The Rope and the knots

[IQuestion]

Excellent Q's! Why the need for gloves if Rebecca used her bare hands and left prints/DNA on various items such as bedpost, one knife, rope, paintbrush, etc.? The only thing that makes sense is that some drunken, raging, vengeful murderer went overboard in "staging items" in this "overkill" of a crime scene.

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I did see a photo of police officers in the courtyard wearing black-nitrile gloves. Are the officers supposed to remove their gloves and give them to the evidence collection team when they are through? If so, it appears someone may have simply misplaced a glove? Just my thought.

 

[bourne]

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I did see a photo of police officers in the courtyard wearing black-nitrile gloves. Are the officers supposed to remove their gloves and give them to the evidence collection team when they are through? If so, it appears someone may have simply misplaced a glove? Just my thought.

From what I recall, there were two pairs of gloves found at the crime scene, and one glove that was found lying elsewhere in the Spreckels mansion. I could see, with some careless LE allegedly leaving his own bootprint at the murder balcony, that this same cop or another one within this negligent department, might have also left a glove at the mansion. However, there were two other pairs of gloves which I very much doubt were left at the crime scene BY ACCIDENT by LE. I believe these two pairs of gloves were further "staging items" by the lunatic murderers in their "overkill" of Rebecca.

 

[time]

From what I recall, there were two pairs of gloves found at the crime scene, and one glove that was found lying elsewhere in the Spreckels mansion. I could see, with some careless LE allegedly leaving his own bootprint at the murder balcony, that this same cop or another one within this negligent department, might have also left a glove at the mansion. However, there were two other pairs of gloves which I very much doubt were left at the crime scene BY ACCIDENT by LE. I believe these two pairs of gloves were further "staging items" by the lunatic murderers in their "overkill" of Rebecca.

I'm a little confused. I believe there was one pair of gloves and one single glove. If there was another 'pair', where? Don't mind my Sunday morning rhyming

The pair was black garden gloves and I think found outside.

The one glove was black nitrile/latex and I think found int he balcony room.

I see your point about staging, very interesting. However, why does it appear LE didn't mention it much (if at all) after the search warrant if it in fact, would possibly help explain suicide. Unless I'm missing something, I tend to believe that black nitrile glove was mistakenly left behind by the killer and LE doesn't want to deal with the question of DNA.

 

[bourne]

I'm a little confused. I believe there was one pair of gloves and one single glove. If there was another 'pair', where? Don't mind my Sunday morning rhyming

The pair was black garden gloves and I think found outside.

The one glove was black nitrile/latex and I think found int he balcony room.

I see your point about staging, very interesting. However, why does it appear LE didn't mention it much (if at all) after the search warrant if it in fact, would possibly help explain suicide. Unless I'm missing something, I tend to believe that black nitrile glove was mistakenly left behind by the killer and LE doesn't want to deal with the question of DNA.

I haven't revisited the evidence files of this case in a long time. But I'm sure someone here can check and see how many gloves (pairs or single glove) were entered into evidence by LE.

Regardless, if what you're saying is true, that the murderer(s) had inadvertently left the gloves they wore at the crime scene, then it should be easy to forensically analyze the glove or gloves for their DNA, and if the DNA/prints match anyone other than Rebecca, then, by god, you have solved the case!

I suppose the point is: Did the Zahau investigators get those gloves you believe Rebecca's murderer(s) left behind from LE? And had the Zahau investigators forensically examined all the evidence (including the gloves) for DNA/prints, etc.?

To me, the fact that the Zahaus didn't have a press conference stating that they found DNA/prints of one of the defendants in the gloves or any of the other evidence (knives, paintbrushes, rope, etc.) means that they found no other person's DNA/prints on those items except for Rebecca's. So I would discount the gloves as being worn by the murderer(s).

 

[time]

bourne ... if they had ALL the evidence then why did Rudoy and Fleck file a complaint to get access to it (May 2013). I have the feeling in cases deemed 'not criminal' that LE is very loosey goosey about all this anyway. I do not think they allowed the Zahau's or their attorneys to examine all the evidence, let alone restest anything. Plus, I just don't see where anything has been reported on the one black latex glove about DNA.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209218"]Zahau Family Sues County for Additional Evidence - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[bourne]

bourne ... if they had ALL the evidence then why did Rudoy and Fleck file a complaint to get access to it (May 2013). I have the feeling in cases deemed 'not criminal' that LE is very loosey goosey about all this anyway. I do not think they allowed the Zahau's or their attorneys to examine all the evidence, let alone restest anything. Plus, I just don't see where anything has been reported on the one black latex glove about DNA.

Zahau Family Sues County for Additional Evidence - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I never said the Zahaus had ALL the evidence. I questioned whether they had the gloves as evidence, and if they did, I would hope they would have examined them forensically. Nowhere did I read in the MSM articles whereby the civil suit the Zahaus brought against the SD county LE and ME offices that they sought the GLOVES as the evidence that were missing in the Zahau files. What they did specifically ask for were the actual 911 tape of Adam for which there was missing audio, and Rebecca's cellphone and computer. If you can direct me to where the Zahaus sought GLOVES, that'd be helpful. Until then, I am going with my educated opinion that the Zahaus received all other evidence (including GLOVES) except those they specified in the lawsuit.

 

[time]

I never said the Zahaus had ALL the evidence. I questioned whether they had the gloves as evidence, and if they did, I would hope they would have examined them forensically. Nowhere did I read in the MSM articles whereby the civil suit the Zahaus brought against the SD county LE and ME offices that they sought the GLOVES as the evidence that were missing in the Zahau files. What they did specifically ask for were the actual 911 tape of Adam for which there was missing audio, and Rebecca's cellphone and computer. If you can direct me to where the Zahaus sought GLOVES, that'd be helpful. Until then, I am going with my educated opinion that the Zahaus received all other evidence (including GLOVES) except those they specified in the lawsuit.

They asked for access to all technical evidence including ALL DNA evidence, plus, they asked for all forensic evidence - I think that would cover the gloves.

BBM - It's just my opinion, but I don't think there is anyway they would have actually given them physical evidence like the gloves. They didn't get Rebecca's personal belongings back. It doesn't even sound like they got all transcripts, etc.

 

[bourne]

They asked for access to all technical evidence including ALL DNA evidence, plus, they asked for all forensic evidence - I think that would cover the gloves.

BBM - It's just my opinion, but I don't think there is anyway they would have actually given them physical evidence like the gloves. They didn't get Rebecca's personal belongings back. It doesn't even sound like they got all transcripts, etc.

Well, if the Zahau investigators didn't get the gloves, etc. then obviously, they wouldn't have been able to forensically examine them.

I've taken the liberty of asking an insider whether they did or not. When I receive an answer, I'll let you know.

Until then, I believe it's highly unlikely that the murderer(s) would have been so absentminded and careless as to leave gloves that they had actually worn to commit Rebecca's murder at the crime scene. But then, hey, there have been "dumb criminals" and that's why some of them get caught. Hopefully that's the case here. Honestly though, if the murder was premeditated, and I believe it was -- brewing and stewing in the murderer(s)' mind for a long time, then I'm almost 100% certain this murderer would not be so negligent as to leave self-incriminating evidence behind. That's my honest assessment.

 

[bourne]

I just spoke with a friend who works in law enforcement. He says the Zahaus would not have received any evidence apart from Rebecca's own personal belongings due to "chain of custody" and other legalities. So Zahaus would not have received the gloves or rope or any of the other physical evidence that is not personally owned by Rebecca.

But then, if you think about it, if the LE truly believed Rebecca committed suicide, then the ropes, knives, paintbrushes, gloves, etc. that she was presumed to have used in her own suicide should by its very definition be hers, right?

Anyhow, that's what my friend the LE says. So perhaps when the Zahaus finally get their hands on the physical evidence incl. the gloves, they'll be able to check for DNA/prints. Maybe you're right. Maybe the murderer(s) were dumb enough to leave the gloves they wore to commit the crime behind. *shrugs*

 

[time]

In my mind the murderer was stupid (and, I still can't believe SDSO wants us to believe any of it, they just know they can get away with it).

The whole scene LOOKS like a cold blooded, rage fueled murder with a lot of anger and intentional humiliation.

The murderer was stupid enough to write that note on the door too.

If there were two people there, who knows if one was cleaning up while the other was doing something else and later...oops, we forgot something. I guess it could also be that a glove was thrown in there to throw things off and complete the staging. Either way, the glove is forensically significant. I still say if it had Rebecca's DNA in it SDSO would have been shouting it from the rooftop. If no DNA, then that seems like a clue also. It's silly to think Rebecca went and got one black latex glove to paint the message on the door.

One other note: We don't know just how careless or not the murderer really was because no one other than SDSO has examined all the evidence. As far as we know they shoved that one black gove under the rug, so to speak, and decided not to test for any DNA. That way it couldn't have contradicted their theory. If they hid testing like that it would be much bigger trouble for them. Plus, IIRC they never asked for a sample of Dina's DNA, did they?

 

[IQuestion]

I haven't revisited the evidence files of this case in a long time. But I'm sure someone here can check and see how many gloves (pairs or single glove) were entered into evidence by LE.

Regardless, if what you're saying is true, that the murderer(s) had inadvertently left the gloves they wore at the crime scene, then it should be easy to forensically analyze the glove or gloves for their DNA, and if the DNA/prints match anyone other than Rebecca, then, by god, you have solved the case!

I suppose the point is: Did the Zahau investigators get those gloves you believe Rebecca's murderer(s) left behind from LE? And had the Zahau investigators forensically examined all the evidence (including the gloves) for DNA/prints, etc.?

To me, the fact that the Zahaus didn't have a press conference stating that they found DNA/prints of one of the defendants in the gloves or any of the other evidence (knives, paintbrushes, rope, etc.) means that they found no other person's DNA/prints on those items except for Rebecca's. So I would discount the gloves as being worn by the murderer(s).

BOURNE & TIME I'm just going to cut in for a second, ok? On the first Dr. Phil show Anne Bremner DID SAY there is mixed DNA on several items including the BED POST AND GLOVES AND KNIVES etc. The excerpt begins at 1:36 of this video link,
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RLwbp6ITQs"]DrPZ 1D - YouTube[/ame]
Since a lot of info has transpired over the last 2 years, it took me a while to find it. She (AB) also said SDSO failed to test DNA from several people...go figure?

 

[bourne]

BOURNE & TIME I'm just going to cut in for a second, ok? On the first Dr. Phil show Anne Bremner DID SAY there is mixed DNA on several items including the BED POST AND GLOVES AND KNIVES etc. The excerpt begins at 1:36 of this video link,
DrPZ 1D - YouTube
Since a lot of info has transpired over the last 2 years, it took me a while to find it. She (AB) also said SDSO failed to test DNA from several people...go figure?

LOL @ IQuestion. Of course you can interject. Our minor squabble over gloves, to me, is very silly. Your point is well-taken but I don't think that resolves the basic dispute we were having which is, do you believe that the murderer(s) left the gloves they worn to murder Rebecca at the crime scene?

It's reasonable to wonder how absolutely inane the murderers could be to forget the gloves they were wearing to commit a heinous crime when it appears that those are the ONLY items they should have remembered to take with him as they exit the Spreckels mansion. Besides their "pink wristlet" and "big black bag" and their own bodies, there was NOTHING ELSE they need to take OUT of the mansion except the gloves they wore!

To me, even if the murderer(s) had FORGOTTEN and CARELESSLY left the glove(s) at the crime scene, they would have double-checked once they left the mansion and looked at their bag/hands and realized by golly, they had left our glove(s) at the crime scene, and could always have GONE BACK to the mansion which was within walking distance to Dina's home and get those incriminating gloves. It was still dark out and there were many hours in the late morning until 6am when Adam allegedly found Rebecca hanging...

Anyhow, we all have our own ways of interpreting and speculating. :rockon:

 

[*Lash*]

Someone asked about the rope description. I found this in Rule's book.

“The towrope was seven-sixteenths of an inch thick, and the handle had a warning that read, “Intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.”

 

[time]

BOURNE & TIME I'm just going to cut in for a second, ok? On the first Dr. Phil show Anne Bremner DID SAY there is mixed DNA on several items including the BED POST AND GLOVES AND KNIVES etc. The excerpt begins at 1:36 of this video link,
DrPZ 1D - YouTube
Since a lot of info has transpired over the last 2 years, it took me a while to find it. She (AB) also said SDSO failed to test DNA from several people...go figure?

Thanks you... I just can't tell if this is all three gloves or the pair of gloves. Yeh, and who would they compare DNA to even if they did claim they had it? I'm not automatically buying SDSO's explanation that DNA testing can't yield any informative results either. Mixed DNA is typable, but I think they also claimed it was degraded?

 

[defense101]

It's also interesting to note that nowhere on the search warrant were any boxes of gloves, black or otherwise, taken from the home. It is logical to assume that if there was one black latex glove in the hanging room, it had to come from somewhere in the house, and therefore a box of gloves should have been found.

ALWAYS MOO

I use john frieda hair coloring, its latex gloves are black and as I only use one when coloring my hair I always have an extra one on hand, that may explain why there may not have been a box of gloves...maybe

 

[defense101]

I don’t recall seeing any pictures but we have this description from the AR:
“The decedent hand and feet were bound with an orange colored rope.”
[SNIP]
“All the rope referred to in the description of the neck ligature and the bindings of the hands and feet are similar in appearance. Unless otherwise specified it is reddish-orange, braided, synthetic, and 7/16 in diameter.”
[SNIP]
“The right ankle has six loops and the left has eight. There is a knot on the proximal right lower leg exiting anteriority. There is a second similar knot on the left ankle. Wrapped within the bindings is a yellow plastic tube which encircles one strand of thicker rope, which appears to be a water sport tow rope handle. There is a warning on the yellow handle stating among other things that it is “...intended only for towing up to a maximum of two people or 340 pounds on an inflatable tube.”

BBM This is what I have trouble with, would someone who was chasing her take the time to loop the rope through the handle with a struggling woman, or was she strangled prior to hanging thus making it easier to accomplish this?

 

[Betty P]

BBM This is what I have trouble with, would someone who was chasing her take the time to loop the rope through the handle with a struggling woman, or was she strangled prior to hanging thus making it easier to accomplish this?

In Rebecca's autopsy report, the ME concluded she was alive at the time of hanging. Dr.Cyril Wecht suggested that, because of the four blows to her head, she may have been alive but unconscious just prior to the hanging.

It seems the most likely she was bound then.

 

[time]

I use john frieda hair coloring, its latex gloves are black and as I only use one when coloring my hair I always have an extra one on hand, that may explain why there may not have been a box of gloves...maybe

That's interesting, but who would be coloring their hair in the mansion? I can't see it would be Rebecca or XZ for obvious reasons.

 

[defense101]

In Rebecca's autopsy report, the ME concluded she was alive at the time of hanging. Dr.Cyril Wecht suggested that, because of the four blows to her head, she may have been alive but unconscious just prior to the hanging.

It seems the most likely she was bound then.

But do you think they would take the time to pull the cord all the way through the handle? I can't see it myself, believe me, I am in the this is a murder opinion but this is something that doesn't seem likely to me. Wouldn't they just wrap the cord around her ankles and tie it together if she was unconscious?

 

[Carioca]

But do you think they would take the time to pull the cord all the way through the handle? I can't see it myself, believe me, I am in the this is a murder opinion but this is something that doesn't seem likely to me. Wouldn't they just wrap the cord around her ankles and tie it together if she was unconscious?

I think there's a good chance she was suffocated (does that sound like a familiar M.O. ala MS, along with her cg under height of railing making it impossible for her to propel herself over unattended?).

First her hands were bound, then her ankles were bound (maybe hogtied at that point), then noose put around neck, then t-shirt over noose. They wrap that darn t-shirt around her neck 3 times, tighter and tighter, so tight she can't breath, essentially strangling her. Then they stick the ends of those sleeves into her mouth to make sure she doesn't scream out "just in case". Her airway is blocked, she suffocates yet is still alive (unconscious), then she is tossed over the railing. The 9 ft 2 in drop causes great damage to her neck, but doesn't break it. Maybe the cushioning of the shirt that was supporting her neck like a brace, plus her being unconscious, thus no resistance, prevented the typical long drop damage.

Note 1: all this didn't necessarily happen above the balcony. Could have been below.

Note 2: I began responding to your comment Defense101, then my mind went off in a totally different tangent. Therefore, I am not actually addressing you or your comment. sorry :blushing: Am too lazy to move it somewhere else...