What are your thoughts on the Jonbenet case?

[UKGuy]

Respectfully, our US mental health system may be different from where you live. That is to say, we barely have mental health services here, no joke. I work with foster kids, so I’m pretty familiar with mental health treatment and criminal charges against children. Are you saying by the above quote that the parents may have been told BR was violent and would kill JonBenet? There is no “medical detention” in the US for a 9-year-old who accidentally kills his sister.

It is my educated opinion that BR would never have been taken away from his parents for any reason, especially if they said it was an accident. There would be some small chance if he killed another child, but if his parents defended and lied for him for killing his sister, a young boy would not be institutionalized in the US.

I really appreciate your perspective because I know many people agree with you and they think this is why BDI and his parents covered it up. I still don’t understand, but I would like to understand what drove the insane coverup because BDI makes some sense to me. Thank you.

Tower,

Are you saying by the above quote that the parents may have been told BR was violent and would kill JonBenet? There is no “medical detention” in the US for a 9-year-old who accidentally kills his sister.

No, just that the parents were likely aware that JonBenet and Burke, were let us say, interacting, and they had been advised on how to deal with it, e.g. therapy, etc.

The Ramsey's would have been concerned that Burke might have been mandated to undergo therapy of some description, or brought under the oversight of some medical scheme, thereby removing him from the parent's orbit?

Many people speculate that he did receive therapy linked to his sister's death.

What drove the coverup was to keep Burke away from the legal system and the parents out of court.

In this they succeeded, John Ramsey continues to this day to appear on documentaries revising events to suit the latest forensic evidence.

Just compare what he originally said about the flashlight with what he told Dr Phil when he interviewed Burke on the Dr. Phil show.

The case is BDI, there is no intruder to be seen anywhere, Patsy staged the wine-cellar crime-scene along with John to save Burke. JonBenet was found wearing size-12 Bloomingdale underwear and Burke Ramsey's longjohns, complete opening at the front!

Neither parent would dress JonBenet like this for a crime-scene as its not really staging, its akin to just putting clothes on, i.e. any?

The person who likely redressed JonBenet was Burke Ramsey. The parents turned up after the event to tweak the crime-scene and remove any damning evidence, oh and write a ransom note.

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[UKGuy]

It's pretty fascinating yet frightening as someone that used to be a huge Germaphobe as a kid... I am a bit skeptical about it just because this was a girl that was home in her nightclothes in bed and we don't know if her underwear was even brandnew straight from the pack (unless I missed it). If she just came from a crowded area, festival, or Disney World maybe I could see it. I wonder if the family had a maid or nanny situation that folded her laundry? That would make more sense to me than someone that randomly came into contact with her or touched something that she came into contact with. I did find an interesting article on the subject that mentions JonBenet's case.

"Touch DNA is also central to the murder case of Colorado toddler JonBenet Ramsey. Thanks to joint reporting by Denver’s 9News and the Boulder Daily Camera, current Boulder County district attorney Stan Garnett announced three weeks ago that he is reopening the DNA portion of the investigation initially conducted by his predecessor, Mary Lacy. In 2008, she concluded in a letter exonerating the Ramsey family that an unknown male’s DNA on JonBenet’s underwear must belong to the killer because no innocent explanation existed for its presence." ‘Touch DNA’ Evidence Can Lead to Convictions for Innocent People | National Review

In my personal opinion I can see how DNA can be transfered like this but am skeptical because of not hearing about it widespread in other murder cases. If it was that common to be covered in others DNA constantly then wouldn't DNA evidence not be as credible as it is in court?

Also the placement of the DNA inside the little girls underwear where a possible vaginal injury was noted during her autopsy. Sorry I am a bit skeptical. That article is really interesting if you get a chance to read it.

aThousandYearsWide,
Sure, the case is one of those you could not invent for a novel.

In my personal opinion I can see how DNA can be transfered like this but am skeptical because of not hearing about it widespread in other murder cases. If it was that common to be covered in others DNA constantly then wouldn't DNA evidence not be as credible as it is in court?

It's only credible when the match is 100% genuine and the conviction is safe, otherwise Expert Witness's just throw statistic about in the court to suggest that it is impossible the dna arrived by any other route than direct contact

So here is dna that links Burke Ramsey directly to the wine-cellar:
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 414, Excerpt

Horita indicated that Touch DNA testing had discovered traces of genetic material on the pink Barbie nightgown found in the Wine Cellar with the body of JonBenét. This Touch DNA belonged to Patsy and Burke Ramsey.

And about the dna in general:
The Clue that Breaks the Ramsey Case | KGOV.com

DNA Update -- History Repeats Itself: Twice now Boulder District Attorneys have misled the public in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. [KGOV updated this report on August 28, 2019.]

- DNA Not from a Single Intruder: In 2016 Boulder's Daily Camera and Denver's 9News obtained the crime scene DNA report and their undisputed analysis found that in two of the three DNA specimens, the "a 3rd person's genetic markers" were present. The Camera's headline: DNA in doubt: New analysis challenges DA's exoneration of Ramseys. Further, from USA Today, "three forensic experts who examined the DNA test results and lab reports used by [D.A. Mary] Lacy say they do not support her conclusion. For one thing, a sample on [JonBenet's] underwear identified as coming from 'Unknown Male 1' may in fact be a composite from multiple people". That the DNA was not of a single person but from multiple people removes the "best evidence" for the intruder theory. Further, District Attorney Lacy had been told that the foreign DNA was from multiple people and not from a single intruder! Yet in 2008 Lacy became the second Boulder D.A. to grossly mislead the public, in her case through confirmation bias by withholding the whole truth and implying that the DNA pointed to a single intruder. Of course, this brand new revelation, DNA specimens on JonBenet's underwear from multiple persons, reinforces the theory of the case argued on air for two decades by Denver radio talk show host Bob Enyart.

- Grand Jury Votes to INDICT the Ramseys: The previous district attorney in liberal Boulder, Alex Hunter, in 1999, misled the nation to believe that the Ramsey Grand Jury had not voted to indict the parents. The Denver Post quoted Hunter, "The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well... we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated..." But as not revealed until 2013 by the newspaper of record, the Boulder Camera, with this headline: JonBenet Ramsey grand jury voted to indict parents in 1999! So the grand jurors, even without hearing from the lead detectives and without summoning John and Patsy, voted to indict them with multiple felonies including child abuse resulting in death, as is consistent of course with this BEL report, The Clue the Breaks the Case.

The case is RDI, there was no intruder, all that is left is to work out were both parents and Burke involved in the death of JonBenet, or was her death the result of an unintentional homicide whilst the parents staged the crime-scene, or is the case a First Degree Homicide attributable to one of the parents?

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[UKGuy]

A reason not to call for help to assist an injured JB is to cover up her chronic SA, which would have been discovered at the hospital. A maniacal intruder(s) had to be conjured up in order to divert responsibility from the family. As SA was part of the staging, it indicates that at least one of the three Rs was aware of prior events. That she had endured this treatment without aid of her parents might be behind the language of the GJ indictments.

The indictments can be interpreted as BDI. ITA that BDI offers the most consistent reading of the available evidence. The weak link in it for me is the motivation. An impulsive moment of rage is often behind BDI. This could account for the head blow, but not for the strangulation, which was the cause of death. BR might rationalize that, since he didn't asphyxiate JB, he didn't kill his sister? No one claims that BR wrote the RN.

DNA is the last refuge of Team R. Why was JB wearing the size 12s under long johns to begin with? JR has no answers to the most important, lingering questions; and so, he uses the DNA purely as a diversion.

proust20,
Really good points above.

The indictments can be interpreted as BDI. ITA that BDI offers the most consistent reading of the available evidence. The weak link in it for me is the motivation. An impulsive moment of rage is often behind BDI. This could account for the head blow, but not for the strangulation, which was the cause of death. BR might rationalize that, since he didn't asphyxiate JB, he didn't kill his sister? No one claims that BR wrote the RN.

Burke may have manually asphyxiated JonBenet by applying an armhold on her neck, but this might have resulted in her going into a coma?

Burke may have whacked her on the head to stage her lack of movement by offering a visible sign of injury?

Similary either parent might have asphyxiated or whacked JonBenet on the head both intended as staging?

Just depends on your current favorite RDI theory.

I reckon Patsy asphyxiated JonBenet, did she know JonBenet was alive, I do not know, but she denied her medical assistance, so does that make it First Degree Murder?

Why would Hunter endanger his job and career to make sure the case went to a GJ where he could control what went in front of the jurors, and if that failed then he could refuse to file the True Bills in an open court, as he did?

Hunter's only legal justification would be Colorado's Child Protection Statutes, i.e. to keep Burke out of the headlines. He could not make this claim about the parents, else he would be party to a homicide conspiracy.

So although an impulsive moment of rage is a good explanation for the head blow, it need not be the only one.

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[proust20]

Knowing the order of the head blow and the strangulation would go far in determining motive. Another question is whether PR intentionally incriminated herself in the staging.

I agree that this case has a fictional quality, one both harsh and baroque. It's sort of a Cubist novel in which different fragments align without producing a recognizable, overall picture. There are many peculiar patterns and symmetries. For instance, there is the TV appearance by the Rs in which they hold up the reward poster. The reward was $100,ooo, which, of course, is the amount demanded by the RN in one hundred dollar bills. They should have been aware of this repetition, and have come up with another number. A $250,ooo reward sounds even more serious, and it would make no practical difference, as they would never have to outlay the money anyway. This would have distanced them from the RN, instead of echoing it.

Something that I never understood in the RN is why the 118k was to be split into bills of two different denominations. Why would the kidnapper(s) care how they received the cash? All that this would accomplish is to increase the bulk of the package.

On paper, JR is the most likely suspect. Paradoxically, the lack of evidence pointing to him could lead to the conclusion of his guilt in a case which has many logical/anti-logical twists and turns. I think that JR contributed much to the RN's contents. "Listen carefully!" could be JR instructing PR as she copied down his dictation?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Knowing the order of the head blow and the strangulation would go far in determining motive. Another question is whether PR intentionally incriminated herself in the staging.

proust20,
Seems an odd thing that we do not know which came first: strangulation or head blow.
What we do know is that, there was an hour and a half between the head blow and strangulation.
A long amount of time went by, for such a minimal amount of bleeding retrieved from her head. This was not a small wound and head wounds bleed, profusely.

IMO, JB was first grabbed by the collar E. g. (the red turtle neck sweater). She was then struck on the head and then strangled. The last strangulation took her life. The previous three incidences; did not take her life. E.g. choke, head bash, SA.

Again, IMO, PR was probably so distraught by her actions she failed to think about her fiber evidence. She did throw up in the Sunroom on the morning of the 26th. Obviously, there were witnesses. She knows she is sitting directly on top of JB’s body. It makes me sick thinking about it.

I agree that this case has a fictional quality, one both harsh and baroque. It's sort of a Cubist novel in which different fragments align without producing a recognizable, overall picture. There are many peculiar patterns and symmetries. For instance, there is the TV appearance by the Rs in which they hold up the reward poster. The reward was $100,ooo, which, of course, is the amount demanded by the RN in one hundred dollar bills. They should have been aware of this repetition, and have come up with another number. A $250,ooo reward sounds even more serious, and it would make no practical difference, as they would never have to outlay the money anyway. This would have distanced them from the RN, instead of echoing it.

Something that I never understood in the RN is why the 118k was to be split into bills of two different denominations. Why would the kidnapper(s) care how they received the cash? All that this would accomplish is to increase the bulk of the package.

Most definitely the R’s version of events are a fictional story. Part PR, part JR and even BR has his own version. This is why the lies point us to the truth. Balanced and bazaar seems to sort the outline each R played in JB’s murder. Funny you mention the reward poster. Then mention their repetition of dividing money into denominations. The R’s were movie buffs. I saw they because there was a poster of ‘Somewhere in time’in the basement. True romance if there ever was one. I can’t imagine JR sitting through this movie any more then I can see PR watching Star Trek. There were several movie posters in the basement that were taken from their previous homes “movie theatre”. There are 8 movies that I know of whose lines are referenced in the RN. Kidnapping, murder, ransom, intrigue, federation~foreign faction.

On paper, JR is the most likely suspect. Paradoxically, the lack of evidence pointing to him could lead to the conclusion of his guilt in a case which has many logical/anti-logical twists and turns. I think that JR contributed much to the RN's contents. "Listen carefully!" could be JR instructing PR as she copied down his dictation?

Great point! Makes all the sense in the world. Dictation is something he is apparently familiar with.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip> I think that JR contributed much to the RN's contents. "Listen carefully!" could be JR instructing PR as she copied down his dictation?

Why would John tell himself to listen carefully?

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>Again, IMO, PR was probably so distraught by her actions she failed to think about her fiber evidence. She did throw up in the Sunroom on the morning of the 26th. Obviously, there were witnesses. She knows she is sitting directly on top of JB’s body. It makes me sick thinking about it.</snip>

There's a scene in the movie Ransom where the mother hears a gunshot over the phone and thinks her son has been killed. She is then seen vomiting in the kitchen sink.

 

[proust20]

icedtea4me,

My point was that perhaps JR was dictating the RN to PR, and instructed her to "Listen carefully!" to what he was saying to her so that she transcribed accurately what he was saying to her.

 

[whatwhatchickenbutt]

Burke shows signs of being neurodivergent. The accusations against someone because they don't conform to your label of what is normal or looks acceptable is incredibly selfish, misguided and bullying. Burke: has been cleared. He sued CBS and won millions of dollars for the accusations against him. Simply DID NOT go down like that. It was an intruder. JB was very high profile in pageants. She was a very pretty little girl, even outside of pageants. Nobody in this family has a history of beating, killing or otherwise psychopathic behavior. So why would they suddenly change their behavior? Burke has not SINCE been accused of anything since then. This type of sick fetish behavior doesn't simply GO AWAY.

Meyer the neighbor is good for it. He had a key. Someone has since said they saw him there the night of the crime near the home. He was very violent towards his own stepdaaughter. Dad's information was out on his desk about his bonus. Who cares whose fingerprints were on PAPER in someone's HOME!!!!??? I would say it's either Meyer or someone who was toying with Police to make it look like him.

Another child in her dance class was sexually assaulted a bit later. Someone who came inside the home while the family was out and then waited to assault the girl while the parents were asleep then ran off when the mom heard noises and went to check on her 14 y/o. 14 and 6 age difference is a concern, but maybe not so much a big deal if a serial killer is involved.

I still say it's Meyer, or maybe a group of pervs. He may have been used to get access to JB, but this is a lot. Keep it simple. It wasn't the parents. This was a huge house, not like ones we live in. So a lot can happen there that many of us just don't understand. They came in and took her from her bed. Nobody heard a thing. So.....

 

[whatwhatchickenbutt]

The whole case is strange. I always leaned toward it being someone relating to her pageants. Maybe even a friend of the family. Didn't they recently have a party? That would be the perfect opportunity for the perp to get a good look at the house, locate JonBenet's room, check out the basement, etc. I wonder if any of the guests asked for a tour or helped themselves to wandering around the house.

With the Ranson note it is very strange. It seems like a botched kidnapping and I think the killer originally was trying to get rid of the body, but got spooked and fled or was unable to get her body out of the basement window, etc. I wonder how long it is estimated that it took to write out the ransom note. I don't think the family is involved but agree some stuff is very weird or off.

Also wasn't the ransom her father's exact promotion or Christmas bonus amount? Further leading me to believe it is someone close to them. Maybe someone from Dad's work?

The neighbor's boarder stopped by unannounced and was asked to stay to eat before leaving. What a great way to swipe pens and pads from the home. And check out which windows were open bc of the lights. He was staying in the basement of the home next door - the Ramsey's dog stayed at the couple's home who he rented from - so he knew when theyd be home or out. He also most likely had a key rhat was given to the family he was renting from. The first one disappeared and Patsy had to replace it. He was in debt, and either tried to kidnap her - but didn't realize how hard it is to do so with a live child - and she may have come to. She may have bumped her head on something. Sexual assault could have been the motive. He was also in debt. I believe he either hurt her mistakenly - or she woke up - and he started beating her so badly he screwed up. Then staged the scene after panicking or decided to go ahead and assault her.

Another S/A similar to hers happened to another one of her dance classmates. Same M/O - intruder waits in empty home, assaults while parents are asleep - but mom interrupts. Sex pattern the same.

 

[whatwhatchickenbutt]

It's pretty fascinating yet frightening as someone that used to be a huge Germaphobe as a kid... I am a bit skeptical about it just because this was a girl that was home in her nightclothes in bed and we don't know if her underwear was even brandnew straight from the pack (unless I missed it). If she just came from a crowded area, festival, or Disney World maybe I could see it. I wonder if the family had a maid or nanny situation that folded her laundry? That would make more sense to me than someone that randomly came into contact with her or touched something that she came into contact with. I did find an interesting article on the subject that mentions JonBenet's case.

"Touch DNA is also central to the murder case of Colorado toddler JonBenet Ramsey. Thanks to joint reporting by Denver’s 9News and the Boulder Daily Camera, current Boulder County district attorney Stan Garnett announced three weeks ago that he is reopening the DNA portion of the investigation initially conducted by his predecessor, Mary Lacy. In 2008, she concluded in a letter exonerating the Ramsey family that an unknown male’s DNA on JonBenet’s underwear must belong to the killer because no innocent explanation existed for its presence." ‘Touch DNA’ Evidence Can Lead to Convictions for Innocent People | National Review

In my personal opinion I can see how DNA can be transfered like this but am skeptical because of not hearing about it widespread in other murder cases. If it was that common to be covered in others DNA constantly then wouldn't DNA evidence not be as credible as it is in court?

Also the placement of the DNA inside the little girls underwear where a possible vaginal injury was noted during her autopsy. Sorry I am a bit skeptical. That article is really interesting if you get a chance to read it.

It's possible she was not sexually assaulted, that she woke up after being stunned with a stun gun and there was a tussel of sorts where she did hit her head. Or he struck her. And because she knew him, he used the ligatures to make sure she was really dead. I still think Meyer was involved whether as mastermind trying to get money or himself personally.

 

[UKGuy]

Respectfully, our US mental health system may be different from where you live. That is to say, we barely have mental health services here, no joke. I work with foster kids, so I’m pretty familiar with mental health treatment and criminal charges against children. Are you saying by the above quote that the parents may have been told BR was violent and would kill JonBenet? There is no “medical detention” in the US for a 9-year-old who accidentally kills his sister.

It is my educated opinion that BR would never have been taken away from his parents for any reason, especially if they said it was an accident. There would be some small chance if he killed another child, but if his parents defended and lied for him for killing his sister, a young boy would not be institutionalized in the US.

I really appreciate your perspective because I know many people agree with you and they think this is why BDI and his parents covered it up. I still don’t understand, but I would like to understand what drove the insane coverup because BDI makes some sense to me. Thank you.

Tower,

Respectfully, our US mental health system may be different from where you live. That is to say, we barely have mental health services here, no joke. I work with foster kids, so I’m pretty familiar with mental health treatment and criminal charges against children. Are you saying by the above quote that the parents may have been told BR was violent and would kill JonBenet? There is no “medical detention” in the US for a 9-year-old who accidentally kills his sister.

OK, but there would definitely be some kind of medical intervention, Colorado State has BR and other children's privacy and safety to consider.

Personally I reckon there had been some kind of intervention as both children were in therapy prior to JonBenet's death. The parents may have been advised to monitor and avoid JonBenet being placed in an unprotected situation.

Consider Count IV, a True Bill:

COUNT IV
On or about December 25, and December 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey (or alternately, Patricia Paugh Ramsey) did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen.

As to Count IV, child abuse resulting in death:

A TRUE BILL

i.e. the GJ apparently were aware that JonBenet had been left in a position where she could be injured?

So BR may not be institutionalized but his activities could be constrained by State statute, including that of specified therapy, etc.

I really appreciate your perspective because I know many people agree with you and they think this is why BDI and his parents covered it up. I still don’t understand, but I would like to understand what drove the insane coverup because BDI makes some sense to me. Thank you.

Don't worry most folks don't understand, it's a difficult journey from IDI to BDI. I myself was JDI to begin with, and I know of countless others, who once they reviewed the evidence critically, recognized without knowing every detail, that the case can only be BDI, give the available evidence.

The method is from one of Sherlock Holmes' books

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

what drove the insane coverup because BDI makes some sense to me. Thank you.

More than likely because both parents got some parenting things wrong, and this could be demonstrated, also with JonBenet gone, they then did not want to lose Burke, especially Patsy, look at what she did in the wine-cellar!

So the Wine-Cellar staging was basically, the last roll of the dice for the Ramsey's along with phoning their friends over to mess up the forensics, etc.

Bottom line is it all worked out for them, BPD screwed up the initial investigation, the rest is history.

Remember the Ramsey's with their wealth and connections thought they could confidently manage events, etc, they never bargained on the media circus and the case going worldwide!

.

 

[icedtea4me]

The neighbor's boarder stopped by unannounced and was asked to stay to eat before leaving. What a great way to swipe pens and pads from the home. And check out which windows were open bc of the lights. He was staying in the basement of the home next door - the Ramsey's dog stayed at the couple's home who he rented from - so he knew when theyd be home or out. He also most likely had a key rhat was given to the family he was renting from. The first one disappeared and Patsy had to replace it. He was in debt, and either tried to kidnap her - but didn't realize how hard it is to do so with a live child - and she may have come to. She may have bumped her head on something. Sexual assault could have been the motive. He was also in debt. I believe he either hurt her mistakenly - or she woke up - and he started beating her so badly he screwed up. Then staged the scene after panicking or decided to go ahead and assault her.

Another S/A similar to hers happened to another one of her dance classmates. Same M/O - intruder waits in empty home, assaults while parents are asleep - but mom interrupts. Sex pattern the same.

*heavy sigh*

Glenn Meyer's own son had been murdered in Boston in June 1996.

 

[InstantProof]

The first several years that this case was big news I ignored it. It seemed to me like the general public saw the beauty pageant photos and unfairly decided to blame the parents. The first TV special I ever watched about it was the Lou Smit intruder theory. I wasn't really convinced by his presentation, and it make me curious to find out more about the case. Watching interviews and reading transcripts, I could see why the parents were the #1 suspects. All I get from them is distancing and attempts to muddy and confuse everything.
I can't remember who I suspected first but I did eventually end up suspecting Burke. To be honest I think the best thing going for him as a suspect is that it makes for an easier explanation for the parents' actions and the failure to prosecute. But I always read the scene as one parent trying to manipulate the other, rather than them working together, so I've drifted more towards PDI recently.

 

[rojnish]

The whole case is strange. I always leaned toward it being someone relating to her pageants. Maybe even a friend of the family. Didn't they recently have a party? That would be the perfect opportunity for the perp to get a good look at the house, locate JonBenet's room, check out the basement, etc. I wonder if any of the guests asked for a tour or helped themselves to wandering around the house.

With the Ranson note it is very strange. It seems like a botched kidnapping and I think the killer originally was trying to get rid of the body, but got spooked and fled or was unable to get her body out of the basement window, etc. I wonder how long it is estimated that it took to write out the ransom note. I don't think the family is involved but agree some stuff is very weird or off.

Also wasn't the ransom her father's exact promotion or Christmas bonus amount? Further leading me to believe it is someone close to them. Maybe someone from Dad's work?

 

[rojnish]

I would like to hear more about the neighbor's boarder. I have read much on this case but I have no awareness of that person. That said, I am offering my theory which is not cut-pasted from another thread on this site:

Here is my long-held theory. JBR was a player in the child pageant world. There was reportedly thousands and thousands of dollars of pageant clothing, and some of PR's friends were becoming increasingly concerned about her investment in JBR's pageant success. Remember, PR and her sister were both "pageant queens" so this was a long-held family culture. These things can get out of hand as evidenced by the Texas Cheerleader Mom, Dance Moms, and Alana "Honey BooBoo" Thompson's Toddlers & Tiaras. It is important to stand out in the field, and one way to do that would be a publicity stunt (e.g., Jussie Smolet). Based on experiences of her friend William McReynolds aka "Santa Claus" who had a 9-year old daughter kidnapped on Christmas eve 1974, he helped Patsy stage a kidnapping for JBR. This seemingly harmless stunt would make national news and catapult JBR to stardom. I believe McReynolds hired someone, perhaps Michael Helgoth who was identified by Investigator Ollie Gray, to perform the caper. Helgoth reportedly told someone he stood to make "about 60K" (about half of $118K ransom request) for a job he had coming up. McReynolds was familiar with the house, including the basement which he reportedly toured with JBR during a house party shortly before the event. I imagine McReynolds let Helgoth into the house while the Ramsey's were at their friends' holiday party. I'm not sure about the ransom note, but perhaps Helgoth copied a note left by PR, or perhaps she wrote it ahead of time. Helgoth reportedly had a drug habit and perhaps took drugs that night, maybe even while he waited in the house, which likely affected his judgment. Helgoth also reportedly said he was interested to know what it would feel like to crack a skull. Helgoth was also alleged to have molested his girlfriend's daughter. I don't believe PR ever intended harm to come to her child, and JR likely just went along with PR's crazy scheme. This scenario would explain the Ramsey's strange behavior including: immediately calling cops, friends, etc. when the note clearly said they were being watched and those actions would ensure JBR's death, ignoring the time window of the expected phone call, arranging to leave town shortly after JBR's body was discovered, lawyering up, JR starting his search in the basement as opposed to JBR's room, etc. I reject the "cover up for BR" theory as I don't believe a parent would be able to mutilate one child's body to protect another, especially for an accidental death caused by an "unchargeable" 9 year old. That same holds for the "cover up for PR" theory. My idea bridges the gap between the "insider" and the "intruder" theories. I welcome challenges and questions but hope to avoid baseless criticism. For those who read to the end, thanks for listening.

 

[Nc49er]

Not sure if this is the correct page to ask this but here goes.
Did the police ever say or did anyone find out if they finger print tested the block of wood that locked the wine celler door?
we know John and Fleet touched the block but if it had other prints on it maybe that could answer some questions.
Plus was it at the very top of the door? maybe to high for a 9 year old to move it around?

 

[UKGuy]

Not sure if this is the correct page to ask this but here goes.
Did the police ever say or did anyone find out if they finger print tested the block of wood that locked the wine celler door?
we know John and Fleet touched the block but if it had other prints on it maybe that could answer some questions.
Plus was it at the very top of the door? maybe to high for a 9 year old to move it around?

Nc49er,
Well I assume it was, but I cannot remember any lab test results being listed.

It's likely JR's unlatching may have rubbed out any previous marks, but who knows?

Also there is dna testing that would have been more productive, i.e. any non-ramsey match with the dna on the size-12's would be a break through?

Here's hoping.

.

 

[anonymiss]

I would like to hear more about the neighbor's boarder. I have read much on this case but I have no awareness of that person. That said, I am offering my theory which is not cut-pasted from another thread on this site:

Here is my long-held theory. JBR was a player in the child pageant world. There was reportedly thousands and thousands of dollars of pageant clothing, and some of PR's friends were becoming increasingly concerned about her investment in JBR's pageant success. Remember, PR and her sister were both "pageant queens" so this was a long-held family culture. These things can get out of hand as evidenced by the Texas Cheerleader Mom, Dance Moms, and Alana "Honey BooBoo" Thompson's Toddlers & Tiaras. It is important to stand out in the field, and one way to do that would be a publicity stunt (e.g., Jussie Smolet). Based on experiences of her friend William McReynolds aka "Santa Claus" who had a 9-year old daughter kidnapped on Christmas eve 1974, he helped Patsy stage a kidnapping for JBR. This seemingly harmless stunt would make national news and catapult JBR to stardom. I believe McReynolds hired someone, perhaps Michael Helgoth who was identified by Investigator Ollie Gray, to perform the caper. Helgoth reportedly told someone he stood to make "about 60K" (about half of $118K ransom request) for a job he had coming up. McReynolds was familiar with the house, including the basement which he reportedly toured with JBR during a house party shortly before the event. I imagine McReynolds let Helgoth into the house while the Ramsey's were at their friends' holiday party. I'm not sure about the ransom note, but perhaps Helgoth copied a note left by PR, or perhaps she wrote it ahead of time. Helgoth reportedly had a drug habit and perhaps took drugs that night, maybe even while he waited in the house, which likely affected his judgment. Helgoth also reportedly said he was interested to know what it would feel like to crack a skull. Helgoth was also alleged to have molested his girlfriend's daughter. I don't believe PR ever intended harm to come to her child, and JR likely just went along with PR's crazy scheme. This scenario would explain the Ramsey's strange behavior including: immediately calling cops, friends, etc. when the note clearly said they were being watched and those actions would ensure JBR's death, ignoring the time window of the expected phone call, arranging to leave town shortly after JBR's body was discovered, lawyering up, JR starting his search in the basement as opposed to JBR's room, etc. I reject the "cover up for BR" theory as I don't believe a parent would be able to mutilate one child's body to protect another, especially for an accidental death caused by an "unchargeable" 9 year old. That same holds for the "cover up for PR" theory. My idea bridges the gap between the "insider" and the "intruder" theories. I welcome challenges and questions but hope to avoid baseless criticism. For those who read to the end, thanks for listening.

Why would PR plan a publicity kidnapping on the night before the family's Christmas trip to Michigan? Why would PR pay such a high amount ($60,000) to Helgoth and McReynolds for a fake kidnapping? If the attempted kidnapping was faked, why wasn't JBR aware of the plan so she would just cooperate and not panic trying to get the rope off her neck? Why would Helgoth kill JBR and not collect the $60,000 fee for a faked kidnapping? Did PR and JR stay in bed while the fake kidnapping was going on and take the chance Burke wouldn't wake up and and see it?

 

[Snapple11Apple]

my personal opinion is that jonbenet heard burke and patsy having pineapple and milk downstairs and wanted to have some. she grabbed one piece and burke had enough and all his jealousy came out and he grabbed something and struck her. she wasn't moving and he didn't know if he was dead so he poked her with his train track ( the marks thought to be a stun gun). patsy screamed and they covered it up along with john.

Except, where does the unknown dna found on her body originate from? If they covered up for BR, they couldn’t possibly have gone out and found bodily fluids from a random stranger, on top of writing that long note, beating her, and strangling her, and setting that whole scene up in just a few hours…? And they checked the dna of anyone they could think of with ties to the family, still no matches have been located. That dna just cannot be explained away imo