The Networks Know Who Did It

[BlueCrab]

http://crime.about.com/library/weekly/aa051800a.htm

crimeADM
Is it your opinion that Burke was asleep when JonBenet was killed?
SteveThomas
I certainly do not know anything to lead me to believe that Burke was present or aware that his sister was being
assaulted/killed

As you know, Steve Thomas was hellbent on trying to prove his theory that Patsy killed JonBenet. He wasn't seriously interested in anything to the contrary.

Incidentally, Steve Thomas was never a lead detective in the case.

JMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Who were these boys?

I don't know "for sure" who the other boy(s) were. There may have been no one else except Burke. In my theory I believe that Doug Stine, Burke's best friend, is involved. Doug was about 10 years old at the time. I base this part of my theory on the suspicious behaviors of Glen and Susan Stine following the murder.

There's also a possibility that Nathan Inouye, a teenage college student who lived at the Stine's house and cared for Doug while the parents worked, could be involved. Nathan was a member of the pro-active Asian Pacific American Coalition at CU, a group of 29 that suspiciously disbanded just weeks after the murder of JonBenet.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[popcorn]

BC,

I agree Burke was responsible for JonBenet's death. Nothing as fancy as you suggest though. More likley a simple shove in intense anger by an uncoordinated little boy. Burke can't be charged because of his age. Patsy and John can't be charged with conspiracy as technically there is no crime. I'll go a step further and say the DA's office and the Ramsey's attorneys have partcipated in the conspiracy since the wee hours of the 26th and alas since there was no crime they have been able to pull it off and will continue.

There has always been enough evidence against John and Pasty to get them into a courtroom for their partcipation after the accident- the note, the staging, the fibers, the pineapple, etc.etc.etc. It is the DA that has controlled the process. The Ramseys had an intimate connection to the DA's office before the murder. It was the DA's office who insisted Pam be allowed to paw through the crime sceene. It was the DA's office who stymied the release of phone and credit card records giving time to sponge them clean. It was the DA's office who hired a crippled, uneducated rat and called him a fox. It is the DA's office who continues to kiss the a** of LL Wood and his celebrated clients. The newest twist is the DA's office is believed to have erased the end portion of the 911 tape that circulated the media.

I doubt it was any sort of rare sexual event though, more likely everyday sibling rivalry. We've all read sensational reports of 10 year olds sexually abusing younger females but rarely read of the everyday, every hour, every minute occurances of domestic abuse between siblings. It's actually the highest rated form of abuse. Hospital ER's would likely go out of business without the visits.



It was Burke who was removed from the crime scene with possible evidence. It was Burke who recanted his statements.

 

[BlueCrab]

BC,

I agree Burke was responsible for JonBenet's death. Nothing as fancy as you suggest though. More likley a simple shove in intense anger by an uncoordinated little boy. Burke can't be charged because of his age. Patsy and John can't be charged with conspiracy as technically there is no crime. I'll go a step further and say the DA's office and the Ramsey's attorneys have partcipated in the conspiracy since the wee hours of the 26th and alas since there was no crime they have been able to pull it off and will continue.

There has always been enough evidence against John and Pasty to get them into a courtroom for their partcipation after the accident- the note, the staging, the fibers, the pineapple, etc.etc.etc. It is the DA that has controlled the process. The Ramseys had an intimate connection to the DA's office before the murder. It was the DA's office who insisted Pam be allowed to paw through the crime sceene. It was the DA's office who stymied the release of phone and credit card records giving time to sponge them clean. It was the DA's office who hired a crippled, uneducated rat and called him a fox. It is the DA's office who continues to kiss the a** of LL Wood and his celebrated clients. The newest twist is the DA's office is believed to have erased the end portion of the 911 tape that circulated the media.

I doubt it was any sort of rare sexual event though, more likely everyday sibling rivalry. We've all read sensational reports of 10 year olds sexually abusing younger females but rarely read of the everyday, every hour, every minute occurances of domestic abuse between siblings. It's actually the highest rated form of abuse. Hospital ER's would likely go out of business without the visits.



It was Burke who was removed from the crime scene with possible evidence. It was Burke who recanted his statements.

Popcorn, I can comfortably agree with everything you just stated. It could have been nothing but sibling rivalry and jealousy gone bonkers and the parents covering it all up. A BDI theory can meander off in a hundred different directions.

One thing we can be sure of, THERE WAS NO INTRUDER, unless he had been invited into the house or was a houseguest. An intruder wouldn't spend all that time in an occupied house unless he didn't care whether or not he got his brains blown out. An intruder had no reason to write a fake ransom note. JonBenet wouldn't have gone downstairs with an intruder to snack on pineapple about 1 1/2 hours before she died. I can go on and add a dozen or so more reasons why there was no intruder.

But why the viciousness of the staging by the parents? What would motivate them to mutilate the body and write a long and naive ransom note? Why didn't the Ramseys just leave everything the way they found it and call 911? The answer I think is the Ramseys did very little or none of the staging. The boys did almost all of the staging, trying to pin the death on a small foreign faction.

So that leaves the fake ransom note. Was Burke able to author such a document all by himself? Expert examiners say neither John nor Patsy wrote it. There had to be a fifth person in the house that night, and that fifth person authored the note. Judging from the verbiage used in the note, that person was a teen.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[popcorn]

"But why the viciousness of the staging by the parents?"

The coroner had no idea there was even a head injury. She wasn't beaten to a pulp as media reports frequently suggest. She was able to be shown in an open casket in her crowning glory. She would have looked much different at the time of death than hours later when death takes over and changes the appearance. What is interpreted as vicious can also be happenstance. There's not even 100% agreement the vaginal trauma was sexual in nature. The blood in her panties- diaper rash will bleed, she was unkempt in that regard. The erosion of her hymen- she had a new bike that day, bikes and horseback riding have long played a part in the status of a girl's hymen.

This conspiracy theory has the Ramsey's attorneys collaberating with the staging. They wrote the script and the Ramsey's merely acted out their parts. The DA had no choice but to continue the conspiracy, there is no crime.

 

[Shylock]

With all due respect Candy, you don't know what the investigators really believed.

Why does it even matter what these so-called "investigators" believed? We do have the ability to engage our OWN brains here, do we not?

Anyone who does not believe that Burke had the ability to (in some way) cause that head wound isn't playing with a full deck.

The same can be said about anyone who doesn't realize that Burke, because he was in the house at the time, had the OPPORTUNITY to be somehow involved in the crime.

The SIMPLE fact that Burke had both the ABILITY and OPPORTUNITY to commit the crime makes him a suspect in anyone's book. (Anyone with at least half a brain that is - sorry, but the logic is that simple.)


IMO/JMO

 

[tipper]

Re: bicycles, horses and hymens.

http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/svc/prog/child-abuse/faq/detect.htm#bicycle injuries

Q. Can bicycle injuries or other straddle-type injuries break my daughter's hymen?
A. Most straddle injuries do not result in injury to the hymen.

 

[BlueCrab]

"But why the viciousness of the staging by the parents?"

The coroner had no idea there was even a head injury. She wasn't beaten to a pulp as media reports frequently suggest. She was able to be shown in an open casket in her crowning glory. She would have looked much different at the time of death than hours later when death takes over and changes the appearance. What is interpreted as vicious can also be happenstance. There's not even 100% agreement the vaginal trauma was sexual in nature. The blood in her panties- diaper rash will bleed, she was unkempt in that regard. The erosion of her hymen- she had a new bike that day, bikes and horseback riding have long played a part in the status of a girl's hymen.

This conspiracy theory has the Ramsey's attorneys collaberating with the staging. They wrote the script and the Ramsey's merely acted out their parts. The DA had no choice but to continue the conspiracy, there is no crime.

There was a crime, and it was vicious. JonBenet was sexually molested on the night she died, she was strangled, her skull was split nearly in two by a powerful blow, and there is evidence that a stun gun had been used on her -- possibly as a means of torture.

JonBent's hymen was eroded away over time and almost totally gone, and she had acute and chronic injuries to the vagina. The acute injuries bled.

There is no evidence the parents killed JonBenet, and I doubt the parents are capable of such a vicious crime; but only the coverup. So why would they cover up? They wouldn't cover up for an adult, including each other. The only person they would cover up for is Burke.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

I find it interesting that Sirotnak, who actually examined JonBenet's body, is not willing (to my knowledge) to declare there was prior vaginal abuse. I don't know of anybody who denies there was acute vaginal damage done that night.

 

[BlueCrab]

I find it interesting that Sirotnak, who actually examined JonBenet's body, is not willing (to my knowledge) to declare there was prior vaginal abuse. I don't know of anybody who denies there was acute vaginal damage done that night.

Doctors John Meyer and Andrew Sirotnak, a pediatrician, weren't looking for chronic injuries on the night of December 26 when they examined JonBenet at the morgue. The autopsy hadn't yet been performed. They were verifying that JonBenet had suffered acute injuries to the vagina. John Meyer wanted his original opinion that the injuries were consistent with sexual assault to be confirmed in event of a criminal trial. It was confirmed.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

According to Schiller he was called in by Meyer after the autopsy. Possibly before the microscope work was done though. However, according to what is posted elsewhere and supposedly written by the secretary of the BPD lawyer team he was later asked to review the findings and autopsy photographs and still would not conclude there was chronic abuse.

 

[BlueCrab]

According to Schiller he was called in by Meyer after the autopsy. Probably before the microscope work was done though. However, according to what is posted elsewhere and supposedly written by the secretary of the BPD lawyer team he was later asked to review the findings and autopsy photographs and still would not conclude there was chronic abuse.

You're right Tipper, Meyer and Sirotnik reexamined JonBenet AFTER the autopsy to verify acute injuries to the vagina. My mistake.

JMO

 

[sissi]

Bluecrab quote.....There's also a possibility that Nathan Inouye......

I will admit,I have had questions about this person . It seems he had access to the children ,he transported them to school,and at times babysat. I don't suspect him,I just think he should have been thoroughly investigated because of his,unsupervised , access to Jonbenet.
JMO

 

[K777angel]

Burke Ramsey has never been "cleared" as has John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey. The statement from Hunter was nothing more than a response to lawyer threats. Not so with JA and Melinda. Why? Why not "clear" him way back when they cleared JA and Melinda if they were so "certain" he was not involved? They didn't. And couldn't.

The most logical scenario of how this crime happened with the facts that we know, is that Burke Ramsey accidentally killed his sister by striking her hard in the head. (He may or may not have molested her before this, it may have simply been part of the staging.) His parents then walked in on this horror and made the decision to cover it up and make it look like a kidnapping.
It fits with the choices they made - and did NOT make regarding Burke that day. It fits with Burke's complete lack of concern about his sister's welfare - which I still find stunning given the fact that this kid was just 3 weeks shy of age 10. It fits with Burke's lack of concern about HIS own safety after his sister is "murdered" in their own house. It fits with the psychologist's observation of him after the murder that "his lack of affect is pronounced. It fits with John's rendition of Burke's response - or lack of it - when they finally (after several hours of "discovering" JonBenet dead) broke the "news" to Burke that his sister was dead. Burke nodded his head and ran off to play!! HUH??
It fits with Burke walking through the house that morning to head to Fleet White's house asking NO questions about what is going on, why are all these police and people here? Why aren't we going on the plane to Michigan? But more concerned about his Nintendo game.
It fits with Burke walking out his sister's Memorial service SMILING and hopping down the steps of the church when everyone else is somber and sad.
It fits with Patsy sobbing when she accompanies him to speak to the police psychologist shortly after the murder.
It fits with John and Patsy NOT waking Burke up to ask him if he saw anything, heard anything etc. - or to SEE if he was alright laying there in that bed...
It fits with Burke's voice heard on the 911 tape concerned about himself saying, "But what do I do?" And it fits with his father's TERSE reply to him.
And then shuffling him out of the house. Unprotected and away from their sight and care when they are supposedly being "monitored" and these are supposed dangerous and violent criminals who claimed they would go so far as to "behead" their little girl if they instructions were not followed.
It fits with moving Burke away and putting him (after a difficult search to find one) in a new private school.
It fits with the Ramseys going absolute bonkers and suing publications who claimed that it was indeed Burke Ramsey who caused the tragic death of his sister and the parents covered it up. Particularly the New York Post. I think they hit it on the head and had inside sources to back it up and the Ramseys went crazy trying to squelch this information.
They have NEVER sued on behalf of John Ramsey though.
Which fits in with what detectives have said all along. That they believe John truly was not initially involved in the case and only discovered over time what had happened.
Which leads one to believe that the suing is done not to stop rumors of untruths - but to squelch leaks of TRUTH.
It fits with Alex Hunter's comment to Geraldo near the end of his DA term that "you'd be very surprised at who the target was..." We would NOT at all be surprised if it was Patsy, or John even - as they were BOTH named as being under that famous umbrella of suspicion. Everyone WOULD however be "very surprised" to learn that is was Burke - after being told he wasn't a "suspect" or under the umbrella.....

I am not 100% convinced that Burke Ramsey was involved in the death of JonBenet. But it is my #1 theory and has been for some time. For more reasons than I've stated here.

~Angel~

 

[Barbara]

Burke Ramsey has never been "cleared" as has John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey. The statement from Hunter was nothing more than a response to lawyer threats. Not so with JA and Melinda. Why? Why not "clear" him way back when they cleared JA and Melinda if they were so "certain" he was not involved? They didn't. And couldn't.

The most logical scenario of how this crime happened with the facts that we know, is that Burke Ramsey accidentally killed his sister by striking her hard in the head. (He may or may not have molested her before this, it may have simply been part of the staging.) His parents then walked in on this horror and made the decision to cover it up and make it look like a kidnapping.
It fits with the choices they made - and did NOT make regarding Burke that day. It fits with Burke's complete lack of concern about his sister's welfare - which I still find stunning given the fact that this kid was just 3 weeks shy of age 10. It fits with Burke's lack of concern about HIS own safety after his sister is "murdered" in their own house. It fits with the psychologist's observation of him after the murder that "his lack of affect is pronounced. It fits with John's rendition of Burke's response - or lack of it - when they finally (after several hours of "discovering" JonBenet dead) broke the "news" to Burke that his sister was dead. Burke nodded his head and ran off to play!! HUH??
It fits with Burke walking through the house that morning to head to Fleet White's house asking NO questions about what is going on, why are all these police and people here? Why aren't we going on the plane to Michigan? But more concerned about his Nintendo game.
It fits with Burke walking out his sister's Memorial service SMILING and hopping down the steps of the church when everyone else is somber and sad.
It fits with Patsy sobbing when she accompanies him to speak to the police psychologist shortly after the murder.
It fits with John and Patsy NOT waking Burke up to ask him if he saw anything, heard anything etc. - or to SEE if he was alright laying there in that bed...
It fits with Burke's voice heard on the 911 tape concerned about himself saying, "But what do I do?" And it fits with his father's TERSE reply to him.
And then shuffling him out of the house. Unprotected and away from their sight and care when they are supposedly being "monitored" and these are supposed dangerous and violent criminals who claimed they would go so far as to "behead" their little girl if they instructions were not followed.
It fits with moving Burke away and putting him (after a difficult search to find one) in a new private school.
It fits with the Ramseys going absolute bonkers and suing publications who claimed that it was indeed Burke Ramsey who caused the tragic death of his sister and the parents covered it up. Particularly the New York Post. I think they hit it on the head and had inside sources to back it up and the Ramseys went crazy trying to squelch this information.
They have NEVER sued on behalf of John Ramsey though.
Which fits in with what detectives have said all along. That they believe John truly was not initially involved in the case and only discovered over time what had happened.
Which leads one to believe that the suing is done not to stop rumors of untruths - but to squelch leaks of TRUTH.
It fits with Alex Hunter's comment to Geraldo near the end of his DA term that "you'd be very surprised at who the target was..." We would NOT at all be surprised if it was Patsy, or John even - as they were BOTH named as being under that famous umbrella of suspicion. Everyone WOULD however be "very surprised" to learn that is was Burke - after being told he wasn't a "suspect" or under the umbrella.....

I am not 100% convinced that Burke Ramsey was involved in the death of JonBenet. But it is my #1 theory and has been for some time. For more reasons than I've stated here.

~Angel~

Excellent! Excellent! Excellent K777Angel,

I agree with you 1000% (if that's possible ). Burke is my #1 theory as well.
Like John said, perhaps we have to wait until Burke is 40 till he remembers

 

[K777angel]

Thank you Barbara.

~Angel~

 

[Ivy]

Outstanding post, K777angel!

Besides everything you described, another thing that makes me suspect Burke is that his red Swiss Army knife, the one LHP had hidden in the upstairs cupboard, was found near JonBenet's body. During the interview with the psychologist, Burke said "I know what happened." While describing what he'd supposedly been told that the killer did, he said the killer "took a knife." At the time of Burke's interview, no one, including John, Patsy and Burke, had been told that investigators had found Burke's knife, or any knife, near JonBenet's body.

If John and/or Patsy killed JonBenet and used the knife in any part of the crime or the staging, they must have forgotten to remove it from the crime scene...but why would they include it when telling Burke some concocted version of what happened to JonBenet? It doesn't make sense. I think Burke inadvertently took his sister's life and that the Swiss Army knife was somehow involved in what happened...but that John and Patsy didn't notice the knife when they staged the coverup.

 

[K777angel]

Outstanding post, K777angel!

Besides everything you described, another thing that makes me suspect Burke is that his red Swiss Army knife, the one LHP had hidden in the upstairs cupboard, was found near JonBenet's body. During the interview with the psychologist, Burke said "I know what happened." While describing what he'd supposedly been told that the killer did, he said the killer "took a knife." At the time of Burke's interview, no one, including John, Patsy and Burke, had been told that investigators had found Burke's knife, or any knife, near JonBenet's body.

If John and/or Patsy killed JonBenet and used the knife in any part of the crime or the staging, they must have forgotten to remove it from the crime scene...but why would they include it when telling Burke some concocted version of what happened to JonBenet? It doesn't make sense. I think Burke inadvertently took his sister's life and that the Swiss Army knife was somehow involved in what happened...but that John and Patsy didn't notice the knife when they staged the coverup.

Thanks Ivy.
You know one thing that I found curious in the search warrant was the listing of string from a sled found down there in the basement near the "wine cellar" room. Might that cord on JonBenet have come from that?
And with Burke's Swiss Army knife found nearby.......

 

[popcorn]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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:clap:

 

[Ivy]

angel, I'd forgotten about the sled cord! I don't remember reading or hearing if it matched the ligature cord. I wonder if that info is available somewhere.

Burke could have used the knife to fashion the ligature device, whether to cut the cord or to whittle the paint stick (if it was whittled)...or both. Wood shavings were found near by, and LHP said that he liked to whittle and that he whittled a lot, leaving the wood shavings for someone else to clean up.

In the interview, after Burke mentioned a knife, he is described as making a fast, sweeping motion across his neck with his hand. This has been interpreted as a mistaken notion on Burke's part that the killer had slit JonBenet's throat. Because her throat wasn't slit, investigators apparently brushed aside any possible connection between Burke and the knife and JonBenet's death. They didn't consider that when he made the sweeping motion across his neck, he may have been demonstrating the ligature being yanked, not her neck being slashed with a knife.