The Rest of the Story...

After reading about the conditions under which these children were forced to live, I do not understand how anyone could question the raid. How can anyone afford to feed and clothe 40, 50 or 100 children? How could you possibly give them the love and attention that they deserve? How can anyone support a culture that advocates marrying off underage girls to grown men? Just because you are raised to not question authority does not make it right. People deserve the right to actually know what their choices are before accepting any particular way of life. These women and children were never afforded that right. They have been indoctrinated into a way of life that is unhealthy, abusive and offensive.

I don't understand why you discount what former members reveal about their life style. They can't all be lying. If a woman is abused, do we say oh, don't believe her she is just disgruntled? Their stories are eerily similar. The women have no voice, there is abuse, there is not enough food, they do not receive an adequate education, they do not receive adequate health care.

Peace,

Montana
 
sorry having trouble posting this one
1884.gif


ok! I think Ive got it!

see next post~
 
"The letters linked below — courtesy of the Salt Lake Tribune — were written by Hill Country Community Mental Health-Mental Retardation Center staff, in San Angelo, Texas. They assisted FLDS victims of CPS abuse in San Angelo shelters in early April 2008. The letters document what would in an international context be considered genocide or other war crimes. Despite these atrocities, it is doubtful that anyone in Texas CPS will be held accountable. "

http://iperceive.net/eye-witnesses-condemn-texas-cps-the-floor-was-literally-slick-with-tears/



The letters are photo copies and cannot be copy/pasted. At least not by me with my limited skills. I hand typed some of the thoughts. You can read the entire letters at the link. Please remember that in this case where the CPS and the FLDS are saying 2 completely different things, the words of neutral people become powerfully important in helping to get at what is really true. These mental health workers were invited in NOT by the FLDS but by CPS. There statements are the most unbiased first hand accounts we have, whether we like what they have to say or not.

Quotes from the letters-

I was told by CPS that the women and children wont talk. The women gave me their names as well as the names and ages of their children.


Unlike CPS the Rangers were respectful and polite. The Ranger in charge of the group was named Wendy. She squatted down to eye level to talk with a woman and greeted her by name. She returned a woman's cell phone and told her of plans to reunite the group.


The CPS workers were openly rude to the mothers and children, yelled at them for trying to wave to family members and friends in surrounding shelters ,threatened them with arrest if they did not stop waving, continually reminded them that the women were guests only and could be made to leave...threatened them with never seeing their children again if they did not cooperate and ignored requests for anything. The mothers began asking if everyone who approached them was CPS or not.

CPS workers became irritated when the mothers requested brooms and mops to clean their surroundings. One broom, one mop and one bucket were finally provided and were shared by neighboring shelters.



The mothers complained about the food and snacks provided...children were used to nuts and fruits for snacks, not fried pies. Vegetables were scarce and everything was highly processed. Very different diet, the children developed diarrhea and GI problems.


Mothers were consistently calm and patient. Childcare was textbook development strategy.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I was briefed that the women would not talk to us. This was not true. The CPS workers said they prayed in code but I understood them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was briefed that the women were uncooperative. I found this not to be so.


Children got sick and were vomiting on the buses.

The lies to the mothers by CPS such as mothers of special needs children being told they would be allowed to stay and then that afternoon taken away. When I spoke up about this on the bus I was told to leave or be arrested.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When arriving we were debriefed that the women were uncooperative and brainwashed.

I later realized that I was the one who was really brainwashed because I didn't want to go against or challenge rules that were wrong .

Thought about Nazi Germany

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We were told that the women wouldn't talk to us. This was a lie and was told to us to brainwash us.

Side by side cots, no air conditioning, no indoor plumbing.

Physical exams and X-rays of the children without parent permission. Women were constantly lied to by CPS about when they could see their lawyers or be with their children. The mental health staff was fired the second week. We were told we were being too compassionate. When the women stopped talking at all we were brought back.

CPS yelled at the children

I am glad that I got to see this. I am an older lady and never have I been so ashamed of being a Texan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The coliseum looked like a disaster scene

Whole experience left me with a sick feeling at the way it was conducted
I have worked in domestic violence/abuse field for over 20 years and never saw women treated this badly
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was a former CPS worker . I became a Broker between the CPS and the mothers. One mother wanted to peel and cut up an apple for her child. CPS would not let her have a knife. Too dangerous.
Another mother wanted scissors to cut yarn to make cheerio necklaces with the children. Told the same things as about the knife.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CPS would circle the beds with flashlights at night, The mothers were afraid their children would be taken in the night. This lead to exhausted women and children
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

women and children were herded like cattle.

Had to go purchase air mattresses for pregnant women ourselves.
No showers for several days
CPS obviously did not know or understand the culture of non violence. Would not allow simple tools to help make projects for the children.
Women were lied to and denied access to attorneys. Separated from children without getting to say goodbye. Final day of separation the level of cruelty and inhumanity was over whelming.

4 year od was terrified and hid and wasnt found for a day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

How could this happen in America.

It would take a book to tell it all.

I wanted to shout at CNN cameras what was really happening.

I sat with a pregnant mother whose 3 children were taken away and questioned for 6 hours.

I was worried about the mother of a 4 month old.Her name was Jeannetta Her mental status was grave in my opinion.
 
After reading about the conditions under which these children were forced to live, I do not understand how anyone could question the raid. How can anyone afford to feed and clothe 40, 50 or 100 children? How could you possibly give them the love and attention that they deserve? How can anyone support a culture that advocates marrying off underage girls to grown men? Just because you are raised to not question authority does not make it right. People deserve the right to actually know what their choices are before accepting any particular way of life. These women and children were never afforded that right. They have been indoctrinated into a way of life that is unhealthy, abusive and offensive.

I don't understand why you discount what former members reveal about their life style. They can't all be lying. If a woman is abused, do we say oh, don't believe her she is just disgruntled? Their stories are eerily similar. The women have no voice, there is abuse, there is not enough food, they do not receive an adequate education, they do not receive adequate health care.

Peace,

Montana

Hi Montana,

Im glad to see you posted here. I really appreciate the diversity of thought that we all have. I feel that I can learn more from people who dont agree with me than I can from those who do agree with me. Therein lies the rub, right?

So as to your thoughts...what do you think would be the ideal solution to this problem?
 
I still have to say that I can support the raid. I believe there is an obligation of CPS to investigate possible abuse. CPS has the right to remove all children while they determine if the children are in imminent danger - those living in a house hold together. Texas was bold and tested the limits saying that everyone was in that household. I think that Texas and the CPS had the legal rights to do that. The court deemed that they could all be tried together to see if the children should be removed. The court said they should be. At that point, I still have no problem with the case. Next, parental plans were written to help families get the children back. I liked those plans for just about anyone.

That being said, the FLDS challenged the right to claim everyone was in the same household and that there is imminent danger which requires the removal. We should expect such a response. The courts reviewed the situation and agreed with the FLDS. Again, due process was followed and I have no issue with that. I can support sending the children back as long as there is education and no abuse.

With all of that said, I don't really feel bad for anyone in the case. I don't feel bad for the poor FLDS having to go through this ordeal. I would hope that investigations would be done in any situation. I think that the CPS, law enforcement, and the courts all tested the limits, but there were checks and balances in the end.

To me this case is an interesting case of propoganda and media. Who do you believe, those who left and wrote anti-FLDS books (I am still waiting to read them so I can't say I have an opinion on those yet). Do you believe the media? Just like in the Up to the Minute thread about the girl with cancer that was initially told she couldn't attend graduation. Someone posted a reply that the school replied to their frustrated emails by saying they don't have the whole story. It sure seems everything is one sided (pro or con). I am glad we have a court system that can sort through both sides of the story.


RainbowsAndGumdrops;

Love your name by the way, :)

You said that you dont feel bad for ANYONE in this case. Ok. How do you feel about the children? Aside from the FLDS and the CPS?

I appreciate your comments.
 
RainbowsAndGumdrops;

Love your name by the way, :)

You said that you dont feel bad for ANYONE in this case. Ok. How do you feel about the children? Aside from the FLDS and the CPS?

I appreciate your comments.

Thanks for asking. I should clarify as what I wrote isn't exactly what I meant. I meant to say that the spotlight should shine on the FLDS if they think there is an issue. Additionally, the spotlight should shine on CPS, law enforcement, and the courts if there is an issue with what they did. I know things are not "RainbowsAndGumdrops" in this case from any aspect. I simply don't have an issue with the light shining on anyone.
 
You already know my view on the FLDS children. I think they are being raised in a horrible environment.

But if I could make the laws, I would vote for mandatory sterilization for anyone who has more children than they are willing and have the means to support. This would include families receiving welfare because of the numbers of children as well as deadbeat dads and moms dropping a kid a year for the increase in their welfare check. I don't think our Constitutional "rights" should extend to being able to have as many children as physically possible unless you have the means and the desire to support them without taxpayer aid.
 
I was afraid to even use that in my post....the Catholic thing that is...........I have many Catholic friends and I didint want to be seen as picking on that one faith. Thank you for not taking it that way!:)

As far as living behind a walled compound goes, looks like those days are over at least for now. From what I am reading most of the families are staying in rented apartments in towns and cities. The fathers are keeping a distance, the mothers have been forced to go to work. So the kids are basically without their familiar home, their friends and extended family members, and have little time with their moms, since they are working now. They dont get to run and play outside. They dont have fresh garden food and they dont have their school. But no one is behind a wall. There are in a different situation. I guess time will tell if it is a "better" one.

Why are the mothers forced to work now? The children have been returned and they are free to return to the ranch.
 
Pepper, I so agree with you.

Have as many children as you want, as long as you can afford to feed and care for them without government assistance (other than extreme emergency).
 
You already know my view on the FLDS children. I think they are being raised in a horrible environment.

Hey Pep! :blowkiss:

Other than the underage marriage, what do you think is horrible about the enviroment they are being raised in? Is there anything else or is that your concern?


B
But if I could make the laws, I would vote for mandatory sterilization for anyone who has more children than they are willing and have the means to support. This would include families receiving welfare because of the numbers of children as well as deadbeat dads and moms dropping a kid a year for the increase in their welfare check. I don't think our Constitutional "rights" should extend to being able to have as many children as physically possible unless you have the means and the desire to support them without taxpayer aid.


I have seen people that do exactly what you are saying. A baby a year. Its horrible. I dont know if you know this......(I didnt know it) the FLDS in Texas never took any welfare or child support from the government.

I was guilty of "assumimg" that if some did they all did. I was wrong. :chicken:
 
Why are the mothers forced to work now? The children have been returned and they are free to return to the ranch.


good question, as far as I can tell it is because they dont want to risk even the slightest chance of CPS taking the children again. Better safe than sorry.

Other things I have read say that the advice from their lawyers is to stay clear of the ranch.

If I were going to just give my opinion, I would think that if I were an FLDS mom who had been charged by the courts as one household "en masse" then I would break away from the "en masse" setting and make the court deal with me as just me. One on one. Which is what the court should have done in the beginning.

I think it also shows that for the parents here, the children come first - not the religion. Good for them and *poof* there goes another myth about the FLDS not caring about the children as much as they do Warren Jeffs.
 
Thanks for asking. I should clarify as what I wrote isn't exactly what I meant. I meant to say that the spotlight should shine on the FLDS if they think there is an issue. Additionally, the spotlight should shine on CPS, law enforcement, and the courts if there is an issue with what they did. I know things are not "RainbowsAndGumdrops" in this case from any aspect. I simply don't have an issue with the light shining on anyone.


I agree with you 100% on everyone being equally observed under the light of scrutiny. I just don't think it has been done that way.

I would have to say that I do have a problem with the unevenness of things.


I have a problem with CPS receiving phone calls from a girl in the compound saying that she was being harmed and then waiting 4 days to go in and check.

I have a problem with the fact that after waiting 4 days they go in the investigate a situation involving children after bedtime and waking them up and interrogating them way into the night.

I have a problem with CPS assuming that a woman is under 18 who is really 37 because of how she looks and refusing to accept her drivers license, because it isnt "from Texas"

I have a problem with ripping nursing babies out of their mothers arms even after it has clearly been determined that there was no "Sarah" to rescue.

I have a problem with making a monogamously married mother of two in her 20's give birth without her husband and then making her and her newborn camp out in a CPS office because she "might" be a teenager.

I have a problem with Texas OK ing that a girl as young as 14 can engage in sex legally, up until 2005 and then changing that law not for moral reasons but for political ones and then rushing into this raid.

I have a problem with the media not asking questions, but rather glibly assuming what they were being told.

I dont need to add that I have a problem with Warren Jeffs or under aged marriages. Ive already said that.
 
I guess censorship is still alive and well in America...

their quote
"The Standard-Times has disabled the comment feature on gosanangelo.com for 30 days as we evaluate our policy regarding Web site comments."

On their homepage under "news" there is not a mention of the biggest topic to hit this area in years.......there is only one small link under "opinions" about this.

The Op article has bits of misinformation and spelling errors which is :eek: when you are a newspaper, isnt it? Basically it doesnt say anything that isnt being said all over the web elsewhere so I would call it "safe" politically safe.

In the early days the papers comments section was hopping with comments applauding the Rangers and CPS as well as the fact that it happened in Texas. Almost every comment was peppered with "dont mess with Texas".

once the truth started to come out and the story grew, the posts werent all Pro LE and Con FLDS anymore. In fact it started to swing the other way. The comments did not get any ruder. They were rude right from the beginning. The comments just shifted away from supporting what this paper has decided to support. I know this because I was there reading the comments through the month of April. So now they claim because things got heated they have to shut the comments down. Things couldnt have gotten any more heated then they were in the early days of this raid. Things just got less biased as time went on so now nothing can be said. Shame on them for calling themselves a "news" paper.
 
Anne Wildes

She doesn’t wear a prairie dress. She doesn’t live in an isolated compound. She holds a B.A. in Business Education and is a published author.

“…there are many, many women who have freely chosen this lifestyle as consenting adults and that are happy and adjusted in it,” she says.
A plural wife is often a working mother.
“They are highly educated in many cases and they want to use that education in helping the family.”
Polygamy in illegal in all 50 states and is a felony in Utah.
“It lends to isolation because people don’t want to take the risk of coming out in public or being found out. The kids in public school can be ridiculed; that’s why they try to keep that kind of quiet.”
Ms. Wilde says that she and her colleagues have worked with many groups, but efforts to reach out to Warren Jeff’s FLDS have been unsuccessful.
“We have offered and we’ve even sent money to help the women and children. And care packages and 500 letters from some of the polygamous children up here, as well as plural wives, to open up communications. So we have made an effort to try and help them understand that we’re very supportive of them as family- as long as there’s no red flags- which we don’t support.”
“But we have to make that distinction so they don’t think we’re supporting underage marriages or any kind of abuse- and I don’t think those situations exist in FLDS as much as people think they do.”Ms. Wilde believes that polygamy should be decriminalized but not legalized.

http://poligazette.com/2008/06/03/the-other-polygamy/
 
While this is ALL absurd, it may bring needed perspective to the enormity of the crime that has been committed by the great State of Texas and its underlings.



“Three men in Adelaide, Australia, who employed a three-week old sea lion pup as bait to catch a record-breaking 3,344-pound shark, were ordered to pay $21,000 in fines and court fees because, in the words of Magistrate Fred Field, ‘the act of taking such a young sea lion pup must have been a cause of distress to the pup and its mother.’”


surely human children deserve protection under the law at least equal to that given the young of other species. Does anyone really think a sea lion pup and its mother are more deserving of that protection, and their abuse of our outrage, than the 460+ children and scores of women of the YFZ Ranch? Is their distress of so little moment that the State of Texas, with its governor’s knowledge and consent can violate its own constitution, march into private property without adequate cause (per the rulings of the Texas courts) and brutally traumatize hundreds of women and children?

http://iperceive.net/rights-of-children-vis-a-vis-pups-and-kittens/#more-422
 
Out of the governor's mailbag
based on public emails and voice messages sent to Texas Gov. Rick Perry's office.

The tide went about 14 to 1 in favor of returning the FLDS children to their mothers. The messages came from every state in the nation. After their names, some writers added more description of who they are: ''Not a Texan, but a citizen of the United States of America, who believes in due process, innocence until guilt is proven and freedom of religion.'' Or: ''former Republican,'' ''lifelong Republican,'' ''American,'' and ''USA loving Christian of the Methodist faith.''

Here are one-liners from some of the letters I read:
''I thought Texas was better than this.''
''I hope that we are still 'America' in Texas.''
''Maybe Texas should [cede] from the union.''
''It's the Mormons this time, but it could be you next.''
''If a Baptist girl called and made a criminal complaint would the 'authorities' take the children from everyone in the state, or how does that work?''
''I am shocked at the trampling of constitutional rights that is occurring in Eldorado, Texas.''
"This is horrid, as bad as detention of Japanese in California in World War II. What are you people thinking?"
''Reminds me of the round-up of the Jews during World War II.''
''Bravo for your courage, but also return children under 4 to their parents for psychological reasons.''
''Shame on you totalitarians.''
''Massive blunder.''
''Make an orphanage.''
''If you do nothing to protect these rights, you can be assured that you will not have my vote now or ever in the future.''
''I am not taking a vacation on the Texas coast this year due to the kidnapping of over 400 children.''
''In my almost 80 years of life I have seen a great many mistakes that politicians make. However, never to the magnitude that you are doing with these children by forcefully removing hundreds of them from their mothers. I would hope that your wife has the courage to kick your sorry butt out the door. At least our idiot Spitzer resigned.''
''The children are not at fault but they are being severely punished.''
''I hope your dreams will be disturbed by the cries of the children and babies separated in such a cruel and abusive manner.''

''First you give us George W. Bush and now this debacle.'' <--- funny

''I do not condone the church, the lifestyle, the beliefs. But I am far more fearful of what the state is doing to those kids in the name of 'safety' than I am of what will happen to them if they are allowed to remain with their loving mothers.''

''I will never visit your state again or spend one penny on any Texas company's goods. You should be kicked out of America for this.''

''These parents should receive at least as much due process as the druggie moms get when they consider removing kids.''

''This issue fails the sanity check.''

''Why not arrest Hugh Hefner? He is loving with three girls and the media flaunts it.''

''That child custody hearing was a joke.''

''The freedom of religion is and has been completely slaughtered.''

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
201
Guests online
484
Total visitors
685

Forum statistics

Threads
625,747
Messages
18,509,217
Members
240,837
Latest member
MNigh_ShyamaLADD
Back
Top