims she is the one who searched for hot-car deaths. I think she did this because Ross had used the car as a short-term babysitter in the past, and it scared his ex-wife. She wanted to prove to him how dangerous it was.

Respectfully snipped for focus.

I believe they both searched/were well informed on hot car deaths.

Harris was interviewed shortly after his son was pronounced dead. "During the interview, Harris stated that leaving his son in a hot car was his biggest fear. According to Harris, he recently viewed a television show concerning child deaths in cars. He also stated that he researched the issue of deaths in cars on the Internet."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/04/dad-hot-car-death/12215151/

Your theory is very interesting. Might be on to something. We'll have to see what all comes out at trial!

 

[DexterMorgan]

I don't get the child cruelty charge?

Did he smack his son and put him on time out in the hot car while forgetting about him?

So where is this child cruelty coming from? He took his kid to breakfast and there are no witness nor evidence that supports he was being cruel to Cooper.

So please help me understand the cruelty charge and how is this charge supported with factual evidence that he was being mean to Cooper?

THANKS in advance.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Respectfully snipped for focus.

I believe they both searched/were well informed on hot car deaths.



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/04/dad-hot-car-death/12215151/

Your theory is very interesting. Might be on to something. We'll have to see what all comes out at trial!

People research gun safety and accidental gun deaths all of the time. But there have been plenty of cases where a parent isn't charged when a sibling or friend accidentally kills the other with the parents gun.

Just saying.

 

[MsArk]

I don't get the child cruelty charge?

Did he smack his son and put him on time out in the hot car while forgetting about him?

So where is this child cruelty coming from? He took his kid to breakfast and there are no witness nor evidence that supports he was being cruel to Cooper.

So please help me understand the cruelty charge and how is this charge supported with factual evidence that he was being mean to Cooper?

THANKS in advance.

The child cruelty charge comes in due to the manner in which Cooper died. The child literally baked to death. I can't even think about the torture that baby went through before he died.

 

[TeaTime]

Child cruelty is leaving him strapped in the car to die from the heat.

 

[MsMarple]

Gearing up for the trial!
[video=twitter;722509165516701696]https://twitter.com/PhilHollowayEsq/status/722509165516701696[/video]
Philip A. Holloway ‎@PhilHollowayEsq
My view from the @CNN, @HLNTV live truck for the #JustinRossHarris #hotcardeath case ⚖⚖

 

[DexterMorgan]

The child cruelty charge comes in due to the manner in which Cooper died. The child literally baked to death. I can't even think about the torture that baby went through before he died.

That is considered torture and not cruelty.

And felony murder is if he was intentionally doing another crime at the same time frame while causing the death of his child.

But the added cruelty charge to help cement a felony murder theory seems like the D.A is just throwing stuff at the wall.

I rather they just went for negligent homicide due to him being negligent while focusing on his sexting.

 

[Magdalyn]

People research gun safety and accidental gun deaths all of the time. But there have been plenty of cases where a parent isn't charged when a sibling or friend accidentally kills the other with the parents gun.

Just saying.

I'm simply stating he can't claim he was unaware of the risk. He researched it. It was his biggest fear.

Parents can be charged in cases where they knowing left a loaded gun out and accessible to a child, and the child dies.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/03/21/parents-charged-boys-shooting-death/6720001/

http://www.chattanoogan.com/2016/3/7/319573/Mother-Of-3-Year-Old-Apison-Boy-Who.aspx

http://www.wesh.com/news/man-charged-in-girls-accidental-shooting-death-bonds-out-of-jail/38331430

 

[Inthedetails]

That is considered torture and not cruelty.

And felony murder is if he was intentionally doing another crime at the same time frame while causing the death of his child.

But the added cruelty charge to help cement a felony murder theory seems like the D.A is just throwing stuff at the wall.

I rather they just went for negligent homicide due to him being negligent while focusing on his sexting.

BBM.

Me too. I think they could get a conviction for that charge.

I really am curious how the evidence is going to be laid out. I think the prosecutors have to be very good at telling their story.

 

[popsicle]

I don't think Ross forgot him on the drive, I think he forgot him while at work. I think he meant to leave Cooper in the car, but just for a minute or two while he made an appearance at work. He was late for work, again, and he wanted to "check in." I think he intended to return to the car and bring Cooper to daycare, but forgot.

His ex-wife claims she is the one who searched for hot-car deaths. I think she did this because Ross had used the car as a short-term babysitter in the past, and it scared his ex-wife. She wanted to prove to him how dangerous it was.

When she found out Ross didn't drop off Cooper, I think she knew what happened - he forgot him in the car.

My gut tells me he "forgot" Cooper, but because he had done this in the past, it was a neglectant habit of his. He put his son in danger. He took a terrible risk with his child's life and that is his responsibility.

I'm tempted to lean toward a deliberate act of murder because of his immature attitude toward marriage, but my stronger hunch is that he forgot Cooper in the car while he was in the office, not when he was in the car. He didn't intend to kill Cooper, but that's what happened from his taking a known risk. He remembered during the day, but it was too late. He knew he had a track record of leaving Cooper (my speculation), and he covered his actions with the phony discovery on the way to the movies.

JMOpinion.

My two problems with this are 1) he also researched and looked at pics of dead ppl (murder and suicide) 2) his lack of any reaction and emotion. jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

My two problems with this are 1) he also researched and looked at pics of dead ppl (murder and suicide) 2) his lack of any reaction and emotion. jmo

1) weird but within the realm of normal curiosity (and might explain why he later said he was afraid to see what Cooper looked like. He knew it would be bad.) We've all researched strange thing from time to time that don't mean anything. I think the search for hot-car death was significant as I think it was Leah showing Ross how dangerous it was, but I don't think the search for death images was anything but him looking at something gory and gross. JMO.

2) he wasn't shocked at that point. He already figured out that he forgot Cooper and his reaction in the parking lot was part of the phony discovery.

jmo

 

[jennapuppy]

My two problems with this are 1) he also researched and looked at pics of dead ppl (murder and suicide) 2) his lack of any reaction and emotion. jmo

I didn't realize that. I shudder to think what else he may have been planning. JMO

 

[GA_Peach]

"criminal negligence is an act or failure to act which demonstrates a willful, wanton, or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby."

I would say since

A) We know he knows the risks of leaving a child in a hot car as he and his wife admitted to viewing information on the internet on this very thing, Ross stating leaving his son in the car was his biggest fear, he watched a tv show about it.

B)Considering he is in charge of his son's safety, and safe arrival at daycare, and according to him, leaving his son in a hot car was 'his biggest fear', combined with a very short duration of drive time between buckling his son in after breakfast at Chik-fil-a and arriving at work, and the sexting happening at the same time he's to be focusing on getting his son to daycare...

doesn't look like a stretch to prove beyond reasonable doubt a wanton or reckless disregard for the safety of others who might reasonably be expected to be injured thereby


Further, I feel that if his defense is going to go 'sex addiction' angle, that would not soften the impact on me as to his culpability to negligence/second degree child cruelty/felony murder. If Ross were busy enjoying his alcohol addiction, or his meth addiction, while responsible for driving an automobile to breakfast and to work with his child in his care, and his child ended up dead because he 'forgot he was in the car'... none of that would add up to 'it could happen to anyone' to me. Those circumstances happened as they did due to his criminal negligence (if I didn't believe it was premediated.)

Another test I like to do if I wonder should a parent be held criminally responsible in a child's death: If an unrelated to the child, paid babysitter made the same actions the parent did, would they be considered criminally negligent? If Ross's attorneys go the 'so distracted by his sex addiction' route? Exchange Ross for the person who drives the van at the daycare. Keep the sex addiction the same. Jane Doe the daycare van driver was in the throes of her sex addiction/sexting/texting with one of her 6 paramours while she was responsible for Cooper's transportation. A few minutes after buckling Cooper into the van, Jane forgot about him, forgot to get him out of the van, and went into work to continue sexting...exchanging nude images... Her job that morning? To get Cooper safely to the daycare. The one thing she didn't manage to do amidst her 'sex addiction'? Get Cooper safely to daycare. Result. Death of the child in her care.

I couldn't have said this any better myself.

Good points, all.

IMO what's troublesome (more generally than this case) is giving the State the power to charge and potentially convict for murder in a situation like this, even if there was no intent to kill and the tragedy was genuinely an accident.

A felony charge for second-degree child cruelty in an accidental case seems pretty harsh, a murder charge IMO goes too far. jmo.

Is simply forgetting criminal negligence? I am not sure that a jury would decide that it is. However, purposely engaging in an activity that distracts a caregiver could definitely be considered negligence. He was so distracted by whatever he was doing that he left his child to die in a hot car. IMO forgetting and being distracted to the point that you are unable to fulfill your job as primary caretaker are two completely different scenarios. I am not sure where JRH's activities fit into this, but the more that I reflect on this case, the more that I am believe he is negligent as opposed to forgetful.

Really was referring not to this case, but in general, given the awful reality that while thankfully uncommon, parents DO accidentally cause the death of their children by leaving them unattended in hot cars.

When truly an accident, IMO the responsible parent has already suffered the most horrible consequences and punishment imaginable, and I can't understand what interest of the State is served in bringing felony charges.

I agree. If a parent truly forgets a child in a hot car, there is no punishment that could be worse than the loss of that parent's child. Shortly after Cooper died, I ws researching hot car deaths. I came across a blog post from a mother who had left her child in a hot car, and he died. She was recounting the events of the day her child child. I was literally sobbing by the end of the post. Her pain and suffering was so real.

It was not 30 seconds. It wasn't very long- between 1.15 and 2 minutes, but it was not 30 seconds. 30 seconds is impossible to believe. 1-2 minutes is an extremely short time, but plausible, at least in theory.

The CFA is situated up on a hill. To leave that CFA and turn toward the Home Depot, you have to leave down a long "driveway" and then drive through the Publix parking lot. It may have been up to 2 minutes from strapping in Cooper and approaching the traffic light where JRH had to decide which way to go. However, as soon as JRH pulled out of the Publix parking lot, he has to immediately decide in which lane he needs to be. It is less than 30 seconds from turning on the main road until he reaches the light.

I don't get the child cruelty charge?

Did he smack his son and put him on time out in the hot car while forgetting about him?

So where is this child cruelty coming from? He took his kid to breakfast and there are no witness nor evidence that supports he was being cruel to Cooper.

So please help me understand the cruelty charge and how is this charge supported with factual evidence that he was being mean to Cooper?

THANKS in advance.

Here is the second-degree child cruelty charge in Georgia:

"Any person commits the offense of cruelty to children in the second degree when such person with criminal negligence causes a child under the age of 18 cruel or excessive physical or mental pain."

He obviously caused Cooper cruel and excessive physical pain. However, it all comes down to criminal negligence.

 

[Hope4More]

We see it differently. He didn't die because she had 7 children instead of 6. (While it was against the law for a daycare provider, there are parents who have twice that many children, and none 'accidentally' end up dead.) He died because she left him outside, unattended, in an unsafe environment. Was receiving and making calls while he was strangling.

Ross left his kid inside a car, unattended, in an unsafe environment. The tragedy was foreseeable. Hot car deaths were his biggest fear. But he was super busy with his super important sexting.

If my child's daycare provider left my child alone on the playground, and he strangled to death as a result, 10 years would not be long enough. But that's just me...

It will be up to a jury to decide if it's a clear example, I suppose! :fence:

The forseeable is not the same, IMO. The daycare tragedy was forseeable by the daycare worker, who knowingly broke the law by having too many kids, and by choosing to leave children unattended outside, which is by definition unsafe, IMO, even assuming what was out there met daycare code.
Those are direct, active, knowing choices by someone being paid to keep those kids safe, and who, hopefully, had to have a license and who had to inform herself about basic safety measures, etc. to obtain that license.

Leaving aside any opinion on this defendant's guilt or innocence. It seems unclear what videos he actually watched. I've read they were about the effect of car heat on inanimate objects, and/or pets, and/or children. No matter which is accurate, he had to have known bad things happen to anything left in a hot car, and that pets and people are at mortal risk in that situation.

If he chose to leave Cooper in the car unattended, then the outcome was forseeable by HIM. Directly and unequivocally. If he genuinely had no idea Cooper was in the car, then he had no way of forseeing what would happen.

In any case, it sounds like the child cruelty laws in Georgia are rather indifferent to whether or not the defendant could have forseen what might or would happen.

 

[Inthedetails]

The forseeable is not the same, IMO. The daycare tragedy was forseeable by the daycare worker, who knowingly broke the law by having too many kids, and by choosing to leave children unattended outside, which is by definition unsafe, IMO, even assuming what was out there met daycare code.
Those are direct, active, knowing choices by someone being paid to keep those kids safe, and who, hopefully, had to have a license and who had to inform herself about basic safety measures, etc. to obtain that license.

Leaving aside any opinion on this defendant's guilt or innocence. It seems unclear what videos he actually watched. I've read they were about the effect of car heat on inanimate objects, and/or pets, and/or children. No matter which is accurate, he had to have known bad things happen to anything left in a hot car, and that pets and people are at mortal risk in that situation.

If he chose to leave Cooper in the car unattended, then the outcome was forseeable by HIM. Directly and unequivocally. If he genuinely had no idea Cooper was in the car, then he had no way of forseeing what would happen.

In any case, it sounds like the child cruelty laws in Georgia are rather indifferent to whether or not the defendant could have forseen what might or would happen.

BBM

There is a difference between "forgetting" and "having no idea" Cooper was in the car.

He knew Cooper was in the car. He claims he forgot.

He doesn't claim that he had no idea Cooper was in the car. It's not as if someone else put the child there and didn't tell Ross.

You can't forget something you didn't know in the first place. He knew.

JMO

 

[MsMarple]

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 4m4 minutes ago
Juror 34, echoing all but 2 jurors interviewed today: "Hard to think this was an accident" #RossHarris #hotcardeath

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 2m2 minutes ago
Juror 34, sales manager, says he did some research on #RossHarris case AFTER filling out juror questionnaire #hotcardeath

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 50m50 minutes ago
Juror 33: Needs evidence that #RossHarris is innocent from defense #hotcardeath

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 1h1 hour ago
Juror 33, bartender, overhearing ppl discuss #hotcardeath case, none have been favorable to #RossHarris

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 1h1 hour ago
Juror 33, a bartender, heard customers discussing #RossHarris case #hotcardeath

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 2h2 hours ago
Juror 32: "You can't leave a kid in the car. It's unheard of" #RossHarris #hotcardeath

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 2h2 hours ago
Juror 32 "angry" she may have to pay for someone else's "bad choices" if picked to serve on #RossHarris jury #hotcardeath

Christian Boone ‏@ReporterJCB 2h2 hours ago
Juror 32 breaks down, says she'll lose a lot of her clients if picked to sit on #RossHarris jury #hotcardeath

 

[Hope4More]

I couldn't have said this any better myself.



Is simply forgetting criminal negligence? I am not sure that a jury would decide that it is. However, purposely engaging in an activity that distracts a caregiver could definitely be considered negligence. He was so distracted by whatever he was doing that he left his child to die in a hot car. IMO forgetting and being distracted to the point that you are unable to fulfill your job as primary caretaker are two completely different scenarios. I am not sure where JRH's activities fit into this, but the more that I reflect on this case, the more that I am believe he is negligent as opposed to forgetful.



I agree. If a parent truly forgets a child in a hot car, there is no punishment that could be worse than the loss of that parent's child. Shortly after Cooper died, I ws researching hot car deaths. I came across a blog post from a mother who had left her child in a hot car, and he died. She was recounting the events of the day her child child. I was literally sobbing by the end of the post. Her pain and suffering was so real.



The CFA is situated up on a hill. To leave that CFA and turn toward the Home Depot, you have to leave down a long "driveway" and then drive through the Publix parking lot. It may have been up to 2 minutes from strapping in Cooper and approaching the traffic light where JRH had to decide which way to go. However, as soon as JRH pulled out of the Publix parking lot, he has to immediately decide in which lane he needs to be. It is less than 30 seconds from turning on the main road until he reaches the light.



Here is the second-degree child cruelty charge in Georgia:

"Any person commits the offense of cruelty to children in the second degree when such person with criminal negligence causes a child under the age of 18 cruel or excessive physical or mental pain."

He obviously caused Cooper cruel and excessive physical pain. However, it all comes down to criminal negligence.

The immediate decision about lane choice is definitely interesting. Playing devil's advocate, though- he may have needed to get into a turn lane immediately, but that doesn't mean he was able to if there was a lot of traffic and/or unyielding drivers.

That said, if he was trying to get into a turn lane to go to the daycare and had to fight traffic, it's very unbelievable all the sudden mid-process he forgot he was headed that way.

But....are you sure that immediate choice was necessarily the only one available to him? Didn't I read that he would have had to make a U turn, do a clover loop? Or is that the turn you mean?