The Kratz book

[Saul Vesalot]

I agree CoolJ.

Just curious CoolJ... why do you think Kratz is out there now spewing all this stuff? Anyone else can answer too lol But I'm sitting here thinking... is it all about book sales? Is he that narcissistic, that he doesn't want his "win" to be reversed, and it's about trying to take back control of the narrative? Which I don't think is working from what I am reading elsewhere JMO Most are quite sceptical about KK's motives and credibility, I know I am, but that's JMO

Maybe he is just a control freak. Trying to spin things. Maybe he is just dancing around for his devoted fans. As long as he has vocal fans he will probably pop out of the woodwork occasionally. You'll still be hearing from him in 15 years. If you are THAT lucky.

The letter that Kratz included in his book from SA makes me laugh.... I would love to see all the letters between the 2. It seemed pretty clear that Kratz was looking to write a book long before MaM came out, and SA seemed to still be professing his innocence, so I'm not sure why he thought the letter he included made SA look guilty?

He's pointed at everything else, whether it makes sense or not, whether it is true or not. I am waiting for him to denounce Steven's haircut as the style of hair a guilty man would have.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

What I find perhaps the most interesting, amusing thing about this whole topic, is how those who hold MaM in contempt, citing inaccuracies, bias,and outright lies, are salivating over a book, full of...inaccuracies, bias ,and outright lies!

They seem to view it, as "setting the record straight" about MaM, when MaM got it right! (as has been born out in the actual records, time and time again!!) The producers had no dog in the fight. Sure they wanted to highlight injustices in the system, and they showed us those from the perspective of their chosen subjects, but they never made a case for guilt or innocence of SA himself. You cannot say THAT about Kratz!).

One thing that has always bothered me greatly about this sub, the Making a Murderer forum, is watching people deny that MaM had anything to do with their belief that SA & BD were railroaded by MCSO and are in fact innocent. "I did not JUST watch MaM", I NEVER even watched MaM", "I watched MaM A LONG TIME ago, and barely remember it", I am going by CASE FILES and NOT MaM" and on and on...

I feel like this does a disservice to the producers, who did a damn fine, job, and almost seems to validates the claims of those who hold MaM in contempt. No one wants to cop to making up their minds, from information they got by watching MaM, but I'll tell you what that's exactly what Zellner DID, and she said as much! And that's what a lot of us did... and guess what?

There IS no real measurable difference in how I feel about this case, after all the research and effort, pertaining to the actual case file participating/reading here, on Reddit, and in all the far corners of the internet...I know a hell of a lot more about this case, the players, (and about a plethora of different issues, more than I wanted to about some things! Ha!), but I feel largely the same,emotionally as I did right after watching MaM. I thought they were framed then, and I still believe it now.

My hat is off to the producers. MaM was riveting. I think everyone should watch it. It will have a powerful effect on any intelligent person, who has a human soul, and cares at all, about our fellow travelers in this life! BUT... There is no brainwashing involved. I've seen enough documentaries to know that they all have a point of view, but this one was far and away more impartial than any I have ever seen. (I'm looking at you OBE! )

.

BRAVO, well put Safeguard!!! :cheers:

 

[BigCityAccountant]

All I have to say about KK wanting to be SA's pen pal while he was in jail is that it is just plain weird....

So, how does that work?? I just prosecuted you and put you in jail for life, but I want to be your pen pal and correspond with you?? Who does that??? Just plain weird...in my opinion.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

All I have to say about KK wanting to be SA's pen pal while he was in jail is that it is just plain weird....

So, how does that work?? I just prosecuted you and put you in jail for life, but I want to be your pen pal and correspond with you?? Who does that??? Just plain weird...in my opinion.

Someone who wants a book/wants to fix their reputation. Imagine if he HAD gotten Steven to confess. That might have put his life back on track, at least some. It might have vindicated him some. Or maybe he was writing letters to gloat? I could see him being weird enough to derive pleasure out of contacting Steven. Some serial killers take souvenirs of their kills....maybe the letters were something like that? Maybe they were Kratz's way to keep his life's highpoint going on and on.

 

[dexter75]

When he manipulates his audience on this press blitz, I can't help but think that he gets the same sort of thrill he got when manipulating abused women into situations where he could rape them.

MOO

Omg yes!
Classic Narcissist. He loves that power.
IMO


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[missy1974]

Someone who wants a book/wants to fix their reputation. Imagine if he HAD gotten Steven to confess. That might have put his life back on track, at least some. It might have vindicated him some. Or maybe he was writing letters to gloat? I could see him being weird enough to derive pleasure out of contacting Steven. Some serial killers take souvenirs of their kills....maybe the letters were something like that? Maybe they were Kratz's way to keep his life's highpoint going on and on.

Makes me wonder if Kratz is more thankful for MaM then SA and BD! He gets to find uninformed "journalists" and comedians to interview him and he gets to talk and talk and talk about just how bad MaM was

 

[dexter75]

BBM

That is the biggest problem IMO There are people that are capable of doing it, but I guess turning a blind eye to the facts doesn't really suit their agenda. JMO

This is just it.
IMO

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[dexter75]

Here's another alternative fact....

Zellner promised back in January 2016 that she would have evidence or SA free in 30 days.


Here is a tweet from Zellner last week (thanks to proudfootz handy dandy link in the tweet thread)...

February 23, 2017
KK quote: "KZ promised to id the real killer w/in 30 days." Never said, never so reckless-leave that to those we sue. #MakingAMurderer


I have looked back at her tweets, I don't see anything, not even from deleted one's, so I'm not sure where KK is getting this from. As for the 30 days, that would be pretty amazing considering these cases usually take years. jmo

Yep
That one REALLY left me scratching my head🤔
Frickin scratching it BALD over here trying to weed through Kratz c#@p!
IMO

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[Saul Vesalot]

Makes me wonder if Kratz is more thankful for MaM then SA and BD! He gets to find uninformed "journalists" and comedians to interview him and he gets to talk and talk and talk about just how bad MaM was

And he gets to point at all the people who hate him and talk about how poor and unfortunate he is. Classic narcissist stuff....finding ways to play the victim.

 

[dexter75]

What I find perhaps the most interesting, amusing thing about this whole topic, is how those who hold MaM in contempt, citing inaccuracies, bias,and outright lies, are salivating over a book, full of...inaccuracies, bias ,and outright lies!

They seem to view it, as "setting the record straight" about MaM, when MaM got it right! (as has been born out in the actual records, time and time again!!) The producers had no dog in the fight. Sure they wanted to highlight injustices in the system, and they showed us those from the perspective of their chosen subjects, but they never made a case for guilt or innocence of SA himself. You cannot say THAT about Kratz!).

One thing that has always bothered me greatly about this sub, the Making a Murderer forum, is watching people deny that MaM had anything to do with their belief that SA & BD were railroaded by MCSO and are in fact innocent. "I did not JUST watch MaM", I NEVER even watched MaM", "I watched MaM A LONG TIME ago, and barely remember it", I am going by CASE FILES and NOT MaM" and on and on...

I feel like this does a disservice to the producers, who did a damn fine, job, and almost seems to validates the claims of those who hold MaM in contempt. No one wants to cop to making up their minds, from information they got by watching MaM, but I'll tell you what that's exactly what Zellner DID, and she said as much! And that's what a lot of us did... and guess what?

There IS no real measurable difference in how I feel about this case, after all the research and effort, pertaining to the actual case file participating/reading here, on Reddit, and in all the far corners of the internet...I know a hell of a lot more about this case, the players, (and about a plethora of different issues, more than I wanted to about some things! Ha!), but I feel largely the same,emotionally as I did right after watching MaM. I thought they were framed then, and I still believe it now.

My hat is off to the producers. MaM was riveting. I think everyone should watch it. It will have a powerful effect on any intelligent person, who has a human soul, and cares at all, about our fellow travelers in this life! BUT... There is no brainwashing involved. I've seen enough documentaries to know that they all have a point of view, but this one was far and away more impartial than any I have ever seen. (I'm looking at you OBE! )

And the WS award for *best post of the day*
Goes to you, my friend!!
Jmo

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[proudfootz]

KK putting a book out at this point - when MaM brought the public spotlight onto the case, but before the final appeals - this is really the best possible time to get his book out and make whatever sales he will make.

This does not foreclose the possibility of KK's writing a real book about the case later, should the courts go against the state.

 

[dexter75]

The reason I feel that the documentary seems one sided is because this case is one sided. The truth is one sided. Kratz and company tell us that the producers ommited key evidence, but when they explain this "evidence" we find out its really not evidence at all, just made up stories, hearsay and assumptions.

JMO

Exactly.
Nothing new here folks, move along🙄
Smh
JMO

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[dexter75]

Yes. it's true. I would have liked interviews, from many of the people we don't see a lot of the Doc, but figure prominently in the case. Shame they declined to participate... And many people have accused the film makers of deliberately not showing their side.

That was one reason I did think SA was most likely not guilty, after watching. He seemed to be the only one that was an open book! Wouldn't you think the guilty parties, would be the ones not wanting anyone to see into their lives in such intimate detail?

The very fact that I could look at the faces and body language of key players, gave me the perspective that I couldn't have found in files.

For instance Sandra, just reading her testimony, I might have been inclined to be sympathetic, but I found her absolutely repulsive on the stand. She was the very epitome of a "rode-hard and put away wet" barfly. The kind of small, petty gossip monger, with her nose in the air, proudly declaring that she patronizes several bars and drives under the influence with complete immunity.

I have seen her type before, they don't fare as well around here. Cops wife, or not.Boston is definitely not Manitowoc! Hahaha!
This was a game to her. She put the whole thing in play, and then cried "victim". I beg to differ.

There are others, too, that you need to see, or you miss the glaring, "what the hell is up, with that person?". Ryan H comes immediately to mind. His testimony was some of the most unnerving footage in the film...(Not a fan.)

** I am going to purchase butings book! I practically live at Barnes & Nobel's. My girl is very obsessed percy Jackson fan, as well as Warrior Cats , and of course...Harry potter!

I swear we were related in another life❤
Excellent job!
Imho

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[IDK]

Does anyone know if Kratz will be privy to the test results when they are received by KZ and the state? Since he is no longer professionally involved, my guess would be "no". But I am thinking that out of "professional" (so hard to write that when referring to Kratz!) courtesy, perhaps his peers are sharing the information with him?

If he is in fact being kept out of the loop, I bet that is driving him absolutely crazy.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Thought I would share this from the trial transcripts. Looking back now, kind of sums it up all in his own words.

ATTORNEY KRATZ: Objection, it's irrelevant. My comments in this case are irrelevant.

So true, so true Mr. Kratz.

JMHO, of course.

 

[IDK]

Does anyone know if Kratz will be privy to the test results when they are received by KZ and the state? Since he is no longer professionally involved, my guess would be "no". But I am thinking that out of "professional" (so hard to write that when referring to Kratz!) courtesy, perhaps his peers are sharing the information with him?

If he is in fact being kept out of the loop, I bet that is driving him absolutely crazy.

To answer my own question, I'm sure KK will be informed of the results as they come in. The whole state establishment there has too much to lose by not having a coordinated, well rehearsed defense once the evidence is publicized. KK's media frenzy must be part of that. I must have been having an extremely naive moment to even imagine for a moment that KK won't be in the loop. He may not have any legal right to the information , but I'm sure it will all be shared with him. :gaah:

 

[proudfootz]

To answer my own question, I'm sure KK will be informed of the results as they come in. The whole state establishment there has too much to lose by not having a coordinated, well rehearsed defense once the evidence is publicized. KK's media frenzy must be part of that. I must have been having an extremely naive moment to even imagine for a moment that KK won't be in the loop. He may not have any legal right to the information , but I'm sure it will all be shared with him. :gaah:

IMHO you are quite right - KK knows too much to be thrown under the bus by the rest. The way the whole legal establishment involved itself in a missing person case - before there was any evidence of a crime having taken place - indicates to me that they were either very quick to jump to conclusions and coordinate a full court press against Steven and the Averys, or they knew ahead of time what was going to be 'found'.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/4kwenk/november_5_2005_timeline/

 

[proudfootz]

It's been intimated that JS (SA's gf at the time that he was framed for the murder of TH) asked film makers LR & MD not to include her comments because they were lies she was forced to tell under threat by SA.

Looks like the directors deny the claim.

http://i.imgur.com/L5Xt9j3.jpg

If it comes down to whom I feel is more likely telling the truth, I'm going to have to believe the documentarians.

 

[dexter75]

It's been intimated that JS (SA's gf at the time that he was framed for the murder of TH) asked film makers LR & MD not to include her comments because they were lies she was forced to tell under threat by SA.

Looks like the directors deny the claim.

http://i.imgur.com/L5Xt9j3.jpg

If it comes down to whom I feel is more likely telling the truth, I'm going to have to believe the documentarians.

Absolutely, proudfootz.
Absolutely.

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[Jaiddie]

http://www.crimecon.com/blog/2017/5...book-isnt-the-other-side-of-making-a-murderer

'Ken Kratz on Why His Book Isn't the "Other Side" of Making a Murderer'


"If one little piece of evidence gets Avery a new trial, if I were the State, I would welcome the opportunity to re-try Steven Avery because there is so much evidence that we didn't even use because we didn't have to in order to prove his guilt. We didn't use mitochondrial DNA matches or other forensic evidence that we had because it was unnecessary. We didn't use all the jail calls in which Avery made admissions to his family. So part of that was strategic and is still available to submit in case he gets a new trial."

I cannot believe the stuff that comes out of this man's mouth sometimes, I swear! :stormingmad:So now KK wants us to believe that the state had actual audio jail calls of SA, HIMSELF, admitting some things to his family about this crime and instead of submitting THAT to the court, he decided it would be better to go with the jail snitch's testimony about the supposed "torture room" SA told him he wanted to make. Not only that but the state ALSO had more DNA matches that pointed to SA but decided to save that evidence for a new trial? Does KK listen to himself?!? Does he not realize that there is gonna come a day where he will be ordered to produce all this unnecessary "evidence"? I do not believe for one minute that the state decided to sit on (what I would consider to be) all this explosive "evidence". KK would have been shouting all this from the rooftops if they had evidence of SA admitting any kind of guilt or DNA matches other than the blood in the RAV4.

Sorry about the rant, but KK makes me so angry with all of the delusional stuff that he has spouted. Ugh! :furious::shakehead: