The Grand Jury & Trial

[Magdalyn]

In one of the text conversations with another woman, Stoddard said, the woman asked Harris, "Do you even have a conscience?" Harris' reply was "Nope,'' the detective testified.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/justin_ross_harris_hearing_bri.html

When people tell you who they are, believe them.

 

[Hope4More]

RBBM

There seems to be a conflict about the times:

After leaving the restaurant at 9:19 a.m., Stoddard said Ross Harris strapped Cooper into his rear-facing car seat. Because of the dimensions of the Hyundai Tuscson, a small SUV, the top of the car seat was only about six inches from Ross Harris' head, and protruded in between the two front seats, the detective said.

Ross Harris arrived at work about 9:25 a.m. Throughout the day, he talked on an inner-office chat with several friends, making plans for lunch and a 5 p.m. movie -- 22nd Jump Street. He went to lunch with friends at Publix, and then made a stop at Home Depot to buy light bulbs.

So, according to the July 3 preliminary hearing Ross left the restaurant at 9:19 and arrived at work about 9:25.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/justin_ross_harris_hearing_bri.html
http://legacy.11alive.com/story/new...cause-bond-hearing-in-hot-car-death/12143057/

I'm on my phone today and can't link, but the timeline I quoted was from articles in the Atlantic Constitutional Journal (as reputable as it gets) published online within the past 24 hours.

 

[Inthedetails]

According to the ACJ::



8:55. Left CF. (Approx. time)
8:55:19. Texted he missed time to himself and going out with friends.
9AM. Arrived HD parking lot/work
9:12. Woman he's texting with says she feels unappreciated and drained by her 2 young children, but that she doesn't resent her kids, she resents "him." Husband.
9:15:15. He says his wife gets upset when he goes out with friends.
9:15:33. I love my son, but we need escapes...
9:18:09. She says- maybe that's our issue too..I need a break from "love."
9:24:15. He says- agreed.
9:24:23. Him: Hug
9:24:28. Him: We both need that.


So:

1. he wasn't texting en route, UNLESS the 8:55:19 text was sent then.

2. The woman he was texting with wasn't talking about being child free, and explicited said she didn't resent her children.

3. His complaint, stated twice, was about his wife not being OK with him spending time out, not anything about Cooper.

4. He says he loves his son, not just that he doesn't resent him or the like.

5. This conversation largely took place after he left Cooper in the car. He texted after the fact, if intentional? And didn't delete these "incriminating" texts?

What I hear in the texts are 2 married parents, both of whom are feeling resentful about their SPOUSES, not their kids.

Right, but the only way Ross was going to be spouse-free was to be child-free first.

FWIW, I go back and forth between his motives. Sometime I think he left Cooper there on purpose. Other times I think he left Cooper in the car to check into work sort of "on time" with the intention to return to the car to bring Cooper to daycare....but he forgot to go back to the car until it was too late. Perhaps he remembered at lunchtime when he dropped off the lightbulbs...and then he made the plan to "discover" Cooper on the way to the movies.

jmo.

 

[Hope4More]

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/justin_ross_harris_hearing_bri.html

When people tell you who they are, believe them.

Problem with Stoddard is he apparently hasn't been entirely accurate/straight forward with the details, shall we say, not even on the stand for the probable cause hearing.

I put no particular weight into that quote because I don't have any information about context.

(IMO it would be like believing Travis Alexander was a sociopath just because he called himself that once in a text, in a not entirely disimilar context. Didn't make it true or accurate, he just used a word.

 

[Hope4More]

Right, but the only way Ross was going to be spouse-free was to be child-free first.

FWIW, I go back and forth between his motives. Sometime I think he left Cooper there on purpose. Other times I think he left Cooper in the car to check into work sort of "on time" with the intention to return to the car to bring Cooper to daycare....but he forgot to go back to the car until it was too late. Perhaps he remembered at lunchtime when he dropped off the lightbulbs...and then he made the plan to "discover" Cooper on the way to the movies.

jmo.

Eh?? He could be spouse free with a divorce.

 

[Inthedetails]

Eh?? He could be spouse free with a divorce.

Of course! If only he had gone that route!

But that is not what I meant. In his world, I don't think he would divorce his wife. For one thing, I think he's too conservative to do that (yes, I know the irony of not wanting to commit the sin of divorce but go ahead and murder instead). Also, and this might be the bigger reason, he's too lazy and passive to take the steps to divorce and to face the judgement of others regarding leaving a wife and child.

The way he killed Cooper - if it was murder - was lazy and passive. He didn't have to do anything except "forget."

Just my opinion.

 

[Hope4More]

Of course! If only he had gone that route!

But that is not what I meant. In his world, I don't think he would divorce his wife. For one thing, I think he's too conservative to do that (yes, I know the irony of not wanting to commit the sin of divorce but go ahead and murder instead). Also, and this might be the bigger reason, he's too lazy and passive to take the steps to divorce and to face the judgement of others regarding leaving a wife and child.

The way he killed Cooper - if it was murder - was lazy and passive. He didn't have to do anything except "forget."

Just my opinion.

On what evidence do you base your opinion he was "lazy and passive?"

 

[Magdalyn]

I can't equate his sexting with minors with being capable of killing his own child, much less in the way Cooper died.

As for whether or not he is a sociopath. I haven't read anything that suggests he is, and so don't make that leap. Casey Anthony rejected Caylee from the time she was born, and did everything she could all along to escape parenting her. Ross seems to have wanted to spend time with his son and, if friends' accounts are accurate, spoke of him constantly, chose where to live based on his son's needs, etc. That doesn't say sociopath to me.

And what also doesn't say sociopath is his wife's continuing belief that her husband is innocent. She's divorced from him now and has no reason, if she ever did, to support him.

Unless you believe she too is a sociopath, which IMO is close to what she'd have to be to NOT hold her ex responsible, if she had the slightest doubt whatsoever that he was capable of killing their son.

The one and only piece of "evidence" that gives me pause in that regard is his (subjective) seeming lack of emotion when being questioned, before he was charged.

I'm almost positive that had that been me, responsible for the death of my own child (can barely even type those words), I wouldn't have been capable of coherency at all, and when I finally was, (sorry if this offends anyone), I'd have to put on suicide watch forever, because I quite literally wouldn't be able to live with the guilt and anguish of what I'd done, even accidentally.

Even that piece is subjective, as in, maybe he was in total shock or some such......

FWIW...I honestly don't have a solid opinion guilty or not because IMO too many facts are unknown. If anything, so far I lean towards finding grounds for reasonable doubt, whatever the reality is/was.

I don't equate sexting with minors of being capable of killing. But I think for someone who has no conscience (which he's stated he has none), neither adultery, nor sexual predatory behavior, nor allowing his son to die a protracted, miserable death would cause his conscience a twinge. I'm just saying, if he has no conscience, none of these things would be any more difficult to do than the other.

I don't know that he is antisocial/sociopathic, but I would not be shocked to hear that he is. I do know that when it comes to these cases, I take early friends and family's accounts of someone being a person who 'couldn't do this", "loved ____ very much"....well, I've seen that tune change as more info comes out, the trial begins, OTHER friends and family's interviews/perspectives come to light. And if he's antisocial/has a personality disorder, he may have been very good at appearing doting when he was in the presence of others.

I'm not going to speak to my thoughts on Lena since she's not a suspect, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah... But I will say, there are all sorts of weird power dynamics I've seen between spouses in these murder cases and especially so when one or both of the couple has an extreme personality disorder, or is controlling, etc. There could be any number of reasons why she proclaims his innocence the least of which is that she believes it. Maybe she believes it like Cindy Anthony believes Casey didn't kill Caylee.

 

[Inthedetails]

On what evidence do you base your opinion he was "lazy and passive?"

Sorry...I'm going to be lazy and not respond directly to this. I've been active on this case from the start and have discussed this at length with the group of WSers on the various threads for the case. It's all there to review at your leisure, if you're interested.

This guy is lazy, imo, and lacks maturity and ambition. (Perhaps you can provide evidence to the contrary.)

 

[Magdalyn]

Eh?? He could be spouse free with a divorce.

To be fair, so could lots of people who chose to kill their spouse instead. Scott Peterson for one...

 

[MsMarple]

I'm on my phone today and can't link, but the timeline I quoted was from articles in the Atlantic Constitutional Journal (as reputable as it gets) published online within the past 24 hours.

But it's confusing then because the recent motion asking that jurors be allowed to travel to the various scenes also states that Ross got to work at about 9:25.

Harris claimed he forgot to take Cooper to daycare that morning, but instead went from the restaurant straight to work, investigators said. Cooper was locked in the car from approximately 9:25 a.m. until approximately 4:15 p.m., according to the motion. Harris claimed he was on his way to meet friends at a movie theater when he discovered his lifeless son in the backseat. He said he pulled over in the parking lot of the Akers Mill shopping center to try to render aid to his son, according to the motion.

http://www.ksla.com/story/31703710/prosecutors-request-jury-field-trips-in-justin-ross-harris-trial

If you're referring to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution I couldn't find the link. The paper did release a timeline back in 2014 saying Ross left the restaurant at 9:19 and got to work about 9:25 so if a recent article is giving different times then maybe it's a typo.

ETA: I found this article from March 28, 2016:

June 18, 2014: Justin Ross Harris leaves his 22-month son Cooper in the back seat of his SUV as he goes to his job at the Home Depot corporate office on Cumberland Boulevard. Police say that Cooper, who was locked inside the car at about 9:30, probably died before noon.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local/timeline-justin-ross-harris-case/nqtLR/

I think it's important to know when and from where Ross was texting during that morning. Ironically, the defense could use that time to demonstrate Dr. Diamond's theory about a distraction helping to create a memory lapse - but how on earth do you get the jurors to look beyond the ick factor?

 

[Hope4More]

Sorry...I'm going to be lazy and not respond directly to this. I've been active on this case from the start and have discussed this at length with the group of WSers on the various threads for the case. It's all there to review at your leisure, if you're interested.

This guy is lazy, imo, and lacks maturity and ambition. (Perhaps you can provide evidence to the contrary.)

Meh. I totally understand not wanting to repeat what I've said way earlier in a case for those arriving later on. I have in fact read through a large chunk of the threads, though, and don't recall reading a debate about whether or not he was passive and lazy.

Even if I had, have to say IMO that's a pretty broad stroke depiction based on not a great deal of evidence. He went to school, got a degree, relocated for an internship, landed that job, worked, was married, was raising a son, including taking turns driving him to daycare. Subjective, but no, I don't call that lazy.

Passive? Eh, what does that mean, and how is it relevant? Rhetorical questions.

What I can believe is that he was/is immature, wasn't honest with his wife or faithful to their marriage, that he seemed to have problems with intimacy, with his wife at least, and that at least some part of him at least sometimes wanted to have the chance to go out with friends and perhaps feel like he did when he was single. On the surface, at least, none of that IMO is particularly remarkable.

 

[Magdalyn]

Problem with Stoddard is he apparently hasn't been entirely accurate/straight forward with the details, shall we say, not even on the stand for the probable cause hearing.

I put no particular weight into that quote because I don't have any information about context.

(IMO it would be like believing Travis Alexander was a sociopath just because he called himself that once in a text, in a not entirely disimilar context. Didn't make it true or accurate, he just used a word.

Well, all things being equal, if it had been Jodi who had been found dead, shot, stabbed and throat slashed, and he called himself a sociopath in a text, I might weigh his text a little differently!

It's good chatting with you! I have to run but just wanted to make a point of saying how nicely/rationally you discuss cases. I get a little too emotionally involved at times, so I appreciate it when fellow sleuthers are so calm, respectful, nice about 'agreeing to disagreeing'.

 

[Hope4More]

Mine were observant too, but they were Cooper's age in the early 2000's/ and the right height/weight to be sitting upright in forward facing seats at 22 months. Had a much better view and were not reclined, facing the back seat/straps at infant setting.

There's always risk with murder. I can't think of any murder case I've followed where the murderer had 100% assurance before doing it that it would all go off without a hitch or they wouldn't be caught in the act, interrupted, seen, etc. And if he has a serious personality disorder, the risk taking is part of the package.

As far as asking kids to 'pipe down' , I'm reminded of a time where we were driving to the beach for vacation when our kids were 2 and 4. My husband was expecting a phone interview for a big promotion while we were driving so we made sure I took that driving shift, and we told the kids "When Daddy's phone rings, we have to be VERY silent for the WHOLE phone call. Daddy will be talking to an important person for a new job."

They did it. They were silent for 45 minutes. Not a peep, whine, or poke at their sibling. And I think they got extra play time at McDonald's as a reward.

As you mentioned earlier, perhaps Cooper was used to his needs being ignored when with his father. Perhaps it would take a lot to make him bother to cry for attention. Just don't know what their dynamic is, or if Cooper was used to neglectful parenting from his dad.

You must be a good (and lucky) momma.

Having two of your own likely seems to mean, if you're a typical mom these days, you haven't just been around two, but have had hordes of kids over for playdates, have taken a carful of kids on trips too many times to count, have done mommy and me classes up the wazoo, etc. As in, have been around a whole bunch of kids in all kinds of circumstances.
(Forgive me if that assumption doesn't fit...it's true for where I live, and what I and all of my friends have done --and still do, just with older kids.)

If so you might agree there's no such thing as a generic "kid," and that even one's own child (children) are wonderfully unpredictable, and completely uncontrollable unless and until one actually parents well or instills fear.

 

[Hope4More]

But it's confusing then because the recent motion asking that jurors be allowed to travel to the various scenes also states that Ross got to work at about 9:25.

Harris claimed he forgot to take Cooper to daycare that morning, but instead went from the restaurant straight to work, investigators said. Cooper was locked in the car from approximately 9:25 a.m. until approximately 4:15 p.m., according to the motion. Harris claimed he was on his way to meet friends at a movie theater when he discovered his lifeless son in the backseat. He said he pulled over in the parking lot of the Akers Mill shopping center to try to render aid to his son, according to the motion.

http://www.ksla.com/story/31703710/prosecutors-request-jury-field-trips-in-justin-ross-harris-trial

If you're referring to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution I couldn't find the link. The paper did release a timeline back in 2014 saying Ross left the restaurant at 9:19 and got to work about 9:25 so if a recent article is giving different times then maybe it's a typo.

ETA: I found this article from March 28, 2016:

June 18, 2014: Justin Ross Harris leaves his 22-month son Cooper in the back seat of his SUV as he goes to his job at the Home Depot corporate office on Cumberland Boulevard. Police say that Cooper, who was locked inside the car at about 9:30, probably died before noon.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local/timeline-justin-ross-harris-case/nqtLR/

I think it's important to know when and from where Ross was texting during that morning. Ironically, the defense could use that time to demonstrate Dr. Diamond's theory about a distraction helping to create a memory lapse - but how on earth do you get the jurors to look beyond the ick factor?

Will get off phone, on computer, and try to find the link for what I read early this AM.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Didn't he go to the car at lunch to drop off light bulbs but conveniently not look in the back seat?

Didn't he conveniently search hot car deaths days prior?

That's like researching how long not to leave a child underwater. Wth.

 

[Hope4More]

But it's confusing then because the recent motion asking that jurors be allowed to travel to the various scenes also states that Ross got to work at about 9:25.

Harris claimed he forgot to take Cooper to daycare that morning, but instead went from the restaurant straight to work, investigators said. Cooper was locked in the car from approximately 9:25 a.m. until approximately 4:15 p.m., according to the motion. Harris claimed he was on his way to meet friends at a movie theater when he discovered his lifeless son in the backseat. He said he pulled over in the parking lot of the Akers Mill shopping center to try to render aid to his son, according to the motion.

http://www.ksla.com/story/31703710/prosecutors-request-jury-field-trips-in-justin-ross-harris-trial

If you're referring to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution I couldn't find the link. The paper did release a timeline back in 2014 saying Ross left the restaurant at 9:19 and got to work about 9:25 so if a recent article is giving different times then maybe it's a typo.

ETA: I found this article from March 28, 2016:

June 18, 2014: Justin Ross Harris leaves his 22-month son Cooper in the back seat of his SUV as he goes to his job at the Home Depot corporate office on Cumberland Boulevard. Police say that Cooper, who was locked inside the car at about 9:30, probably died before noon.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local/timeline-justin-ross-harris-case/nqtLR/

I think it's important to know when and from where Ross was texting during that morning. Ironically, the defense could use that time to demonstrate Dr. Diamond's theory about a distraction helping to create a memory lapse - but how on earth do you get the jurors to look beyond the ick factor?

www.wsbtv.com/news/Ross-Harris-trial/timeline-of-cooper-harris-death/217042537

(didn't cut paste, wrote it down, hope that works). If not, Google- "minute by minute Cooper Harris wsbtv."

 

[Hope4More]

But it's confusing then because the recent motion asking that jurors be allowed to travel to the various scenes also states that Ross got to work at about 9:25.

Harris claimed he forgot to take Cooper to daycare that morning, but instead went from the restaurant straight to work, investigators said. Cooper was locked in the car from approximately 9:25 a.m. until approximately 4:15 p.m., according to the motion. Harris claimed he was on his way to meet friends at a movie theater when he discovered his lifeless son in the backseat. He said he pulled over in the parking lot of the Akers Mill shopping center to try to render aid to his son, according to the motion.

http://www.ksla.com/story/31703710/prosecutors-request-jury-field-trips-in-justin-ross-harris-trial

If you're referring to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution I couldn't find the link. The paper did release a timeline back in 2014 saying Ross left the restaurant at 9:19 and got to work about 9:25 a recent article is giving different times then maybe it's a typo.

ETA: I found this article from March 28, 2016:

June 18, 2014: Justin Ross Harris leaves his 22-month son Cooper in the back seat of his SUV as he goes to his job at the Home Depot corporate office on Cumberland Boulevard. Police say that Cooper, who was locked inside the car at about 9:30, probably died before noon.

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local/timeline-justin-ross-harris-case/nqtLR/

I think it's important to know when and from where Ross was texting during that morning. Ironically, the defense could use that time to demonstrate Dr. Diamond's theory about a distraction helping to create a memory lapse - but how on earth do you get the jurors to look beyond the ick factor?

Given the judge ruled against severing the cases, I think the defense has no choice but to run with the distracted immoral but not murderous man line of defense.

IMO this shouldn't have been a DP case anyway, but not going for the DP probably is a good choice for the State in that it gives them far more leeway for the non-severance kind of legal maneuvering.

Again and always IMO, that severance decision alone would provide an appellate DT a pretty compelling issue for appeals.

IMO, the State's case for murder should be strong enough to stand on it's own. Bring in any possibly related texting, sure, but there is no reason to tell the jury any of the texting was with minors. Waay more prejudicial than probitive, unless --reaching here- the DT is going to argue Ross wanted not only to be child free, but to make a full return to his adolescent days.

 

[gngr~snap]

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local/7-keys-justin-ross-harris-trial/nq6B3/

Dropping this here in case I can't access it again

Looking for AJC article. I should have grabbed the paper at the store earlier dang it!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[tlcya]

Compiled with information from police, arrest warrants and witness statements (some times are approximate)

from the linked WSBTV timeline. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/Ross-Harris-trial/timeline-of-cooper-harris-death/217042537

Link to Websleuths timeline based on charging docs and media reports http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?249213-Timeline-Background-June-18th-and-follow-up

CourtChatter website has a great archive of documents file in this case, including arrest warrants, indictment, and motions by prosecution and defense. http://www.courtchatter.com/#!justin-ross-harris-trial-archive/cqbf

The timeline evolved from initial days of investigation due to the introduction/discovery of video evidence from the Chik-Fil-A and JRH's workplace that were collected by detectives in the days following Cooper's death. Time-stamps on those videos are what Detective Stoddard relied upon when testifying during the probably cause hearing.

Transcript of probable cause hearing/arraignment http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1407/03/wolf.02.html