The Rest of the Story...

[yolorado]

I think that in the spirit of supporting women in the making of their own choices I would have my work cut out for me in that situation!

If my daughter was 18. then I couldnt stop her physically. I think I would try to stop her mentally by using my words to point out what I personally disagree with about this religion. I think I would try as hard as I can to understand why she wants to be a part of it.

Bottom line - I would respect her right to make her own decisions - even when I dont agree.

We agree.

 

[Pepper]

But that is what WE are being told. That is not what is coming out of the mouths of the young ones on the verge of becoming adults.

But we have heard it from those who escaped. For example the two "Fawns" that Flora Jessops helped escape. Some of the Lost Boys who have been helped.

I thought it was interesting to read the emails that the 16 year old still under restraining orders wrote to her lawyer. She doesnt sound brainwashed or uneducated or timid. She sounds irritated and fiesty and smart. Have you had a chance to read them?

Have you read Carolyn Jessop's book? Have you watched Laurie Allen's DVD "Banking on Heaven?"

I think that we need to allow room not just for the black and the white but also there must be some allowance for the gray. Painting these people as all good is in error. Painting them as all bad would be too. When we dont allow for the gray - that is where we run the risk of trampling peoples civil and moral rights. That is my concern.

Any time education is restricted, books are banned, learning about how the "outside" lives is prohibited, young girls are being forced into marriage with a person not of their choosing, their self-determination and free will is being violated. That is a fact.

If a so-called religion is so fearful of unbiased education, as to PROHIBIT it, then their civil and moral rights are being trampled from within. If their "religion" was so blissful, then why do they need to lock people in, and keep people out? Why aren't there converts to this "religion?" The only new blood is from other FLDS compounds, transported from compound to compound like broodmares. There are no Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims begging to become members of FLDS. And if there were, they wouldn't be welcomed.

I would be much more sympathetic to your arguments prior to Warren Jeffs ascention to power, but since his rise to power all educated self-determination and free will has been stolen from the young people in this cult.

 

[Pepper]

I think that in the spirit of supporting women in the making of their own choices I would have my work cut out for me in that situation!

If my daughter was 18. then I couldnt stop her physically. I think I would try to stop her mentally by using my words to point out what I personally disagree with about this religion. I think I would try as hard as I can to understand why she wants to be a part of it.

Bottom line - I would respect her right to make her own decisions - even when I dont agree.

But you see, this is exactly what is missing in the FLDS.

These kids are being told that there is no shade of gray. Either you live their way and OBEY and possibily you can earn your way to heaven, but only if you are a good OBEDIENT wife, or if you renounce their way of living and manage to escape, you ARE DAMNED TO ETERNAL HELL.

PS, and yes there were underage pregnant girls, but not as many as originally thought or could be proven since official records are non-existant. As has been pointed out, the investigation continues and I'm sure there will be some criminal charges before it is all over.

 

[Glow]

This need to level all things and make all things equal is what drove me crazy about the public schools. You seem determined to do that too. Are you a public school teacher?

No. I dont like that about public schools either Yolorado! As a matter of fact, I took my last two kids out of public school in their middle school grades and home schooled until they started to attend college.

We aren't really talking about Catholics right now, although the Catholics I know will openly acknowledge various shortcomig of their religious structure and clearly disavow the sexual abuse by priests, unlike members of the FLDS who don't seem willing to see Jeff's errors or to rebuke him. I know many Catholics becaue they don't live in a closed society. They live in my neigborhood. They attend the same schools. They shop at my grocery. Their church groups worked with others in the community helping tornado and huricane victims. They don't set themselves apart and try to establish their own laws while ignoring those of society. I don't know any of them who planned and witnessed a marriage a 12 or 14 year old in our generation, and they don't routinely stop educating their kids around 12-14 in present times. In fact, Notre Dame University is a really big deal and a lot of them hope their kids will go there and to other colleges and universities to learn and grow so that they can support themselves and be of benefit to society, not just Catholic society, US society. They are part of our society, unlike the FLDS.

I wasnt talking about Catholics as individual people. I am sure that you and I both know some wonderful people who follow the Catholic faith. I should start any statement I make about the Catholics with a disclaimer apologizing to the faith at large. I use them to illustrate a point NOT because they are worse than other religions because that simply isnt true. I use the Catholic religion only because they are so prominent and well known. To all Catholics, I would apologize if I appear to be "picking" on them. That is not my intent.

In looking at the Catholic faith at large I was "using them" as an example of how people will continue to follow a religious leader even thought that leader is clearly wrong. I mentioned an example of the same thing in the protestant arena also. It stretches across all denominations. The fact is people follow their religious leaders based on faith. When the leader is reviled that can make the leader seem MORE attractive to his followers because that is viewed as "persecution". That is why if you want to break up the following of a maniacal perverted religious leader (Warren Jeffs) you need to approach things carefully. It would probably not be a good idea to raid his nest and take the most clearly innocent (in this case - the children) and stick them in a horse stable while you figure out your next move. That only causes lots of issues to be raised. Issues like civil rights and womens rights and religious persecution and on and on and on.

What do you think of people who follow Warren Jeffs? Doesn't bother you? You like it? Who cares?

I feel for them. I especially feel for the women and the children. I think their way of life looks incredibly difficult to live. It looks physically hard and I think that they must be living it because they truly believe it is the right way. People usually take the easy route, so for them to take such a hard one it must be based on faith on their part. Because I think their faith is misguided I see all that they are doing as being for nothing. That is why I feel for them.

You think it's fine to kiss 12 year olds, marry them, and marry 14 year olds to their cousins when the 14 year old doesn't want to marry her cousin? People have married their cousins before, why shouldn't everyone else? So what if it's against the law in some states? It was ok before, why the pass the law if it was ok before? Makes sense for Warren to marry anywhere from 50-180 women; after all he's the alpha male? He should be able to develop stable, loving relationships with all those women, and their children to boot, right? He can provide for all those people, even if he has to steal money, buildings and heavy equipment from the church to do it, right? That's what you think?
?

I have said over and over that I think Warren Jeffs is mentally ill and he is a terrible "leader" and he is right were he needs to be - in jail.

I dont think that my saying that over and over matters though.

In this case, unless an individual (me) is willing to accept with their mouth wide open EVERYTHING the media is dishing out, that means that individual (me) MUST be pro Warren Jeffs. I find that amazing quite frankly.

So what if he can not feed all those mouths and they have to go on wellfare (not just talkin' TX here; now I'm talking historically about UT and AZ, maybe ND, NV, ID?)

Because I have never attempted to defend the FLDS religion, I have never addressed what they do or do not do in other states. I only made one comment on that a long time ago and that was to say that I did not think they were entitled to any government help with their chosen lifestyle.

Other people go on wellfare, so it's ok for them too? So what if their lifestyle is against the law? Other people break the law, why shouldn't they? And besides, since it they did it historically, it shouldn't be against the law anyway? Why shouldn't they pull something over on society? They're God's chose and society persecutes them anyway? Even if Jeffs can't remember all the names of his wives, let alone his children, that's ok, right? Who needs a dad who knows your name? So what 49-179 guys have to go without? Seems like a great way to structure a society? Correct? Is that what you think? Or, all ways of structuring a society equal, so why judge? Is that where you're coming from? Why bother educating the kids, they'll never leaved the closed society--unless of course they escape or get thrown out? If some schools in the US are bad, why shouldn't the FLDS undereducate their children too? Is that what you think? So what if a few 12 or 14 year olds get married and pregnant, they're having their periods, so why the fridge not? That's your opinon? What do you think about people who follow this man? You have no problem with it? Or you do? Other religions are bad too, so what the heck? Is that what you are saying? Where are you coming from? What do you think?

Trying to use two negatives to point out a positive is always tricky and obviously I failed miserably in making my point.

What I was trying in my own inept way to say is this -

We as a mainstream society have some of the very problems that we are so "shocked" at the FLDS for having. We have child abuse. The sexual exploitation of children is rampant. We have an extremely poor educational system that promotes children through the system and spits them out with a diploma yet unable to read or tell you where South America is located. There are 20 countries that do a better job of educating their children than we do. And where we statistically start to drop behind is from the 8th grade on. That is where we do the worst Why arent people indignant about that? A lot more children are put "at risk" by that then are at risk in the FLDS home schooling just based on the numbers alone. So why all the outrage directed in only one direction?

 

[yolorado]

But you see, this is exactly what is missing in the FLDS.

These kids are being told that there is no shade of gray. Either you live their way and OBEY and possibily you can earn your way to heaven, but only if you are a good OBEDIENT wife, or if you renounce their way of living and manage to escape, you ARE DAMNED TO ETERNAL HELL.

PS, and yes there were underage pregnant girls, but not as many as originally thought or could be proven since official records are non-existant. As has been pointed out, the investigation continues and I'm sure there will be some criminal charges before it is all over.

Exactly, and when I see what is going on with Teresa Jeffs, Warren's daughter, I see more of the same. Her e-mails and her letter to the judge do not speak with the same voice. IMO, one or both have been written for her and she has apparently changed her tune since returned to her mother and once again come under FLDS influence. I can see why her ad litem is concerned. Women who've escaped, and others involved with this group, describe the intimidation that members can be subjected to, and it can be brutal--threats not only against them but against their family members too. I fear we are seeing it play out right now. TX is convening a grand jury and wants to talk to Terea, but I believe the courts have played into the hands of the FLDS by returning potential witnesses like her to the FLDS and it's power and intimidation over them. I think that's what CPS and the original judge were trying to avoid. Unfortunately, I think the higher courts made the wrong call on this one.

 

[Pepper]

What I was trying in my own inept way to say is this -

We as a mainstream society have some of the very problems that we are so "shocked" at the FLDS for having. We have child abuse. The sexual exploitation of children is rampant. We have an extremely poor educational system that promotes children through the system and spits them out with a diploma yet unable to read or tell you where South America is located. There are 20 countries that do a better job of educating their children than we do. And where we statistically start to drop behind is from the 8th grade on. That is where we do the worst Why arent people indignant about that? A lot more children are put "at risk" by that then are at risk in the FLDS home schooling just based on the numbers alone. So why all the outrage directed in only one direction?

I agree with you that many, not all, public schools do a terrible job of educating. The drop-out rate is way too high. And for those kids who will never be "students" there should be more emphasis on trade schools. I think it is irresponsible that many kids graduate high school without any understanding of compound interest and debt management - basic skills that are being overlooked in the system, but should be a graduation REQUIREMENT! But we still don't lock these kids up and teach them only religious dogma, and send the girls to an old man's bed at 16 or younger.

 

[yolorado]

We as a mainstream society have some of the very problems that we are so "shocked" at the FLDS for having. We have child abuse. The sexual exploitation of children is rampant. We have an extremely poor educational system that promotes children through the system and spits them out with a diploma yet unable to read or tell you where South America is located. There are 20 countries that do a better job of educating their children than we do. And where we statistically start to drop behind is from the 8th grade on. That is where we do the worst Why arent people indignant about that? A lot more children are put "at risk" by that then are at risk in the FLDS home schooling just based on the numbers alone. So why all the outrage directed in only one direction?

There is perpetual outrage over all the ills of general society you decribe.

Sorry, I think I was the one unclear. My basic question was, in essence, do you think it's a good thing that children have been returned to the FLDS society which reveres and follows a pervert? Won't that condone and encourage more perverse behaviour?

 

[Pepper]

Have you ever wondered why Carolyn Jessop allowed her teenaged daughter to go back into that life style without a fight?

If my daughter was 18. then I couldnt stop her physically. I think I would try to stop her mentally by using my words to point out what I personally disagree with about this religion. I think I would try as hard as I can to understand why she wants to be a part of it.

Bottom line - I would respect her right to make her own decisions - even when I dont agree.

I think you answered your own question.

 

[Glow]

Exactly, and when I see what is going on with Teresa Jeffs, Warren's daughter, I see more of the same. Her e-mails and her letter to the judge do not speak with the same voice. IMO, one or both have been written for her and she has apparently changed her tune since returned to her mother and once again come under FLDS influence. I can see why her ad litem is concerned. Women who've escaped, and others involved with this group, describe the intimidation that members can be subjected to, and it can be brutal--threats not only against them but against their family members too. I fear we are seeing it play out right now. TX is convening a grand jury and wants to talk to Terea, but I believe the courts have played into the hands of the FLDS by returning potential witnesses like her to the FLDS and it's power and intimidation over them. I think that's what CPS and the original judge were trying to avoid. Unfortunately, I think the higher courts made the wrong call on this one.

The Salt Lake Tribune had withheld Jeffs' name because Malonis alleged she was a victim of sexual abuse - something Jeffs adamantly denies.
"I am so sick of being called that when I am absolutely not a victim of sexual abuse and you have no evidence to prove that I have ever had sexual relations," she said in her e-mail to Malonis.
Malonis had told Walther during a court hearing in May that she suspected Jeffs had a child, but later acknowledged that is not the case. In her restraint motion, Malonis said she had been told by CPS and law enforcement that Jeffs was spiritually married to an older man when she was 15.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9668662

CPS, LE, Malonis are all on the same side and part of the same system, its funny to see how they all pass the buck and blame each other.

 

[Glow]

I think you answered your own question.

Ahh but see I am "evil" and probably "work for" the FLDS and at best I am viewed as a sympathizer of perverted old men.

so that sums me up as to why I am a problem.

Now if Carolyn and I are on the same page what is her problem exactly?

 

[Pepper]

The Salt Lake Tribune had withheld Jeffs' name because Malonis alleged she was a victim of sexual abuse - something Jeffs adamantly denies.
"I am so sick of being called that when I am absolutely not a victim of sexual abuse and you have no evidence to prove that I have ever had sexual relations," she said in her e-mail to Malonis.
Malonis had told Walther during a court hearing in May that she suspected Jeffs had a child, but later acknowledged that is not the case. In her restraint motion, Malonis said she had been told by CPS and law enforcement that Jeffs was spiritually married to an older man when she was 15.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9668662

CPS, LE, Malonis are all on the same side and part of the same system, its funny to see how they all pass the buck and blame each other.

Glow, I'm having trouble trying to understand why you think that the FLDS only speaks truthfully! What is it about brainwashing that you don't understand? There is plenty of truth and testimony that underage girls have been given to old men against their free will for the purpose of bearing as many children as possible between puberty and menopause. Yet you are constantly trying to ignore these facts. Of course the Jeffs girl is going to lie. If she tells the truth she is condemned to eternal hell. That's what she believes, and there is absolutely no sin in lying to the "beast."

One thing is for certain. This so-called "Christian" religion bears no resemblance to following the Ten Commandments!

"Thou shalt not bear false witness" only means with each other, not the outside world.
"Thou shalt not commit adultry" certainly does not speak of monogamy.
"Thou shalt not kill" excuses the act of "blood atonement." If Jeffs says kill, you can bet they will.
"Thou shalt not steal" unless it is from the "beast."
And I won't even go into the one about having "no other gods before me."

They make up their own rules to suit their own purposes. And their main purpose is to enrich the Prophet and other male "officials" of their cult at the expense and degradation of everyone else. It reminds me of a colony of ants, with one queen (in this case, king) and a whole colony of workers that make sure the queen/king is well taken care of, often sacrificing their lives to that end.

 

[Pepper]

Ahh but see I am "evil" and probably "work for" the FLDS and at best I am viewed as a sympathizer of perverted old men.

so that sums me up as to why I am a problem.

Now if Carolyn and I are on the same page what is her problem exactly?

Huh? This makes no sense to me. I NEVER said you were EVIL or WORKED FOR THE FLDS, or that you were a "problem." I just think you are uninformed, and are enjoying the role of "devil's advocate"!

If you read Carolyn's book you will learn that she had the benefit of a college education before that right was stripped of other younger women. She is perhaps a tad more intelligent than the rest of the women, and saw in her heart that the practices of the FLDS were mind control and unhealthy. That is why she plotted and carefully orchestrated her escape.

But once Jeffs came into power, she saw the handwriting on the wall.

 

[Glow]

There is perpetual outrage over all the ills of general society you decribe.

No there isnt. There is a lethargic feeling that it is bad but "oh well"
You will never get the kind of outrage over mainstream societies ills that you will get if you take a small group of people that dress funny and talk funny and get the ball rolling on their faults and misdeeds.

Sorry, I think I was the one unclear. My basic question was, in essence, do you think it's a good thing that children have been returned to the FLDS society which reveres and follows a pervert? Won't that condone and encourage more perverse behaviour?

I think it is a very good thing that the children were returned. The Texas CPS system is in worse shape than the FLDS system.

I posted links back awhile ago about the state of the CPS system in Texas. The raping of children. The drugging of children. The lack of follow thru for the teen aged boys. It is all a matter of public record.

I dont think a child should ever be taken from a parent and handed over to a government unless the childs literal life is in danger. It should only be done to stop death from occurring. Governments dont know how to raise children. If their parents dont know how either, then that is sad but just means that the government and the parents are both not qualified. Bad parents dont automatically assure good government parenting.

Governments are run by laws. Laws are set by precedents. If we allow the Texas government to walk in unannounced and take children when they KNOW the call they got was bogus, then we have a problem. If the government was allowed to get away with that it could set a precedent. Once that happens the people lose a say over where that power is applied next. The governments power grows stronger - the peoples power grows weaker. I am against that.


As far as the second part of your question about the FLDS. I think it is a shame the raid was carried out for two reasons

#1 reason The children.
Everyone else seems to be very quiet about how badly these kids got treated by CPS. It seems as though to simply acknowledge what CPS did that really was bad is to somehow "side" with the FLDS. That isnt true. I think I would feel a lot better if someone who is on the opposing side of this discussion would actually acknowledge that. The total defense of CPS and the total attack of FLDS seems unbalanced to me. They have both done wrong.

#2 The need to bring about change.
There are things about the FLDS that are in need of change. I think the state of Texas missed a great opportunity to lead the way for Utah and Az and Co in showing them how to bring about effective change.

If you took all the money that was actually spent on this whole mess and all the other resources that were used and handled things differently? Some real good could have come out of it. As it is the state actually handed the FLDS cause to use against the state. So now the water is murky and there will be lots of arguing and issues that dont have anything to do with bringing about positive change. That is a shame and the blame lies totally on the state of Texas for that since they are the ones who chose to get SO worked up that they ended up charging in to YFZ even though they knew Sarah wasnt there and Dale Barlow hadnt been there in years.

That was just a really bad idea.

 

[Pepper]

I posted links back awhile ago about the state of the CPS system in Texas. The raping of children. The drugging of children. The lack of follow thru for the teen aged boys. It is all a matter of public record.

I dont think a child should ever be taken from a parent and handed over to a government unless the childs literal life is in danger. It should only be done to stop death from occurring. So the cult can beat them and sexually abuse them as long as they stop short of killing them? Governments dont know how to raise children. If their parents dont know how either, then that is sad but just means that the government and the parents are both not qualified. Bad parents dont automatically assure good government parenting.

Governments are run by laws. Laws are set by precedents. If we allow the Texas government to walk in unannounced and take children when they KNOW the call they got was bogus, then we have a problem. At the time the call was made they didn't know it was bogus. If the government was allowed to get away with that it could set a precedent. Once that happens the people lose a say over where that power is applied next. The governments power grows stronger - the peoples power grows weaker. I am against that.


As far as the second part of your question about the FLDS. I think it is a shame the raid was carried out for two reasons

#1 reason The children.
Everyone else seems to be very quiet about how badly these kids got treated by CPS. How badly were they treated? It looked like the group homes they were in were clean and pleasant. I didn't see any "abuse." It seems as though to simply acknowledge what CPS did that really was bad is to somehow "side" with the FLDS. That isnt true. I think I would feel a lot better if someone who is on the opposing side of this discussion would actually acknowledge that. The total defense of CPS and the total attack of FLDS seems unbalanced to me. They have both done wrong. I am not a member of the Texas CPS. I didn't visit the foster homes while the children were there. I have no first hand knowledge of what you think was abusive treatment. I suspect you weren't there either to judge first hand. I will just plead ignorant on the accusuation unless you can provide some verifiable proof. On the other hand I have studied this cult for several years and read several books about them, and as a result I believe that they have mistreated women and children to the point of being dangerously abusive. I also believe that they have murdered deformed and disobedient children as evidenced by the cemetery Flora Jessops speaks of near Colorado City.

#2 The need to bring about change.
There are things about the FLDS that are in need of change. I think the state of Texas missed a great opportunity to lead the way for Utah and Az and Co in showing them how to bring about effective change. And how would you propose doing that? The powerful men don't want change! Why should they? They are living the good life off the backs of their women and children. What if this "religion" practiced human sacrifice of their first born? Would you still want a hands off approach under the freedom of religion argument?

If you took all the money that was actually spent on this whole mess and all the other resources that were used and handled things differently? Some real good could have come out of it. As it is the state actually handed the FLDS cause to use against the state. So now the water is murky and there will be lots of arguing and issues that dont have anything to do with bringing about positive change. That is a shame and the blame lies totally on the state of Texas for that since they are the ones who chose to get SO worked up that they ended up charging in to YFZ even though they knew Sarah wasnt there and Dale Barlow hadnt been there in years.

That was just a really bad idea.

But again they didn't know about the phony "Sarah" at the time they received the call and made the decision to enter the compound. I am firmly convinced that their actions were in the best interest of protecting the children whom they were convinced were in danger.

 

[Pepper]

I should add that the one thing about the raid and subsequent action of the CPS that should have been different is they should have mobilized former FLDS people like Flora Jessops and Carolyn Jessops and Laurie Allen to talk to the women - people that could understand the lifestyle and perhaps guide them in a different direction. I did not see that this was done, and I believe that might have made a difference in the outcome.

 

[yolorado]

Glow, I'm having trouble trying to understand why you think that the FLDS only speaks truthfully! What is it about brainwashing that you don't understand? There is plenty of truth and testimony that underage girls have been given to old men against their free will for the purpose of bearing as many children as possible between puberty and menopause. Yet you are constantly trying to ignore these facts. Of course the Jeffs girl is going to lie. If she tells the truth she is condemned to eternal hell. That's what she believes, and there is absolutely no sin in lying to the "beast." Not only that, but she'll condem her mother to hell to for raising her wrong and she'll be cast out and never see her mother or brothers and sisters again, and her brothers and sisters will be glad to see her go because they are going to suffer for the rest of their lives for what she's done, if they live for the rest of their lives, if she does.... She'll be responsible for the persecution of her society. If the leaders think she tried to get out or will testify against them, they might even lock her up send her to Canada or Mexico where no one can find her, or worse. No, she just needs to be a good girl, remember how she was raised, remember that she's married to loyal member. (My guess that's who the other guy mentioned in the restraining order is.) All this can be forgotten. All she needs to do is help Uncle Willie get her a new lawyer, and probably go back to her husband. Apparently, once the courts released Jeffs to her mom under an agreement they had both wanted at the time and supported, both Annette (is that Merrill's daughter or Carolyn's sister or some other Annette?) and Teresa sat by silently while Willie started doing all the talking. He threatened her ad litem if she didn't act more supportively toward the FLDS. It appears he's now following through. I read the ad litem's petition. Willie sounds like one scary enforcer. This ad litem isn't the first to think so.

One thing is for certain. This so-called "Christian" religion bears no resemblance to following the Ten Commandments!

"Thou shalt not bear false witness" only means with each other, not the outside world.
"Thou shalt not commit adultry" certainly does not speak of monogamy.
"Thou shalt not kill" excuses the act of "blood atonement." If Jeffs says kill, you can bet they will.
"Thou shalt not steal" unless it is from the "beast."
And I won't even go into the one about having "no other gods before me."

They make up their own rules to suit their own purposes. And their main purpose is to enrich the Prophet and other male "officials" of their cult at the expense and degradation of everyone else. It reminds me of a colony of ants, with one queen (in this case, king) and a whole colony of workers that make sure the queen/king is well taken care of, often sacrificing their lives to that end.

Sigh.

 

[Pepper]

Excellent points yolorado! This poor girl has been threatened. You can take that to the bank.

 

[Glow]

But again they didn't know about the phony "Sarah" at the time they received the call and made the decision to enter the compound. I am firmly convinced that their actions were in the best interest of protecting the children whom they were convinced were in danger.

Pepper,

It is all over the media that they knew the "sarah" that Flora was talking to wasnt in Tx. They also knew that Barlow hadnt been in Texas. They talked to his parole officer. Brooke Adams is a reporter (for the Salt Lake Tribune), and she knew the call was a hoax within a week of the raid, using no more information than was available to any other reporter.

 

[Glow]

We could go back and forth with words and how we personally feel all day long and accomplish little. I really think that the facts are there we just have to set aside our feelings and look at them.

I thought I would post some links to some of the "allegations" I myself have made.

#1 The Mistreatment of the children
http://iperceive.net/eye-witnesses-c...ck-with-tears/

Salvation Army wanted no part of this debacle.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/inde...tid=1&index=48



#2 CPS charges of underaged pregnant teens Proven False

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services had all the power in the world to structure status hearings held this week in any order it wanted. It kept telling us, the media and the public, that there were 31 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who were pregnant, mothers or both.

Now we know the truth: There are only five girls in that group. All but one are or will be 18 this year. One gave birth when she was 17, three when they were 16. One is pregnant.

I kept asking the state for a breakdown by age of the 31 girls, the 60 percent, it claimed were pregnant or mothers. They refused weeks ago and still haven't done it.
Now we know why.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/05/crumbling-case.htm

The rate of teen pregnancy in Texas
While the national teen birth rate has slowed, Texas has made far less headway, alarming public health officials and child advocates. .
Texas teens lead the nation in having babies. Last month, the nonprofit group Child Trends conferred another No. 1 ranking on Texas. In the latest statistics available, 24 percent of the state's teen births in 2004 were not the girl's first delivery.
"That astounded me," said Kathryn Allen, senior vice president for community relations at Planned Parenthood of North Texas. "I mean, what are we doing wrong?"

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...nbirths_05tex.ART.State.Edition2.4238fb3.html

#3 The Validity of the Intital Raid

Authorities knew before hand not only that Dale Barlow wasn't on the ranch (they'd spoken to him by phone and confirmed he was in Arizona), but they knew the supposed caller wasn't from Texas. According to the petition (if you want to read the whole thing, download the ginormous 75-page pdf file;
http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/search?q=flds

also

As CPS prepared to visit the ranch, Texas Rangers asked the agency to hold off until it readied its own response. That helps explain why four days lapsed between the call - now known to be a hoax - and the raid, initiated on April 3.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9534517

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, have you heard about No Child Left Behind and the End of Grade testing before they can be promoted. This has been in place in the public schools in this country for years. They are no longer graduating people who cannot read.