The Rest of the Story...

[Glow]

You're welcome. You have a good point and that's why I said if you believe only half of what you hear from those who have left. Too many are saying the same things. The lost boys really bother me. I'm sure it's not all bad but there is enough wrong that it needs correcting.

I'm glad they say the underage marriages will stop but with only needing the parents' signatures to continue it, I don't believe it really will stop. Things will go on as usual but under the watchful eye of the state. Maybe this will prevent some abuse. I hope so.

Yes, the lost boys really bother me too. I happen to have 3 boys and they are my heartbeats. On the other hand I remember reading an article that was entitiled The State of Texas Creates It's Own Lost Boys" it was about the state of foster care in Texas and how the boys are turned out of care at 18 with no real training and no resources.

That is a fact that can be looked up just as easily as the story of the lost boys of FLDS can. Do you think that fact will make even one person that is in favor of the raid on FLDS take note? It wont. And that is what puzzles me here. Its like the facts dont matter.

 

[SewingDeb]

That's true of most states and foster care. At 18 they are on their own. Some states are changing that, of which I am glad.

---------
You said:

Do you think that fact will make even one person that is in favor of the raid on FLDS take note? It wont. And that is what puzzles me here. Its like the facts dont matter.
__________________


For the lost boys, 18 is not the magic number. Many of these boys are much younger and very naive...something I don't think can be said of most foster children.

The facts do matter...the lost boys don't even have a birth certificate or social security number. That makes it hard to try to get further schooling or a job. Foster kids are at an advantage there.

 

[Glow]

Glow I think people can't separate the FLDS from Warren Jeffs the Sex Offender. They see the FLDS as being his project where the women and children are kept barefoot and brainwashed so to speak.

It may not be right but even the mere suggestion that any of the parents tolerated Jeffs molesting their daughter or marrying her off when she was a mere kid to some old geezer really hits a sore spot for a lot of people.

It shouldn't have to be a them or us situation where the families have to repudiate their religion to live their lives safely with their children but the FLDS need to disassociate from Jeffs because that man is trouble.

I understand the point you're making about the State of Texas only raising the age that a girl could marry from fourteen to sixteen in 2005 so now that the FLDS have brought themselves into line with Texas that aspect should at least be easier to monitor.

Gosh Blaize you put things so well....I wish I could do that. I think we will see the FLDS move away from Jeffs. That is a good thing.

I still am intersted in why so many people seem SO shocked and vitrolic towards Jeffs and act like what he has done justifies the actions of CPS.

Bernard Law was an Arch Bishop in the Catholic church. He had to resign because of his knowledge that priests under him were molesting young children while he did nothing. He only reassigned the priests if there was a complaint, giving them a new area in which to molest. Some of these priests molested children for over 23 years. Law was finally forced to resign his post in 2002. He was merely reassigned to an administrative post within the governing body of the Holy See in the Vatican. In 2005 he was selected to conductone of the funeral masses for the Pope. Why werent people hopping mad about that?

If you are like me, I barely remember the name of Bernard Law even though it made the news at the time. But you take men like that crazy whacked out David Koresh or this one, Warren Jeffs and people go nuts. If the crime here is the molestation of children then why are people not equally upset on behalf of ALL children. Whether they are Catholic or FLDS or Branch Davidian?

 

[Glow]

That's true of most states and foster care. At 18 they are on their own. Some states are changing that, of which I am glad.

---------
You said:

Do you think that fact will make even one person that is in favor of the raid on FLDS take note? It wont. And that is what puzzles me here. Its like the facts dont matter.
__________________


For the lost boys, 18 is not the magic number. Many of these boys are much younger and very naive...something I don't think can be said of most foster children.

The facts do matter...the lost boys don't even have a birth certificate or social security number. That makes it hard to try to get further schooling or a job. Foster kids are at an advantage there.

I agree with you SewingDeb. ALL boys should get the start they need and I too am glad that states are working to change that. It is ironic though that the FLDS lost boys are considered more "innocent" to the ways of the world than foster kids and yet that is exactly where some people (Im not saying you, I am speaking in generalities here) would like to put the FLDS boys and girls?

 

[SewingDeb]

It is ironic, Glow.

 

[southcitymom]

I think the "hatred" comes from what we have heard from those who escaped the FLDS. If even half of what they say is true, and I believe it is, evil permeates the air on their compounds.

It's not just polygamy or being different. They have an evil leader who has led them down the wrong path for a long time.

My biggest question about this viewpoint is that the same people that call all these women brainwashed liars over and over again are happy to believe that the escaped women are truthful.

I guess I just see so many shades of grey. The woman who left are disgruntled. I'm sure some of what they say is true, but it's not such a stretch to think they may want to harm the leader the left and use their stories to do that.

Jeffs is, without question, a nutter and the best thing that has come from this raid is the flux in leadership positions at the ranch.

But the hatred was consistantly thrown not just at Jeffs but at these women, who we may now fairly deduce were abused by CPS just like they were abused by Jeffs. It still doesn't make sense to me.

I have read a lot on this case and on the FLDS in general. I cannot fairly come to the conclusion that their way of life was permeated with evil. There's a lot about their way of life that I, frankly, find enviable and worthwhile.

 

[southcitymom]

Glow I think people can't separate the FLDS from Warren Jeffs the Sex Offender. They see the FLDS as being his project where the women and children are kept barefoot and brainwashed so to speak.

It may not be right but even the mere suggestion that any of the parents tolerated Jeffs molesting their daughter or marrying her off when she was a mere kid to some old geezer really hits a sore spot for a lot of people.

It shouldn't have to be a them or us situation where the families have to repudiate their religion to live their lives safely with their children but the FLDS need to disassociate from Jeffs because that man is trouble.

I understand the point you're making about the State of Texas only raising the age that a girl could marry from fourteen to sixteen in 2005 so now that the FLDS have brought themselves into line with Texas that aspect should at least be easier to monitor.

Great post, blaize. I think you sum it up very well.

 

[SewingDeb]

SCM, I've never felt hatred for the women, or any of the FLDS. I am angered that anyone has to be raised this way and that their choices in life are taken away from them. They are not even allowed to choose who they marry. They certainly don't have the freedom of religion that the rest of us have.

Do you really see a new leader on the horizon? I think the loyalty to Jeffs will withstand all of this. They truly think he speaks for God.

They are being led by a sociopath, imo, and nothing but evil can come from that. Yes, some parts of their lives are enviable if you have ever wished for a simpler way of life, but the patriachal attitude is something I have always fought against in my own life and I don't wish it on others, especially if it not something they choose.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, I've never felt hatred for the women, or any of the FLDS. I am angered that anyone has to be raised this way and that their choices in life are taken away from them. They are not even allowed to choose who they marry. They certainly don't have the freedom of religion that the rest of us have.

Do you really see a new leader on the horizon? I think the loyalty to Jeffs will withstand all of this. They truly think he speaks for God.

They are being led by a sociopath, imo, and nothing but evil can come from that. Yes, some parts of their lives are enviable if you have ever wished for a simpler way of life, but the patriachal attitude is something I have always fought against in my own life and I don't wish it on others, especially if it not something they choose.

I'm sorry, SewingDeb. I didn't mean my post to intimate that you felt hatred towards them - I was speaking generally in response to your explanation. I just saw that alot in this thread and other places - and I think that enmity probably comes from the belief that all these mothers are subjecting their children to horrors.

I do think there is the potential for new leadership. Only time will tell.

As for the patriarchal attitude - it's not for me, but some desire and believe in it. My mother, for instance, would like nothing better than for a man to keep her safe and lead her around and tell her what to do. That works for her. I know others like her.

I agree that some of the women who live the lifestyle of the FLDS may not have chosen it, per se, as we think of chosing. However, all of us are sold what we are sold as children and decide where to go with it as adults. Frankly, many of these women sound tough, fiesty and headstrong. I respect that they believe in their way of life, and I'll bet many of them feel very free in that belief.

 

[Glow]

A one second heartbreaker

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Videos.php?VID=4

{he is saying "I dont want to go" for those without sound on your computer}

The interesting thing about this clip is when you compare it to media statements about how sensitive LE and CPS were around the children. At around the 2:09 mark on the tape there is a sheathed weapon inches from the little girls face. It would be hard to see how the children didn't notice those.

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Videos.php?VID=29


This one speaks to the crowded conditions and the atmosphere that has been described as" hurricane Katrina like"

the biggest thing I saw that bothered me was the blue tub they were expected to use to bathe their children in.

All in all its no wonder that these people are angry.

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Videos.php?VID=5

 

[Glow]

In the early days when I would read comments from readers at the various news sites covering this case, I felt I was in the minority in thinking the children should be returned. Turns out that emails 14:1 felt the same way. I guess while inaccurate, that is what I was "supposed" to think. Seems the governers office wanted it that way....


Public sentiment, as reflected in contacts with the governor of Texas, ran 449:32 in favor of sending the kids home- that's 14:1, and that was within the first three days. So the state set up a propaganda arm:


State officials kept tabs on media reports from across the country and circulated talking points to ensure public comments stayed consistent and on target.
Kathy Walt, Perry's deputy chief of staff, said in an April 18 e-mail that if media were "overlooking" testimony about alleged abuse, the staff should give reporters court documents and "talk the issues over with them."


also in print here, proof that the government planned to lie to the mothers, the ones that CPS said were complicating identification by "lying"to CPS ....


The women were to be told only that they were moving to the coliseum, the e-mails show.

http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9537072

 

[southcitymom]

In the early days when I would read comments from readers at the various news sites covering this case, I felt I was in the minority in thinking the children should be returned. Turns out that emails 14:1 felt the same way. I guess while inaccurate, that is what I was "supposed" to think. Seems the governers office wanted it that way....


Public sentiment, as reflected in contacts with the governor of Texas, ran 449:32 in favor of sending the kids home- that's 14:1, and that was within the first three days. So the state set up a propaganda arm:


State officials kept tabs on media reports from across the country and circulated talking points to ensure public comments stayed consistent and on target.
Kathy Walt, Perry's deputy chief of staff, said in an April 18 e-mail that if media were "overlooking" testimony about alleged abuse, the staff should give reporters court documents and "talk the issues over with them."


also in print here, proof that the government planned to lie to the mothers, the ones that CPS said were complicating identification by "lying"to CPS ....


The women were to be told only that they were moving to the coliseum, the e-mails show.

http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9537072

Wow - that's fascinating! I felt the exact same way. Amazing numbers.

 

[Glow]

You did? I didn't know that! I tell you this case has haunted me. I am usually a very middle of the road person and I couldn't see where I was missing the point.

I guess all of regardless of where we stood on the issue, were just doing the best we could to try and understand, given the fact that we werent being told the real truth. I have zero respect right now for Governor Rick Perry and his office.

This is really despicable and manipulative. It really goes to show that it is all about the politics and these type of people would be the LAST people I would personally want in charge of the well being of children.

 

[Glow]

Remember in the early days when we were told that CPS and LE had to "rush" in to save "Sarah"?

well here is what really happened


As CPS prepared to visit the ranch, Texas Rangers asked the agency to hold off until it readied its own response. That helps explain why four days lapsed between the call - now known to be a hoax - and the raid, initiated on April 3.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9534517

and here is another question...remember when the Kim family was lost in the mountains in the NW and they were able to figure out where to search using pings from cell phones? That was when I realized just how quickly a cell call can be traced. We are supposed to believe that while CPS, and the Sheriffs office sat waiting for the Texas Rangers that they couldnt check and find out that those calls werent even coming from within the state of Texas? Of course they could have. Brooke Adams broke the story within a few days of the story hitting the AP. She is just a reporter. LE with all their resources could have done the same.

This is going out on a limb since I havent seen any proof, but I wouldnt be surprised if LE did know, but they went in anyway. At the very least they didnt check. So many little innocent lives at stake and they didnt even dot their I's and cross their T's.

 

[Glow]

Among other details the e-mails reveal:

•Days after the raid, the governor's office apparently did not have a copy of the "search warrant that the media seems to be reading from," which contained basic information supporting the raid. Plus, an outbreak of chicken pox at the shelter prompts emergency operations chief Jack Colley to write: "Many concerns. ... This is getting out of hand."

•The governor's staff prepared for him two pages of "key message points, mostly in preparation for an interview with religious broadcaster Pat Robertson to promote the governor's new book on the Boy Scouts.

•On April 10, the governor's human service policy director Kristi Jordan reported that "we have reason to believe as a result of interviews that some of the mothers are planning to conduct a 'run.' Their objective would be to hide from law enforcement authorities." Security is beefed up.

Many of the e-mails involve how to separate the mothers, more than 130 of them, who were staying with the children. CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said that it is standard procedure in an abuse case to remove the parents to mitigate their influence.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/060408dntexcps.3ba4457.html

 

[PSUfan]

You did? I didn't know that! I tell you this case has haunted me. I am usually a very middle of the road person and I couldn't see where I was missing the point.

I guess all of regardless of where we stood on the issue, were just doing the best we could to try and understand, given the fact that we werent being told the real truth. I have zero respect right now for Governor Rick Perry and his office.

This is really despicable and manipulative. It really goes to show that it is all about the politics and these type of people would be the LAST people I would personally want in charge of the well being of children.

I have to admit that my knee-jerk reaction had me supporting the raid, in the beginning. After some thought, and reading around on the web, I have changed my opinion on it. I hope the families are soon reunited.

 

[Peculiar Petunia]

Gosh Blaize you put things so well....I wish I could do that. I think we will see the FLDS move away from Jeffs. That is a good thing.

I still am intersted in why so many people seem SO shocked and vitrolic towards Jeffs and act like what he has done justifies the actions of CPS.

Bernard Law was an Arch Bishop in the Catholic church. He had to resign because of his knowledge that priests under him were molesting young children while he did nothing. He only reassigned the priests if there was a complaint, giving them a new area in which to molest. Some of these priests molested children for over 23 years. Law was finally forced to resign his post in 2002. He was merely reassigned to an administrative post within the governing body of the Holy See in the Vatican. In 2005 he was selected to conductone of the funeral masses for the Pope. Why werent people hopping mad about that?

If you are like me, I barely remember the name of Bernard Law even though it made the news at the time. But you take men like that crazy whacked out David Koresh or this one, Warren Jeffs and people go nuts. If the crime here is the molestation of children then why are people not equally upset on behalf of ALL children. Whether they are Catholic or FLDS or Branch Davidian?

I'm not Catholic, but I think the difference is that the parishoners were not living in a walled compound with Law--or with any of the pedophile priests. The Catholics can vote with their wallet or with their feet.

 

[Glow]

I have to admit that my knee-jerk reaction had me supporting the raid, in the beginning. After some thought, and reading around on the web, I have changed my opinion on it. I hope the families are soon reunited.

I have had to change my mind on some things too PSUfan. Like for instance I thought originally that they (YFZ members) were on welfare. A lot had been written about bleeding the beast so my mind just went there....

mykodiak was the first one to tell me that the group in Texas did NOT practice that. I researched and sure enough, she was right. So that made me wonder what else I had wrong :crazy:

I feel that doing my own research and listening to what other people have to say is helping me to really learn a lot.

I think the ability to change our minds to adjust to reality is hard and the sign of a really "thinking" person, good for you :blowkiss:

 

[Glow]

I'm not Catholic, but I think the difference is that the parishoners were not living in a walled compound with Law--or with any of the pedophile priests. The Catholics can vote with their wallet or with their feet.

I was afraid to even use that in my post....the Catholic thing that is...........I have many Catholic friends and I didint want to be seen as picking on that one faith. Thank you for not taking it that way!

As far as living behind a walled compound goes, looks like those days are over at least for now. From what I am reading most of the families are staying in rented apartments in towns and cities. The fathers are keeping a distance, the mothers have been forced to go to work. So the kids are basically without their familiar home, their friends and extended family members, and have little time with their moms, since they are working now. They dont get to run and play outside. They dont have fresh garden food and they dont have their school. But no one is behind a wall. There are in a different situation. I guess time will tell if it is a "better" one.

 

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I still have to say that I can support the raid. I believe there is an obligation of CPS to investigate possible abuse. CPS has the right to remove all children while they determine if the children are in imminent danger - those living in a house hold together. Texas was bold and tested the limits saying that everyone was in that household. I think that Texas and the CPS had the legal rights to do that. The court deemed that they could all be tried together to see if the children should be removed. The court said they should be. At that point, I still have no problem with the case. Next, parental plans were written to help families get the children back. I liked those plans for just about anyone.

That being said, the FLDS challenged the right to claim everyone was in the same household and that there is imminent danger which requires the removal. We should expect such a response. The courts reviewed the situation and agreed with the FLDS. Again, due process was followed and I have no issue with that. I can support sending the children back as long as there is education and no abuse.

With all of that said, I don't really feel bad for anyone in the case. I don't feel bad for the poor FLDS having to go through this ordeal. I would hope that investigations would be done in any situation. I think that the CPS, law enforcement, and the courts all tested the limits, but there were checks and balances in the end.

To me this case is an interesting case of propoganda and media. Who do you believe, those who left and wrote anti-FLDS books (I am still waiting to read them so I can't say I have an opinion on those yet). Do you believe the media? Just like in the Up to the Minute thread about the girl with cancer that was initially told she couldn't attend graduation. Someone posted a reply that the school replied to their frustrated emails by saying they don't have the whole story. It sure seems everything is one sided (pro or con). I am glad we have a court system that can sort through both sides of the story.