The Rope and the knots

[*Lash*]

SDSO's explanation -

How did she learn these complex knots?
We don’t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca’s wrists. Simply stated, this is one of those questions which will most likely never be answered with any certainty.

Were there prints and DNA on the rope?
Rebecca’s DNA was found on the rope, particularly in areas that would have to be manipulated to tie the knots. Only Rebecca’s DNA was found on these items other than one “artifact,” which is a fragment of material that could be DNA, but does not contain enough information to determine who, or what, it came from (animals and plants also have DNA that can be left behind). The rope could not be fingerprinted.

Red = convenient pattern in this case.

Dark red = another convenient pattern, DNA that was to small to be analyzed.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

 

[Betty P]

I'm bringing down the link to Dr. Drew's interview with Lindsey Philpott, the rope expert who worked on the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2011/09/08/knotting-expert-talks-rebecca-zahau-case?hpt=dr_bn1

Philpott agrees it would be extremely difficult for someone with no experience to tie these knots, particularly a distressed woman preparing to commit suicide.

Note also the difference between the type of rope used by Philpott and that used to tie RZ. It's not the same type of rope. The tow rope is much stiffer, more coarse an would seem difficult to work with.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/Becky 2013/becky_wrists_1_lores_zps76ec0218.jpg

 

[Betty P]

SDSO's explanation -

How did she learn these complex knots?
We don’t believe she did. These knots were not as complex as they have been made out to be, which is what we discovered when we attempted to recreate the knots on Rebecca’s wrists. Simply stated, this is one of those questions which will most likely never be answered with any certainty.

Were there prints and DNA on the rope?
Rebecca’s DNA was found on the rope, particularly in areas that would have to be manipulated to tie the knots. Only Rebecca’s DNA was found on these items other than one “artifact,” which is a fragment of material that could be DNA, but does not contain enough information to determine who, or what, it came from (animals and plants also have DNA that can be left behind). The rope could not be fingerprinted.

Red = convenient pattern in this case.

Dark red = another convenient pattern, DNA that was to small to be analyzed.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/faq.html

It explains why there was tape residue on RZ's legs, but none in the room or house. Rope is easier to handle than tape when you're wearing gloves. Someone realized that using tape to bind RZ was cumbersome with gloves and made the switch to rope. Hence, no chance of leaving DNA.

IIRC, on expert said rope is a difficult material for finding DNA traces.

http://trialwatchnetwork.com/death-investigation-rebecca-zahau-analysis/

 

[bourne]

Another question I have about the knots and rope - if, as SDSO alleges, RZ had the skills and practice to bind her arms, legs and neck in this intricate manner, why did she supposedly have to go retrieve a boat tow rope from the garage to do so? If, as some allege, she practiced this type of rope tying as a hobby, why were there no other ropes at the crime scene, in the house, etc? There were no other ropes in the house, or one would assume SDSO would have taken them as evidence.

So how does one become an expert at tying these intricate knots, cutting specific lengths of rope, etc. without ever having practiced it before?

I think it's ludicrous for LE to make allegations that Rebecca had the skills and practice to bind herself without actually finding any physical evidence to support their allegations.

As you say, if Rebecca regularly used ropes to bind herself, you'd find more ropes laying around the house. So where are all those ropes she used?

Additionally, one would think if people who enjoyed rope tying would use ropes WITHOUT a handle -- for both aesthetic reasons and because the handle at the end of the rope just makes rope tying most impractical and inconvenient. The handle gets in the way of tying the rope! So why out of all those ropes Rebecca supposed could have used since rope-tying is her hobby did she go and used a long tugboat rope that one would need to cut into pieces? Why not use the ropes she supposedly already had laying around, ones which would have been easy to tie, given what I would presume to be much shorter lengths?

IF in fact Rebecca wanted to commit suicide, why would she go through all that trouble to find a LENGTHY tugboat rope, then get several knives in order to cut the rope with when she presumably had used shorter ropes before to bind or play with in prior occasions? That is illogical. A distressed person doesn't make things HARDER for themselves. They find EASY WAYS OUT. That's a simple fact of human psychology. SDLE needs a psychology expert in their department. BADLY.

 

[*Lash*]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQu62Lz1tJ8"]Forensic Expert Examines Zahau Case[/ame]

 

[bourne]

I'm bringing down the link to Dr. Drew's interview with Lindsey Philpott, the rope expert who worked on the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2011/09/08/knotting-expert-talks-rebecca-zahau-case?hpt=dr_bn1

Philpott agrees it would be extremely difficult for someone with no experience to tie these knots, particularly a distressed woman preparing to commit suicide.

Note also the difference between the type of rope used by Philpott and that used to tie RZ. It's not the same type of rope. The tow rope is much stiffer, more coarse an would seem difficult to work with.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/Becky 2013/becky_wrists_1_lores_zps76ec0218.jpg

Thanks for these links!

I just saw the pic of the bindings around Rebecca's wrists. Her fingernails and hands seem to be steeped in grime. I'll bet anything the grime in her hands and in the crevices of her fingernails, just like the heavy dirt under her feet and between her toes, are soil from the courtyard. This suggests she was barefoot and soaking wet, running away from her attackers, and someone jumped or knocked her down and dragged her while she dug at the soil with her nails in resistance. Nobody gets their hands & feet that dirty when their hands & feet are dry. So here's evidence suggesting strongly Rebecca was ambushed and attacked in the shower because had she been suicidal, even a suicidal person would DRY THEMSELVES WITH A TOWEL before hanging because WATER dripping from their body would make it hard for them to put noose around their slippery neck with their wet hands and the slippery hands and body would make it difficult for her to bind her own wrists and ankles.

A scenario I can easily picture is that after Rebecca stopped texting her sister at around 9:30pm Tuesday, she decided to shower to head to bed. The attackers surprised a nude Rebecca in the shower. Dragged her out of shower, maybe pulling her hair (police reports indicated there were big clumps of hair found in shower and that Rebecca didn't even put a tampon in when she was having her menses). But Rebecca managed to escape her attackers and ran into the courtyard, screaming for HELP and that's when ear-witnesses in her neighborhood heard a woman screaming for HELP. Maybe Rebecca even expected Adam to help, but instead he joined the other murderer(s) and helped complete the torture, assault, murder, and cover-up.

Don't forget Nina claimed she texted Rebecca at 9:40pm (even though Rebecca's phone records indicate Nina had texted at 10:40pm), and after this Nina's suspicious text asking to "come over and talk with" Rebecca about Max in the middle of the night, Rebecca NEVER used her phone again except for someone (likely Rebecca's murderers) retrieving her voicemails at 12:45am Wed and deleting Jonah's voicemail. So for all intents and purposes, we can reasonably say that Rebecca was either assaulted or in the process of being assaulted right after Nina's 9:40pm or 10:40pm text message. Coincidence? I believe NOT.

 

[STS-135]

For re-creation, I used brand-new, straight out of bag two-rider tow rope used for water-skiing, Jet-skis, etc, boating. It did not kink up and knotted fairly easily, but I found it extremely difficult to do tidy knots as appeared in LE demo. Also, difficult to deal with that length of rope when knotting, and wrist bindings were equal, suggesting they were done first.

I recall reading that there was some sort of covering material with some sort of label still attached to one end of what to me too appears to be a marine tow rope - specially in a seafront community. The covering and label alone should help us identify where such a rope could've come from, if not necessarily how it got there; but just knowing what the rope was intended to be used for might help identify who could've had access to it and where. The hard part, of course, would be how to prove it without LE support...

Does anyone else remember seeing the rope's description and photos with the covering and what appeared to be a warning or instruction label of sorts?

Waiting to catch up on possible replies on Monday is going to be rough, because I'm not going to be anywhere near a computer this weekend; and I strongly believe that the rope alone is not only central to this travesty of a case, but potentially also one of only two or three clues which could still lead to a new set of discoveries and new evidence.

 

[cynic]

I recall reading that there was some sort of covering material with some sort of label still attached to one end of what to me too appears to be a marine tow rope - specially in a seafront community. The covering and label alone should help us identify where such a rope could've come from, if not necessarily how it got there; but just knowing what the rope was intended to be used for might help identify who could've had access to it and where. The hard part, of course, would be how to prove it without LE support...

Does anyone else remember seeing the rope's description and photos with the covering and what appeared to be a warning or instruction label of sorts?

Waiting to catch up on possible replies on Monday is going to be rough, because I'm not going to be anywhere near a computer this weekend; and I strongly believe that the rope alone is not only central to this travesty of a case, but potentially also one of only two or three clues which could still lead to a new set of discoveries and new evidence.

I don’t recall seeing any pictures but we have this description from the AR:
“The decedent hand and feet were bound with an orange colored rope.”
[SNIP]
“All the rope referred to in the description of the neck ligature and the bindings of the hands and feet are similar in appearance. Unless otherwise specified it is reddish-orange, braided, synthetic, and 7/16 in diameter.”
[SNIP]
“The right ankle has six loops and the left has eight. There is a knot on the proximal right lower leg exiting anteriority. There is a second similar knot on the left ankle. Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope, which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things that it is “...intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”

 

[Betty P]

In any scenario, the binding with tape and 4 blows to the head also have to be considered. IMO, the attack played out over a period of time, giving the perps time to plan and organize the crime scene before leaving. I think this was discussed before, but it seems possible RZ was trapped and bound with tape to a chair (possibly the one in the bedroom that was tipped over). Someone may have hit her on the head while demanding answers about MZ's death.

RZ's estimated time of death was between 1 and 3 am. That left a lot of time for assault, killing, clean up and staging of the scene.

 

[time]

I don't see a good place to put this, but someone brought up the gloves yesterday. Neither the black nitrile/latex glove nor the black gloves seem to appear on these diagrams. Does anyone remember if their position/exact location was posted?

 

[*Lash*]

I don't see a good place to put this, but someone brought up the gloves yesterday. Neither the black nitrile/latex glove nor the black gloves seem to appear on these diagrams. Does anyone remember if their position/exact location was posted?

From the SDSO Nov 17th, 2011 briefing. Lab Director Grubb stated the black gardening gloves were found from a table at the scene. Item #2 is not shown anywhere in the diagrams.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
Real quick. Was there mixed DNA found anywhere else in terms of the -- I think Ms. Bremner said on the show there was mixed DNA found on gloves, on the bed frame, and on the knife. Is there mixed DNA on those items?

GRUBB:
I'll run this down for you fairly quickly. Overwhelmingly, in 10 of the 11 rope segments -- err -- samples from the rope was Rebecca Zahau’s DNA that was found. In one of those samples there was a fragment of DNA from some other source, absolutely un- interpretable. There was a low level of DNA un-interpretable on the large knife from the bedroom floor. There was a low-level mixture of DNA not interpretable on a doorknob to the balcony. Those are the mixtures that I think she was -- and the black gardening gloves that were recovered from a table at the scene? Again, a low level mixture, un- interpretable.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

 

[time]

Hmm... what about the one black latex (I say nitrile) glove, inside and out. And, do they ever say DNA was looked for inside the pair of gloves found on the table?

I see we discussed this before:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8323181"]Rebecca's Death - Page 13 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9145520"]Zahau Death Investigation - Page 4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


I think pinning down that one black latex glove is important as far as DNA. Sometimes what is omitted is the most interesting. And, frankly, I'm not nearly as concerned with those black garden gloves.

Who has just one black latex glove lying around anyway?

 

[inthedark14]

Hmm... what about the one black latex (I say nitrile) glove, inside and out. And, do they ever say DNA was looked for inside the pair of gloves found on the table?

I see we discussed this before:

Rebecca's Death - Page 13 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Zahau Death Investigation - Page 4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I think pinning down that one black latex glove is important as far as DNA. Sometimes what is omitted is the most interesting. And, frankly, I'm not nearly as concerned with those black garden gloves.

Who has just one black latex glove lying around anyway?

It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[time]

It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOO

Yeah, I agree! And, they conveniently forgot to mention it's too odd that only one latex glove was found, let alone, look for a box of gloves or where that one came from.

 

[Betty P]

It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOO

or it could have been brought from elsewhere.

 

[STS-135]

:floorlaugh: Thank you!! I needed to giggle about now!! Seriously sounds far fetched that someone would worry about foot prints on a balcony if they were foing to jump off said balcony to end their life.

If AS tossed RZ over the railing, he probably wasn't even thinking about footprints. He was, however, likely afraid to be seen on the balcony tying a knot or tossing her body. And, if the he turned the light(s) in the room off prior to pushing her over, he wouldn't have even seen the dust so late in the night. IMHO, AS just got lucky in this respect.

 

[Betty P]

Questions about the gloves:

1. There's never been an answer, that I can find, that explains the presence of the gloves at the crime scene. What possible use would they be to RZ? Her fingerprints and/or DNA were left on the paintbrush and many other items in the room. Why would she have gloves and why wouldn't she use them.

2. Why were there 2 different types of gloves, one latex, the other a pair of gardening gloves? Why would she need to different types of gloves, especially if she had no use for them?

3. Where did the gardening gloves come from? Where were they stored and would someone have to go outside the house to retrieve them?

I'll add my own answer for the first question. The perpetrators of RZ's murder needed some way to explain the fact that some of the items at the crime scene had no fingerprints at all, not even RZ's - they had been wiped clean. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but hasn't it been speculated in the past that at least one or some of the possible perps has a history of substance abuse and may have been under the influence that night?

 

[bourne]

Questions about the gloves:

1. There's never been an answer, that I can find, that explains the presence of the gloves at the crime scene. What possible use would they be to RZ? Her fingerprints and/or DNA were left on the paintbrush and many other items in the room. Why would she have gloves and why wouldn't she use them.

2. Why were there 2 different types of gloves, one latex, the other a pair of gardening gloves? Why would she need to different types of gloves, especially if she had no use for them?

3. Where did the gardening gloves come from? Where were they stored and would someone have to go outside the house to retrieve them?

I'll add my own answer for the first question. The perpetrators of RZ's murder needed some way to explain the fact that some of the items at the crime scene had no fingerprints at all, not even RZ's - they had been wiped clean. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but hasn't it been speculated in the past that at least one or some of the possible perps has a history of substance abuse and may have been under the influence that night?

Excellent Q's! Why the need for gloves if Rebecca used her bare hands and left prints/DNA on various items such as bedpost, one knife, rope, paintbrush, etc.? The only thing that makes sense is that some drunken, raging, vengeful murderer went overboard in "staging items" in this "overkill" of a crime scene.

 

[bourne]

I don’t recall seeing any pictures but we have this description from the AR:
“The decedent hand and feet were bound with an orange colored rope.”
[SNIP]
“All the rope referred to in the description of the neck ligature and the bindings of the hands and feet are similar in appearance. Unless otherwise specified it is reddish-orange, braided, synthetic, and 7/16 in diameter.”
[SNIP]
“The right ankle has six loops and the left has eight. There is a knot on the proximal right lower leg exiting anteriority. There is a second similar knot on the left ankle. Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope, which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things that it is “...intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”

YES! And is the looping technique (six on right and eight on left, and then a knot on the right and then second knot on left) typical of the type of nautical rope-tying that Adam or Dina or Nina does while tugboating and/or yachting?

 

[bourne]

If AS tossed RZ over the railing, he probably wasn't even thinking about footprints. He was, however, likely afraid to be seen on the balcony tying a knot or tossing her body. And, if the he turned the light(s) in the room off prior to pushing her over, he wouldn't have even seen the dust so late in the night. IMHO, AS just got lucky in this respect.

You're correct, except that remember Dina used to reside yearly at the Spreckels mansion for vacation prior to Rebecca becoming Jonah's gf. So Dina of all the defendants would know EXACTLY how dust accumulates on the balcony during the times she and Jonah did not spend time at the Spreckels.

Also, remember by Dina and Nina and Jonah's own verbal statements given to the police, Dina had DISAPPEARED from the hospital Tuesday from 6am to at least 6pm (according to Jonah) and 8pm (according to Dina herself). So Dina had plenty of time to SCOPE OUT the Spreckels balcony and murder room to determine where to lay the instruments of murder out (rope, knives, paintbrushes, gloves, etc.) It would be reasonable to assume that Dina would have seen the dusty balcony. We know that the murderers could not be caught "dusting" the balcony as it is visible by the public and neighbors so they did not clean up the balcony.

Moreover, since Rebecca was OUT OF THE Spreckels Mansion the entire day of Tuesday until 8pm when she returned with Adam, AND according to Sheriff Gore, someone used Rebecca's laptop and home computer to search for in the mid-afternoon on Tuesday, that could have been when this sicko murderer(s) snuck into the Spreckels mansion and planted the searches to incriminate Rebecca.