The Remains Site-Revisited

[Harmony 2]

yes, there is a slight slope downward from the curb line going back toward the woods.

There were lots of claims made that the remains site was waist deep in water and that was why the body was never seen/found/smelled there, that the area was not searched due to this water, etc. I got a lot of flack here for questioning that. But I couldn't see how the water could get waist deep at the remains site, just from looking at the site itself, I didn't see any deep depression there that could hold that much water, unless I was like totally looking in the wrong place, and judging from landmarks, etc, I didn't think I was looking in the wrong place.

The analysis of the water levels which was just released, if I'm reading it right, seems to say the remains site (Area A where the skull and lots of remains were for example) would not have been under more than 6 inches of water even when the water was at its highest point briefly (there would have been water briefly.) This makes sense to me because just going from what the area looked like, just visually it looks like if the water got much deeper than that in that place it would run off into the street.

At least I'd never heard reports that the street was flooded out/impassable or that the surrounding houses were flooded or anything like that, so I always doubted the "waist high" and similar claims about the water, and of course whatever amount of water there was wouldn't have been there the whole time.

I know what you mean, I think I recall some pictures too where you see investigators in a deeper area, IIRC.

Here are some excellent photos by BondJamesBond showing the sloping and topography:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3377105&postcount=610"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Crime Scene Photos #3[/ame]

These links may also help to visualize the depth and sloping of the site:

3D animation of remains site

http://vodpod.com/watch/2019345-caylee-anthony-crime-scene-animation

3D side view of remains site
http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20318602/detail.html

Computer 3D model of areas at remains site
Photos 5 thru 18
http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/20316093/detail.html

 

[marspiter]

To me (I'm no expert on water levels by any means) this study seems to be looking at standing water. The problem I see with Florida (my parents and brother live there) is that the area is not that far above sea level for one. Hence why many homes don't have basements. The other thing is that standing water to me isn't taking into account "soggy ground".

Here in NC we have been getting plenty of rain all year (been in a drought for about the last 5 years). The problem isn't that there is a ton of standing water but that the ground is so inundated with moister that anywhere you step your feet sink into the mud. It's so bad that the latest small wind storm we had is knocking down trees left and right by completely up rooting the tree because the ground is so wet and loose from all the rain. The land slides have been getting pretty bad too. Like the solid rock face that took out I-40 going to Tenn.

So yes according to this test as I'm reading it the area wasn't submerged in standing water the entire time, but my question would be how "soggy" was the ground in the area. Right now I could walk crossed our yard just fine but the lower field below the house I'd want my boots on caused I'd sink a good 4 inches as water tends to pool down there and the ground is "soggy" and muddy for a long time after the rain has stopped.

 

[BeanE]

Okay I see in this thread references from level with curbline to waist deep on a grown man. :banghead:

Surely there's a single number or small range somewhere that is the factual, actual difference between the elevation at, e.g., a point somewhere curbline to treeline, and the spot on the ground where Caylee's skull was found Dec 11?

I'm happy to dig for this info if noone has it handy.

TIA

 

[Harmony 2]

Okay I see in this thread references from level with curbline to waist deep on a grown man. :banghead:

Surely there's a single number or small range somewhere that is the factual, actual difference between the elevation at, e.g., a point somewhere curbline to treeline, and the spot on the ground where Caylee's skull was found Dec 11?

I'm happy to dig for this info if noone has it handy.

TIA

Grassy area by Suburban street level = 82.41

Area A= 80.0 sloping down to area B= 79.5

 

[BeanE]

Grassy area by Suburban street level = 82.41

Area A= 80.0 sloping down to area B= 79.5

Thank you so much, Harmony. And thank you for your research, and the links and info you've been providing. Very helpful.

:blowkiss:

 

[Leila]

My biggest problem with these numbers is that they could not replicate hurricane Faye. I would like to know if their computer program can adjust the model for a hurricane, maybe they can write in data from past hurricanes to get this more specific information.

Although I'm not from Florida, I have a number of friends who live there and all have said that Hurricane Fay dumped a lot of water and subsequent rainfall left a lot of standing water that stayed for months. This jibes with the reports from residents who live on or near Suburban who said that the area where Caylee's remains were found was under water until about three weeks prior to December 11th. It also jibes with Tim Miller, who said they almost lost an ATV in the water in that area and called off further searching until the water subsided.

 

[cyberborg]

I know that they had the blue canopy over the remains when they were processing the site and it was tilted at a good 30+ degree angle.

I am not so sure seeing the remains site for real, after the fact is too helpful because they dragged a lot of vegetation and soil out for processing and then dumped it back.

 

[notthatsmart]

I just wonder about a professional look at what was there Dec 11th. I hear people say all the time that she threw the body in there. And I wonder if there is any indication that the perp entered the woods near the end of the fence there. Or 80 ft past that pole. I wonder if the animals scattered the bones or the water scattered the bones. I found it very disturbing that Caylee's lil skull was standing upright and facing North West. That would have held the mandible together, not sure why they say it was the duct tape. That reverse vegetation thing is disturbing too. I saw no comment about it in the botonist report, but you can clearly see it in the pic of the laundry bag.

 

[Trapshooter]

I don't recall reading about Caylee's skull standing upright and facing Northwest? Could you provide a link to that please notthatsmart? Thanks!

 

[Just Jayla]

I just wonder about a professional look at what was there Dec 11th. I hear people say all the time that she threw the body in there. And I wonder if there is any indication that the perp entered the woods near the end of the fence there. Or 80 ft past that pole. I wonder if the animals scattered the bones or the water scattered the bones. I found it very disturbing that Caylee's lil skull was standing upright and facing North West. That would have held the mandible together, not sure why they say it was the duct tape. That reverse vegetation thing is disturbing too. I saw no comment about it in the botonist report, but you can clearly see it in the pic of the laundry bag.

I think I agree that she did not throw Caylee in there-I don;t think she could throw her in that far-She either walked in perpendicular to Suburban (unlikely to me because of the foliage), or took the fence path in.
If she took the fence path in, the likelihood is better that she chose a particular spot to place her-She could have placed her there because the downed tree would block other views, or maybe she saw the area was depressed or had a little standing water in it.
I know you're not certain who the killer is, notthatsmart, but we can agree that KC probably did not shot put the bag.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Scull standing upright facing NW??? What????? Look, there are people who are able to visualize because they have been there. THere are people who must rely on eyewitness accounts, and maps. The property is completely unsuitable for construction because of its elevation and drainage patterns. Water drains from surrounding areas into that area. Wet, soggy, ground is not the same as measuring water on concrete. The only reference to NW I could see is from a survey standpont which always references a true north. Here is a link to the site. The skull was found in section A. The map shows true North. There is no description that I can find showing the skull was facing NW and upright. Perhaps there is a reference to the bag position, hence the bag that contained the skull facing a certain direction but other than that I am lost.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6440.6475.pdf

 

[Searchfortruth]

I doubt the skull was standing upright, and even if it was, that alone would not secure the mandible to the maxilla after months of decomposition. The duct tape is what kept those bones together, just as it kept Caylee's hair in place. Bones are going to detach at the joints during decomposition, the positioning of the body does not negate this process.

It is evident that animals scattered the bones. The bones were in different areas with the anatomical regions centered in the same areas. The torso was found in one area, the lower extremities in another. This means the animals scattered the bones while all of the joints had not completely disarticulated (come apart).

 

[sumbunny]

The skull detached from the spine obviously the duct tape held the mandible and maxilla together nts....unless of course caylee suffered decapotation prior to decomposition. IOW, it most definately was the duct tape holding the jaw to the skull. ~gasp~ I hate typing about poor caylee that way.

 

[Jolynna]

I just wonder about a professional look at what was there Dec 11th. I hear people say all the time that she threw the body in there. And I wonder if there is any indication that the perp entered the woods near the end of the fence there. Or 80 ft past that pole. I wonder if the animals scattered the bones or the water scattered the bones. I found it very disturbing that Caylee's lil skull was standing upright and facing North West. That would have held the mandible together, not sure why they say it was the duct tape. That reverse vegetation thing is disturbing too. I saw no comment about it in the botonist report, but you can clearly see it in the pic of the laundry bag.

In response to the parts I bolded...

Here's what the professionals had to say about what was on Suburban on December 11...

From the autopsy report (http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/0619/19801946.pdf): Animal damage was noted as chewing with punctures, pits and ragged borders...Page 20. Pages 25-27 discuss bone dispersement and what the pattern of dispersement means.

 

[BeanE]

For reference on Caylee's skull being upright and the direction in which it was facing:

The scene was located in a wooded area along the south side of Suburban Drive,east of the intersection of Hopespring Drive/Suburban Drive. The area was dense with trees, vines, and vegetation that were present along the west and east sides of a path that curved southwest and down into the wooded area. A rotting log was observed along the west side of the path, partially covered with vegetation. Directly west of the northwest corner area of the log was a human skull. The skull was upright on the ground, partially hidden by vegetation, with the front facing northwest towards hanging vines.

Forensic Entymology report:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/12/01/forensic.entemology.pdf

Of course, we can have a lively discussion about whether Caylee's skull had been upright for some time, or whether it dropped or rolled to that position, but I really don't want to go there...

 

[Harmony 2]

Scull standing upright facing NW??? What????? Look, there are people who are able to visualize because they have been there. THere are people who must rely on eyewitness accounts, and maps. The property is completely unsuitable for construction because of its elevation and drainage patterns. Water drains from surrounding areas into that area. Wet, soggy, ground is not the same as measuring water on concrete. The only reference to NW I could see is from a survey standpont which always references a true north. Here is a link to the site. The skull was found in section A. The map shows true North. There is no description that I can find showing the skull was facing NW and upright. Perhaps there is a reference to the bag position, hence the bag that contained the skull facing a certain direction but other than that I am lost.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/6440.6475.pdf

I have the document saved on a flashdrive so I cannot supply a link but I can try to locate it.

FWIW, the information is on page 74 of 122 or handwritten pg. 3415
ETA: to add the link

http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html

Ooops sorry BeanE I was working on my post and did not see yours. Sorry for the duplicate.

 

[seagull65]

Okay I see in this thread references from level with curbline to waist deep on a grown man. :banghead:

Surely there's a single number or small range somewhere that is the factual, actual difference between the elevation at, e.g., a point somewhere curbline to treeline, and the spot on the ground where Caylee's skull was found Dec 11?

I'm happy to dig for this info if noone has it handy.

TIA

No need to search BeanE. The water level study in the doc dump shows what the actual water levels were at Area A (where skull and most of the remains were) throughout the time frame, taking the elevation into account.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Thank you for the links. I tried to find that reference and was unable to do so. That will teach me not to post before I do my research. Credit to BeanE and Harmony. IMO an upright skull means one that is not facing down. So.....body was not perpendicular to the road? Am I right? THis would perhaps support the theory of one dragging the bag down the slope, perhaps using shrubbery to attempt to obscure it...as opposed to a quick toss and run. I also wonder if the rainfall would "float" a portion of the laundry bag. The entire bag could later be covered by water, but only AFTER the water levels rose high enough or the bag becoming saturated.

 

[BeanE]

No need to search BeanE. The water level study in the doc dump shows what the actual water levels were at Area A (where skull and most of the remains were) throughout the time frame, taking the elevation into account.

Thanks, seagull. You misunderstood my post somehow. I wasn't looking for water levels. I was looking for elevation. Harmony provided me the info.

 

[Trapshooter]

Thank you BeanE for the document regarding the skull. I do apologize, I couldn't recall reading this.