The Remains Discovery "Daisy Chain"

  • #41
JWG, if you ever wrote a mystery book, I'd read it. I don't put much weight into the daisy chain theory right now, but you have a knack for shoring the pieces together!

JWG

I echo the comment above. Your theories are the soundest and most logical I have read in this forum. I don't post much, probably because I spend all my time reading. However, I pay especially close attention to what you comment upon.

If there is a daisy chain and I believe there may well be, yours thoughts are extremely plausible. None of the players live in a bubble - of course they have all been talking amongst themselves in the neighbourhood. Do you see any corroboration for the MR's supervisor being a neighbour of the A's? Although I am somewhat sceptical about what LP has to say, I do think he may be the unofficial voice of LE. The timing of some of his opinions leads me to believe he is being encouraged by someone behind the scenes as to what to say and when to say it.

I haven't ever thought that the MR was involved in Caylee's death. However, I did think it possible that his continued and earnest searching maybe because he inadvertently have touched some crucial piece of evidence during his first searches and he was concerned he may be implicated if his fingerprints were discovered.

OT: A very proud moment in your avatar. Is it you?
 
  • #42
I posted the following piece of speculation yesterday evening but it kind of got swamped by a blizzard of other posts. I think it is interesting to stand back and see if we can trace the true "daisy chain" of information that led to the remains discovery, whether it be LP's theory or some other theory.

What follows is my theory - updated since I posted last night.

What we know is Kiomarie was interviewed at nearly 10PM on July 19. Kio grew up on Hopespring drive and her dad still lives there. Kio has a friend named Bailey who also lives on Hopespring very close to the Anthony's. Bailey had already spoken to Brian B. and learned he had spoken to LE about the shovel. So Kio and Brian get to talking about KC, and when Kio heard about the shovel, she starts thinking about the secret hiding area off Suburban. Bailey calls Brian and gets the detective's phone number, gives it to Kio, and Kio calls the detective. :clap:

Neighbors are obviously talking. It probably does not take long for word to spread about Kio's interview and suspicions about the woods off Suburban. Maybe neighbors kind of are convinced that the area is a high-probability area, but are afraid to spend a lot of time searching themselves because 1) they are neighbors and 2) they figure LE will be able to do it. :waitasec:

So LE does an initial search of the accessible areas (some of it was too wet), and they come up empty. TES comes out and searches same area - no luck. Problem is - as we know today - the body was not quite in the spot Kio had pointed out. In fact it was several hundred yards away, up the street close to Hopespring. :bang:

Neighbors though remain convinced that area is a highly probable area. They know of Kio's story. They know of the shovel. They know TES and LE could not get into all areas. They are unconvinced the unsuccessful searches to date have ruled out the area. :snooty:

Now throw into the mix speculation that the MR's supervisor is also a neighbor of the Anthony's. Since neighbor's are talking and still think the body could be found up there, the supervisor speaks to his good buddy the MR and asks him to take a look when he does his route. He may even have assigned him specifically to do that route in August just because he is trusted. An official utility vehicle parked up in that area would not look suspicious. :angel:

So the MR takes a look and finds a suspicious-looking bag. We know he called it in three times, and the bag was not located:

  1. LE first says they searched and cleared the area (as noted above, they cleared an area several hundred yards away).
  2. They go out again (possibly with a dog) and find nothing. Unknown exactly were this was done, but probably still a hundred yards or so away. If one listens to the MR 911 calls, the location description is vague enough to allow LE to miss the spot.
  3. They go out a third and final time. MR points to the area and LE heads back, sees a big rattlesnake, and decides it might be best to come back later. Oh, and by the way, there is loads of garbage back there.
Fay comes in, floods the area, and no searches can be done until early November. Note that rumor has it Kronk was not on that route in Sept., Oct., or Nov., implying to me someone assigned to him that route to check things out. :eek:

This next bit of speculation is going to infuriate a lot of Lee haters here when they read what I am thinking. :scream: (I think Lee is getting a bum rap from the public).

Meantime, Lee, I believe, is not drinking the KC Koolaide the way Cindy is. He knows KC did something. He does not know the details, but has suspicions, and does his best to pull information from KC without raising her ire and having her shut him out. He loved Caylee and wants to know the truth. He gets enough KC code to believe her body is nearby, but again no details. :detective:

Lee becomes aware of Kio's and the neighbor's suspicions. With what KC implied, the general location makes perfect sense. He knows LE and TES searched in that area but maybe they were not in the right spot. Maybe he is involved in lining up other silent searches, including that of the MR, or maybe he just hears about the MR's finding and subsequent failure of LE to locate the body. On the one hand he knows LE and others have searched and declared it clear - should trust that coming from LE, right?? On the other hand, the MR did say he found something. After Fay, this gets filed in the back of his mind.

Meanwhile, Lee loves his mom but feels she is in a deep denial over KC's crime. He knows - feels - KC did something to Caylee. While mom is stuck in the first stage of grief (denial), Lee is entering the second stage (anger). It shows as he tries to protect the parents he loves, and the public backlash is vicious. He starts to drop from public view. He does not want to get caught up in the maelstrom Cindy is creating. :(

In early Nov. TES finally can get out and do a search. But they find nothing and pull out earlier than expected.

Bewildered, Lee talks to the PI working for his parents. I speculate the conversation went something like this:


Lee convinces PI Casey that Caylee is dead and they need to look for a body. So the two PIs hike up there two times to look and video-tape, and PI Casey goes up another two times alone. The information they have is that Caylee's body was found in August, but not recovered. They find nothing. PI Casey calls Lee several times and asks if he can help nail the exact spot down, because they are not seeing anything but thick brush and unrelated trash. Given only 10 minutes of video were recorded, none of the searches may have been very long.

They are very close, but not quite in the right spot, and they fail to locate the remains. They report back to Lee: nothing. :banghead:

Nejame catches wind that Lee sent the PIs up there and he decides he has had enough. Time to bail out. It appears the Anthony's privately think the child is dead but publicly berate LE for not searching for a live Caylee. Well, Lee believes she is dead, and probably George does too, but Cindy won't admit it. He's had enough and resigns. :furious:

At this point Lee is thinking: LE looked several times. TES looked several times. My PI looked several times. No one could find the bag. The only one who ever saw the bag was the MR. In order to put this thing to rest, we need him to look one more time.

Lee gets word back to the supervisor neighbor and tells him the PI's could find nothing. Can we get the MR back out there? So the supervisor reasigns the MR to the route and asks him to see if the bag is still there. The route is scheduled for the 11th of every month, so they have missed the November slot, but he'll be assigned to the route on Dec. 11.

The MR goes back on the route, finds the bag, sees the skull...and Caylee is brought home. :blowkiss:
Now one of the PIs brags to his good buddy LP about the trips they made to that same area and found nothing, and the circus begins again.

The key piece of the above puzzle is confirming or denying a link between the neighbors and the MR. The "supervisor as neighbor" is one possible link. Another possible link is "MR chats up neighbor". But a link needs to exist for the above theory to make sense.

The daisy chain, as I see it, is:

  1. Kio - Bailey - Brian B. - Kio - detective - TES. Failure to find the remains starts a second chain.
  2. Lee - neighbors - supervisor - MR - LE. Failure to find the remains starts a third chain.
  3. TES. Failure to find the remains starts a fourth chain.
  4. Lee - PI - Lee - supervisor - MR. Success.
IMHO :rolleyes:
My personal opinion is that the MR knew exactly where to look. He didn't stumble on this bag as he was out taking a look or a leak. jmo.
How he knew is yet undetermined, but imo he knew exactly where to go.
imo, Casey did tell JB or LA where Caylee was.
imo, there is a link from JB to the MR.
I have thought that LA knew where Caylee was via Casey while she was out on bail the second time, and struggled with what to do with the information, as it was given in confidence, she is his sister, the info would kill his mom as just some of the internal conflict that he could have faced. Add to that some time to process and decide what to do with it, as he can't just leave Caylee out there, and watching his parents falling apart, and knowing this has to come to an end, he tells DC or JB, who tells DC. The link from JB or DC to the MR is unclear, but the supervisor being a neighbor is interesting. However, I don't think LA would tell anyone except JB or DC, and if nothing came from that, he would have told LE eventually. I also think with immunity, he will testify what he knew, and who told him. I believe he will do the right thing.

My theory=Casey-JB-DC-?-supervisor-MR or
Casey-LA-DC-JB-?-MR.
Question-What's in it for MR?
What's in it for the supervisor?
Why would they get involved at all, and not go straight to LE?
Why would the supervisor involve the MR?
Answer-the relationship between ? and the supervisor or the relationship between ? and the MR. yep, jmo fwiw.
I know MR attempted to tell LE in August, however, he could have just gone to them with whatever information he may have learned. He didn't have to go find her himself.
Oh and wasn't he suppose to come out and talk about it after the first of the year? Where is he?
We don't know about ? or who that is, yet.....
 
  • #43
Weren't "familiar place" and "lower left" mentioned to Lee by Casey in one visit? I thought immediately it sounded as if someone were giving directions from a map instead of it being discussion of someone who knew the city well, as they both did. I thought it was quite odd at the time.

Standing in the A fam's backyard...Caylee was found in the "lower left" of the area which was very familiar to both Lee and Casey.


Not being familiar with the area, if a person is standing at the intersection of Suburban looking towards the school, would the spot where Caylee was found be considered "lower left"?
 
  • #44
Not being familiar with the area, if a person is standing at the intersection of Suburban looking towards the school, would the spot where Caylee was found be considered "lower left"?

"Lower" is pretty much meaningless as you are navigating the world by streets (unless you mean near your feet or on the ground).

At the intersection of Suburban/Hopespring facing the school... Caylee would be on the right just ahead of you. Maybe that is "upper right" from that exact location.
 
  • #45
I said months ago that LE really needs to check out the areas where KC hung out in her early years. This was based on my past experience of looking for a missing person. Several times I mentioned Kio probably would know a lot about KC's habits and hangouts.

All I got for that effort on this board is people saying: Don't bring into this any innocent people...:rolleyes: I still think the "friend" who tipped off the P.I.'s is Kio. That is not implicating her. That is saying she was a good resource for KC info. i.e. "comfort zone."


And this is my 2nd post about this:

I think Kronk (MR) saw the the P.I.s and/or psychics entering the woods there and went to do his own investigation.
 
  • #46
Didn't DC make the comment to JH that he "knew Caylee was dead and knew where to find her?" This isn't a statement based on hunches and vague tips. If DC was searching the area based on Kio's statement, MR 911 calls, or because Lee asked him to look around, then he would have never made such a confident, exact statement. Plus, the only place DC searched was very close to the correct spot. I have to believe he had more information from someone that knew more.
 
  • #47
I don't think the "clandestine" element is removed from the picture just because the PI's went to the area in daylight, if clandestine is even the right word. It all depends on what brought them to the area. I can't know that at this point, but don't accept at face value what little has been said by DC so far. Others obviously do, yet question the veracity of what the MM has said publicly so far. I just think it is more likely, at least just as likely, that the MR with no ties to the A family is the one who acted on the "innocent" Kio information in searching in an area he passed by in his work. I think it is more likely that a PI who worked for the defense and then worked for the family would be acting on inside information that the remains in fact were there to be found. I'm fine that other people see it differently and don't agree with me.

I just posted some thoughts on the PI thread that fit better here. I don't know how to shift them to this thread. But, fwiw, I've never believed that Kio or meter man acted alone.
 
  • #48
I'm resorting back to the call that took place between KC and LA on July 26th.. Now that I'm going back and reading this again I have a better understanding with all the recent news dealing with these P.I's possibly ... taking into consideration when MR claims he first called in the tip in August... Shorty after didn't Lee sort of Dissappear? The blue is KC and LA the red are my thoughts.


LEE: Hey Casey are you there

Hey. Yeah I’m here

LEE: Sorry my cell phone reception is terrible

CASEY: It sucks at the house I know


LEE: I still want you to know that you can call me and I’ll try you know get as much out there as I can before anything, what ever dies. I know it s not a good situation , you know what can we do. You know ( What ever dies? Are they refering to Caylee, Maybe KC told LA she knew were Caylee was? )

CASEY: Yeah absolutely

LEE: Um, so do you understand what I was trying to say for that, that you know, you can reach out to them ( Them = P.I's Possible DC & JH?) and they, I know that you said that when we did visitation and I want you to know that you don’t have to necessarily have to put everything through your attorney if you feel like you wanted to speak to them about anything at all, you can still request that he be there, but he doesn’t have to and you don’t have to do that through him

CASEY: Oh I know. But that’s something we had talked about yesterday actually

LEE: Ok good. Do you plan on speaking with any of those guys at all? ( The P.I's?)

CASEY: We’re going to set up a meeting for Monday, Jose was going to think about stuff, how we were going to set things up over the weekend. He was going to be here with me when we bring then in, um, you know and as far as what I answer, how I answer, you know how all that goes down he was going to figure that out this weekend. He was actually going to come up either today or tomorrow and bring a couple of the videos I guess for me to watch from some of the news stuff that’s been going on, I guess some of the talk shows. Just to try to update me on some of the stuff. Plus he wanted me wanted me to get a good laugh. ( Maybe JB was careful as to what KC was allowed to tell the P.I.'s incase they came forward any time in the future?)


LEE: So, is there anything? I know we had spoken before and you understand how all this works, now. but do you have anything that you can, you know, tell me, that would help?
( Is he asking for the location of the body?)


CASEY: There’s nothing I can think of at the moment. I’m actually going to try and get something together, you know today so I can write a couple letters to the family. I’m even going to get with (intelligible) and stuff to see if he does get that directly. But still put out my own specific so if anything happens, if there’s any lapse you still will get what I’m trying to put across too.
( By Lapse does she mean she will fill in the missing info with a 2nd letter sent later?)


LEE: And just remember that if you give it to the attorney…. ( He may not forward the letter if too direct)

CASEY: They can read it and choose whether or not to even fix it which is why I’ll do a secondary letter to make sure it’s direct ]( secondary possibly to LA through mail without Attorney?)
LEE: Perfect I would encourage that 110 percent. So is there anything specifically, I know you’re going to meet with, you know the investigators and everything, you know. Is there anything specifically the details that you want to clarify to me now so that I’m following up on my own leads and my own information, putting the stuff together, you know then I can start working on it now? ]( LA has own leads serperate from everyone else? No kidding huh)

CASEY: Um, at the moment there’s nothing specific or nothing that you know should probably be said here. Um, again I’ll put something together before I see Jose or when I see Jose and you know make sure that I have something also to put out. ( Can’t talk about it now, too risky ) LEE: Right.

CASEY: So that way you can get whatever you like ( Move /take something? )

LEE: Ok. And just so remember when you get to talk to those guys um, you know, you mentioned that you’re going to have your prep and everything with Jose. But remember truth don’t hurt. ( Those guys being the PI’s?)

CASEY: I know but there are some things that I have told them that were misconstrued and not used to their benefit. I gave them the same resources that I gave you and you found out a hundred more things then they did. And they were given the same information. So it’s just about the approach I guess and using the resources to their full extent. Again I’m everybody’s biggest resource; you have said that, Jose has said that, mom and dad have said that.


LEE: Right but at the same time we still we just need to figure out how we can be clear on what ever we’re giving to them, so even if we have to you know speak very direct or we can’t really speak in generalities with them, with anybody is what I’m finding out . Or if we tell them I’m not completely sure on the spelling or I’m not completely sure on this or that. They take everything exactly up front to the ‘T’. Exactly how you provide it. So if it’s off at all they don’t even think to look in any other areas ….( LA explaining that he and KC need to be on the same page as to what she is going to tell them,etc. )

CASEY: That’s why I gave them things multiple times. Each officer I gave the same information at least two or three times, I’ve done the same thing with you, the same thing with mom, the same thing with Jose. Everyone has the same information, same spelling, same names. None of that has altered because that’s it


LEE: What do you think, where do you think. You think Caylee’s ok right now? ( Notice he first ask “what then where do you think.” He realizes he’s about to have his sister answer an incriminating question so he then says is she okay?)

KC: My gut feeling? As mom asked me yesterday and even Jose asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning that I got through the court, um in my gut she’s still ok. And it still feels like she’s close to home. ( She follows up with she’s okay - and then gives a LOCATION!)

LEE: Ok ( Now he know’s where to start looking )

How do I snip? Anyway, "before any thing dies"? Say what? Who talks like that? Does he mean his sister, KC (death penalty):furious:? And what's that about JB bringing tapes for KC to view so that she could get a laugh? That does it - diabolical, just diabolical.
 
  • #49
LEE: I still want you to know that you can call me and I’ll try you know get as much out there as I can before anything, what ever dies. I know it s not a good situation , you know what can we do.


IMO, here he is speaking of the opportunity to recover Caylee alive from whomever is holding her. The death of the hope for a safe return.
 
  • #50
Good Question- why was the meter reader in that spot to begin with- theres no water meters in those woods or houses on that block- Is there?
 
  • #51
JWG, your ability to develop theories and link events together is amazing. You blow me away every time. I think what you've laid out above is pretty plausible. But would you (or someone else who gets it) point out to me what would be the reason MR's supervisor would ask MR to check into this? I'm asking because that's the only part of your theory where I don't exactly see how the pieces could fit.

The only reason the supervisor would have been involved, IMHO, is if he was a neighbor or lived in the neighborhood. That's the rumor, but nothing more at this time.

Not sure what other connection the MR would possibly have to the area and the case, unless he was part of the protester crowd as someone guessed.

He initially found the bag and called it in on Aug 11. Then he found it again and called it in on Dec. 11. That tells me the route for that neighborhood gets done on or about the 11th of each month.

If the route is read around the 11th, then when the route was done in July there was nothing to discuss with any neighbors he might encounter, because the case had not yet broken. He might have discussed it with one or two neighbors as he did the route in August, then got real lucky in finding it. I guess that's possible.

I find it interesting, though, that he apparently did not do the route in Sep., Oct., or Nov.
 
  • #52
Good Question- why was the meter reader in that spot to begin with- theres no water meters in those woods or houses on that block- Is there?

I've asked this a few times. I don't think we're ever going to get an answer until Mr. Kronk comes out and explains it all to us clearly and in small words so we'll all be sure to understand.

I'm really getting sick of the whole flipping bunch of 'em.
 
  • #53
JWG

I echo the comment above. Your theories are the soundest and most logical I have read in this forum. I don't post much, probably because I spend all my time reading. However, I pay especially close attention to what you comment upon.

If there is a daisy chain and I believe there may well be, yours thoughts are extremely plausible. None of the players live in a bubble - of course they have all been talking amongst themselves in the neighbourhood. Do you see any corroboration for the MR's supervisor being a neighbour of the A's? Although I am somewhat sceptical about what LP has to say, I do think he may be the unofficial voice of LE. The timing of some of his opinions leads me to believe he is being encouraged by someone behind the scenes as to what to say and when to say it.

I haven't ever thought that the MR was involved in Caylee's death. However, I did think it possible that his continued and earnest searching maybe because he inadvertently have touched some crucial piece of evidence during his first searches and he was concerned he may be implicated if his fingerprints were discovered.

OT: A very proud moment in your avatar. Is it you?

Thanks Gailey. I have not been able to determine whether the supervisor is a neighbor or not, because I have not seen his name anywhere. If I had his name I could compare it against the homeowners in the vicinity.

Regarding LP, I doubt LE would feed him information, but he has made enough connections that he probably gets bits and pieces we do not, and he develops some of his own theories. If we (WSers) heard the same bits and pieces we'd probably come up with a dozen different theories ourselves, all of them just as interesting as LP's. :rolleyes:

No, the avatar is not me. :wink:
 
  • #54
The more I think about this, the more I think someone led the MR to that area- if his area was the Anthony development area in August, what possessed him to go to Surbanban Dr and look for Caylee- theres No houses on that road from what I understand- did he just decide to go look in the woods while reading meters? I'm baffled
 
  • #55
I just realized theres a "meter reader thread"- I think my above post should of went in that thread- but I see theres talk of the MR in this thread also-
 
  • #56
The only reason the supervisor would have been involved, IMHO, is if he was a neighbor or lived in the neighborhood. That's the rumor, but nothing more at this time.

Not sure what other connection the MR would possibly have to the area and the case, unless he was part of the protester crowd as someone guessed.

He initially found the bag and called it in on Aug 11. Then he found it again and called it in on Dec. 11. That tells me the route for that neighborhood gets done on or about the 11th of each month.

If the route is read around the 11th, then when the route was done in July there was nothing to discuss with any neighbors he might encounter, because the case had not yet broken. He might have discussed it with one or two neighbors as he did the route in August, then got real lucky in finding it. I guess that's possible.

I find it interesting, though, that he apparently did not do the route in Sep., Oct., or Nov.


Initially, the news of the MR finding Caylee seemed to be a lucky coincidence. However, now I just don't think so. There are too many connections and too many searches in the exact location.
 
  • #57
Thanks Gailey. I have not been able to determine whether the supervisor is a neighbor or not, because I have not seen his name anywhere. If I had his name I could compare it against the homeowners in the vicinity.

Regarding LP, I doubt LE would feed him information, but he has made enough connections that he probably gets bits and pieces we do not, and he develops some of his own theories. If we (WSers) heard the same bits and pieces we'd probably come up with a dozen different theories ourselves, all of them just as interesting as LP's. :rolleyes:

No, the avatar is not me. :wink:

Yeah, you are probably right about LP. Don't you think it's strange though that he wasn't reporting much earlier that very inflamatory phone call he had he had with JH. I mean in terms of the NG show, that phone call really was a bombshell. Why did he keep it under his hat until now?

BTW I'm pretty much with you as to Lee's involvement. I do think he may have been involved with or at least had knowledge of Casey's work status, I've never believed she didn't work at all for 2 years; rather that it was a "shady" type of work. I've thought this from the get go about Lee, but for the life of me I don't remember what it was that lead me to believe that. What do you think?
 
  • #58
The more I think about this, the more I think someone led the MR to that area- if his area was the Anthony development area in August, what possessed him to go to Surbanban Dr and look for Caylee- theres No houses on that road from what I understand- did he just decide to go look in the woods while reading meters? I'm baffled

I think the MR knew where to look, too. The area was supposedly filled with trash and trash bags, why would this particular bag be suspicious unless the MR knew where to look?
 
  • #59
JEG-- On your original theory, very good, and you had me till the "Lee's neighbor supervisor". I dont think the supervisor was involved in placing the meter reader there. Im just not sure what to think of the meter reader yet. Hopefully it will all come out in the wash.
 
  • #60
Sry, I mean to say To JWG- it wont let me edit my spelling..
 

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