The Incinerator

[Sillybilly]

I take it the third guy is still alive?

<snip>

Could be the first two test runs were in populated areas and at different times of the day, and it was decided to try a more rural area just as it was becoming dark.

ETA: Thanks for the info on the "third" Althea ... so that doesn't factor into my above proposed scenario, but the second one still does.

 

[Blomquist]

The third test drive never happened. The owner missed the call.

Thanks Alethea...

Kavanagh keeps attributing the calls to DM..... I feel this is purely assumption...because if DM was the killer he would not have been identifying himself on a burner phone to people he was about to rob and/or murder ......

And burner phones are in fake names.... so LE must be going on a few assumptions IMO

 

[Sillybilly]

Thanks Alethea...

Kavanagh keeps attributing the calls to DM..... I feel this is purely assumption...because if DM was the killer he would not have been identifying himself on a burner phone to people he was about to rob and/or murder ......

And burner phones are in fake names.... so LE must be going on a few assumptions IMO

Surely that burner phone made more than 3 phone calls in 3 months (otherwise it would not have been purchased in January if it's sole purpose was to arrange test drives in May). All LE had to do is look at all calls made from that phone and verify that any individual receiving a call would know DM and recognize his voice. Maybe he even made some calls to his mother .. we don't know.

Criminals do stupid things. Every one that has ever been apprehended obviously didn't plan out the perfect crime.

 

[Snoofo]

Thanks Alethea...

Kavanagh keeps attributing the calls to DM..... I feel this is purely assumption...because if DM was the killer he would not have been identifying himself on a burner phone to people he was about to rob and/or murder ......

And burner phones are in fake names.... so LE must be going on a few assumptions IMO

Actually Blomquist there are no true quotes from Kavanagh himself attributing the calls to DM. In fact I have been careful to note what Kavanagh has been saying himself and when its others doing the talking. I find Kavanagh to be more careful, doesnt seem to use too many lines that are coicindentally misleading and qick to dispell falsehoids even if they make the accused look worse. I believe him. Does anybody know when was the very last time we heard from Kavanagh?

 

[Blomquist]

Actually Blomquist there are no true quotes from Kavanagh himself attributing the calls to DM. In fact I have been careful to note what Kavanagh has been saying himself and when its others doing the talking. I find Kavanagh to be more careful, doesnt seem to use too many lines that are coicindentally misleading and qick to dispell falsehoids even if they make the accused look worse. I believe him. Does anybody know when was the very last time we heard from Kavanagh?

Thank you.. I did think it odd that LE would be putting out assumptions as facts...thanks again

 

[Blomquist]

Surely that burner phone made more than 3 phone calls in 3 months (otherwise it would not have been purchased in January if it's sole purpose was to arrange test drives in May). All LE had to do is look at all calls made from that phone and verify that any individual receiving a call would know DM and recognize his voice. Maybe he even made some calls to his mother .. we don't know.

I don't know why you think criminals don't do stupid things. Every one that has ever been apprehended obviously didn't plan out the perfect crime.

I base my opinions on facts as far as possible... I am allowed an opinion the same as everyone else is....

 

[Sillybilly]

Oops ... easy to do, but we're going way off track in this thread again.

 

[Sillybilly]

I base my opinions on facts as far as possible... I am allowed an opinion the same as everyone else is....

Yes you are ... I edited my post to depersonalize the comment.

 

[skatergirl]

Surely that burner phone made more than 3 phone calls in 3 months (otherwise it would not have been purchased in January if it's sole purpose was to arrange test drives in May). All LE had to do is look at all calls made from that phone and verify that any individual receiving a call would know DM and recognize his voice. Maybe he even made some calls to his mother .. we don't know.

Criminals don't do stupid things. Every one that has ever been apprehended obviously didn't plan out the perfect crime.

Maybe he even made calls to MS from it

Anyway, this thread is getting off topic again

 

[Coldpizza]

Maybe he even made calls to MS from it

Anyway, this thread is getting off topic again

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215186&page=2

 

[dizzy1]

Actually Blomquist there are no true quotes from Kavanagh himself attributing the calls to DM. In fact I have been careful to note what Kavanagh has been saying himself and when its others doing the talking. I find Kavanagh to be more careful, doesnt seem to use too many lines that are coicindentally misleading and qick to dispell falsehoids even if they make the accused look worse. I believe him. Does anybody know when was the very last time we heard from Kavanagh?

Hamilton police Staff Sgt. Matt Kavanagh told media that Millard had contacted a man from the Etobicoke area to take a test drive in a Dodge Ram 3500 diesel truck he was selling prior to Bosma going missing. That man went on a test drive with two men and told police they were acting suspiciously.

Kavanagh told CBC News Wednesday that the Etobicoke man and the Toronto man were interviewed by police. He said it's possible Millard may have contacted other truck owners.

http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2013/06/05/hamilton-bosma-third-test-drive.html

 

[Juballee]

I was looking for something else and came across this timeline that I don't remember reading before.

http://globalnews.ca/news/560553/tim-bosma-a-timeline-of-the-police-investigation/

The interesting thing about it may actually be wrong, but seeing as how they have not come back and corrected it yet, it leaves room for it to be true. I don't know how to quote it or highlight it, but the part that intrigued me was in the timeline that says that TB's remains were found on the 14th and that the incinerator wasn't found until the 16th, and that the police refuse to confirm which location the remains were found at.

To me this should end any debate on whether or not the remains were found in the incinerator. Now the only debate would be whether or not it was used to burn the body. If it was not, I would really have to assume that it was not DM, as he would have known of its existence and would have used the correct tool for the job if it were available, in my opinion. If it was so well hidden that the police search didn't find it for another 2 days, it leads me to question whether the real killer knew of its existence or not, because again, people tend to use the appropriate tool for the job if it is available.

If it is so easy for one of the members here to look up the addresses and owner information to show us all when MB purchased her property, would it be so hard to frame DM by looking up the address of his hanger, his farm and mother's home? Couldn't someone just as easily follow you or I and figure out our routines and take advantage of a normal situation where we would have been the last person to be seen with someone, and then look up our addresses and leave a false trail of evidence on our properties?

 

[lanman]

I was looking for something else and came across this timeline that I don't remember reading before.

http://globalnews.ca/news/560553/tim-bosma-a-timeline-of-the-police-investigation/

The interesting thing about it may actually be wrong, but seeing as how they have not come back and corrected it yet, it leaves room for it to be true. I don't know how to quote it or highlight it, but the part that intrigued me was in the timeline that says that TB's remains were found on the 14th and that the incinerator wasn't found until the 16th, and that the police refuse to confirm which location the remains were found at.

To me this should end any debate on whether or not the remains were found in the incinerator. Now the only debate would be whether or not it was used to burn the body. If it was not, I would really have to assume that it was not DM, as he would have known of its existence and would have used the correct tool for the job if it were available, in my opinion. If it was so well hidden that the police search didn't find it for another 2 days, it leads me to question whether the real killer knew of its existence or not, because again, people tend to use the appropriate tool for the job if it is available.

If it is so easy for one of the members here to look up the addresses and owner information to show us all when MB purchased her property, would it be so hard to frame DM by looking up the address of his hanger, his farm and mother's home? Couldn't someone just as easily follow you or I and figure out our routines and take advantage of a normal situation where we would have been the last person to be seen with someone, and then look up our addresses and leave a false trail of evidence on our properties?

When the police announced that they found an incinerator on the 16th, they were just confirming what some of us already knew. We were talking about the incinerator on this board on the 14th, the same day the remains were found.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9429438&postcount=779"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Canada - Timothy Bosma, 32, Hamilton Ontario, 6 May 2013 - #3 **ARREST**[/ame]

 

[MsSherlock]

I was looking for something else and came across this timeline that I don't remember reading before.

http://globalnews.ca/news/560553/tim-bosma-a-timeline-of-the-police-investigation/

The interesting thing about it may actually be wrong, but seeing as how they have not come back and corrected it yet, it leaves room for it to be true. I don't know how to quote it or highlight it, but the part that intrigued me was in the timeline that says that TB's remains were found on the 14th and that the incinerator wasn't found until the 16th, and that the police refuse to confirm which location the remains were found at.

To me this should end any debate on whether or not the remains were found in the incinerator. Now the only debate would be whether or not it was used to burn the body. If it was not, I would really have to assume that it was not DM, as he would have known of its existence and would have used the correct tool for the job if it were available, in my opinion. If it was so well hidden that the police search didn't find it for another 2 days, it leads me to question whether the real killer knew of its existence or not, because again, people tend to use the appropriate tool for the job if it is available.

If it is so easy for one of the members here to look up the addresses and owner information to show us all when MB purchased her property, would it be so hard to frame DM by looking up the address of his hanger, his farm and mother's home? Couldn't someone just as easily follow you or I and figure out our routines and take advantage of a normal situation where we would have been the last person to be seen with someone, and then look up our addresses and leave a false trail of evidence on our properties?

Yes, Jubellee, property records complete with liens/charges against the property are public information. They can be obtained by anyone who wants to obtain them and can be very informative in complex cases like this.

"All registered and deposited records are available to the public (for a fee) to search title or obtain information about the ownership of real property."

http://www.gov.on.ca/en/information_bundle/land_registration/STEL01_130081.html

IMO, you're correct in saying that it's possible and I'm sure it has happened. The DM case is a bit different. MSM and releases from LE have provided the valuable connectors. The Waterloo Hangar and Hangar 4 in Toronto: this is not public info via land titles and no one would know that DM was involved with any Hangar from land records. Until DM's arrest, there was just minor MSM coverage on WM's venture. MB's house? There was no reference to MB prior to the trailer being found. It would have been extremely difficult to locate MB or associate her with DM by land records since she was never on title with any of DM's properties, and even then it would have been MM. IMO, that's why the trailer went to MB's house and not one of the other properties that had a DM association JMHO

The incinerator-apparently its difficult to identify cremated remains, but not impossible because of bone/teeth fragments left behind. This article mentions that if they have an idea who the remains belong to and know their dentist, identification can be much easier. Juballee, I remember it being discussed in another thread that the opening of the SN250 was not big enough for an average man's body, even though it had the capacity for the volume. IMO, unless DM was going to start farming chickens or something, he may not have had the right equipment to do the job. JMHO, but I don't think we've heard the end of the incinerator yet...MOO :scared:

"But it's rare, even in the most severe burning, that "some fragments of dental evidence" wouldn't exist."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/13/health/burned-body-id

 

[Snoofo]

Yes, Jubellee, property records complete with liens/charges against the property are public information. They can be obtained by anyone who wants to obtain them and can be very informative in complex cases like this.

"All registered and deposited records are available to the public (for a fee) to search title or obtain information about the ownership of real property."

http://www.gov.on.ca/en/information_bundle/land_registration/STEL01_130081.html

IMO, you're correct in saying that it's possible and I'm sure it has happened. The DM case is a bit different. MSM and releases from LE have provided the valuable connectors. The Waterloo Hangar and Hangar 4 in Toronto: this is not public info via land titles and no one would know that DM was involved with any Hangar from land records. Until DM's arrest, there was just minor MSM coverage on WM's venture. MB's house? There was no reference to MB prior to the trailer being found. It would have been extremely difficult to locate MB or associate her with DM by land records since she was never on title with any of DM's properties, and even then it would have been MM. IMO, that's why the trailer went to MB's house and not one of the other properties "that had a DM association JMHO

(bbm) Why would the hangars not be public info via land titles? A full parcel register can be obtained on any land, including government-owned land and roads. This is a fact. Sometimes the searching is tricky but it's all there for the finding. Properties at the hangars were not owned by DM, but they are still searchable and the Notices of Lease are likely on there.

 

[Snoofo]

So far as the rest including MB properties, I think the whole point is that DM would have been the target and he would have been known to the one who planted the evidence at the homes, including the knowledge of who his mother is and what area she lived in. Once he has the mother's name, it can be searched. And if DM is known to someone that would like to plant evidence at his homes, then that person or persons would already know all about the hangar, IMO.

I have believed that DM was the target of this crime, while TB was the unfortunate casualty. So I don't think anyone was out to kill TB and pulled DM's name out of a hat to target him as the murderer. :moo:

 

[Blomquist]

Yes, Jubellee, property records complete with liens/charges against the property are public information. They can be obtained by anyone who wants to obtain them and can be very informative in complex cases like this.

"All registered and deposited records are available to the public (for a fee) to search title or obtain information about the ownership of real property."

http://www.gov.on.ca/en/information_bundle/land_registration/STEL01_130081.html

IMO, you're correct in saying that it's possible and I'm sure it has happened. The DM case is a bit different. MSM and releases from LE have provided the valuable connectors. The Waterloo Hangar and Hangar 4 in Toronto: this is not public info via land titles and no one would know that DM was involved with any Hangar from land records. Until DM's arrest, there was just minor MSM coverage on WM's venture. MB's house? There was no reference to MB prior to the trailer being found. It would have been extremely difficult to locate MB or associate her with DM by land records since she was never on title with any of DM's properties, and even then it would have been MM. IMO, that's why the trailer went to MB's house and not one of the other properties that had a DM association JMHO

It is easy to find someones family especially with access to people who know DM or access to registries. When you apply for most government documents in Canada at least, you are asked for your mothers maiden name. Most government agencies would have access to this information. Anyone can ask questions also of people that know DM. If you google DM up comes Wayne and Carl Millard...and with Wayne along comes MB....for example their wildlife adventures etc were already online as was the obit for CM which gave the name Madeleine. If you know where to look you can find quite a lot. MOO

The incinerator-apparently its difficult to identify cremated remains, but not impossible because of bone/teeth fragments left behind. This article mentions that if they have an idea who the remains belong to and know their dentist, identification can be much easier. Juballee, I remember it being discussed in another thread that the opening of the SN250 was not big enough for an average man's body, even though it had the capacity for the volume. IMO, unless DM was going to start farming chickens or something, he may not have had the right equipment to do the job. JMHO, but I don't think we've heard the end of the incinerator yet...MOO :scared:

I;m sure people will continue to sleuth about the incinerator..... and until more info comes along its up for speculation. IMO a body would have had to have been sawed into pieces to fit into that incinerator and I don't believe that occurred JMO.... LE did not say TB had been found in parts. JMO

"But it's rare, even in the most severe burning, that "some fragments of dental evidence" wouldn't exist." But he was identified extremely quickly so that suggests to me that he was at least somewhat identifiable JMO
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/13/health/burned-body-id

Thanks for all links

 

[MsSherlock]

Thanks for all links

You are right Bloomquist..IMO if people want to find you they can. Isn't that the idea behind sleuthing? IMHO, the majority of people don't get sleuthed out unless they're applying for a credit card! :floorlaugh:

I do accept the fact we have different opinions on this. IMO if there was a concerted effort to get DM, in this day and age it could have been done without the complexities and certainly without the loss of an innocent persons life. A kilo of cocaine, child , tax evasion, counterfeiting, sexual assault, even the chop shop. There are may ways to ruin a person without an elaborate and expensive scheme. JMHO

 

[MsSherlock]

Actually Blomquist there are no true quotes from Kavanagh himself attributing the calls to DM. In fact I have been careful to note what Kavanagh has been saying himself and when its others doing the talking. I find Kavanagh to be more careful, doesnt seem to use too many lines that are coicindentally misleading and qick to dispell falsehoids even if they make the accused look worse. I believe him. Does anybody know when was the very last time we heard from Kavanagh?

Snoofo...I believe we last heard from Kavanagh when said there was only 1 set of human remains. JMHO

 

[MsSherlock]

(bbm) Why would the hangars not be public info via land titles? A full parcel register can be obtained on any land, including government-owned land and roads. This is a fact. Sometimes the searching is tricky but it's all there for the finding. Properties at the hangars were not owned by DM, but they are still searchable and the Notices of Lease are likely on there.

Snoofo, I understand the conclusions you're coming too. Toronto International is actually owned by Transport Canada and the Toronto Airport Authority manages it. IMO, the lease would be between the managers of the Airport ie) Toronto Airport Authority and not with the property owner ie Transport Canada. IMO, the TAA may appear on title and the individual hangar leases would be contracts with the TAA. MOO