The Shoe Lace Bindings

[Compassionate Reader]

OK. This is down and dirty (because it's late and I have to get up early in the am).

First, I was wrong about Steven having the white laces in his shoes. It was Michael. Pam had said that Steven had new or almost new black laces in his white shoes. One of Christopher's shoes still had the lace in it, and that lace was black. So, by process of elimination, Michael had white laces.

Next, let's look at the length of the laces. Steven's ligatures consisted of one black lace (approx 45" long, used to tie the right wrist to the right ankle) and one white lace (approx 34" long, used to tie the left wrist to the left ankle). Christopher's ligatures consisted of one black lace (approx 30" long, used to tie the right wrist to the right ankle) and one white lace (approx 34" long, used to tie the left wrist to the left ankle). Michael's laces are the most interesting because they were described by Lisa Sakevicius as "pieces of laces" instead of laces. This was apparently determined because both of Michael's ligatures had aiglets only on one end. Both of Michael's ligatures were black, the one on the right side measuring approximately 31" and the one on the left measuring approximately 29". All of these measurements can be verified by checking the evidence lists on Callahan's.

Now comes the interesting part. Since a lace was left in one of Christopher's shoes, where did the six laces used to hog tie the boys come from? First, IMO, it's obvious that the two white laces, both about 34" in length, came from Michael's shoes. I don't recall if the other lace from Christopher's shoe was measured. However, the two intact black laces were of differing lengths. I hadn't realized just how "different" in length the intact laces were. It has caused me to rethink my assessment of the ligatures.

Since Steven and Christopher had black laces in their shoes, but one of Christopher's laces was still in the shoe, I now think that the 30" lace was from the shoe of one boy and the 45" lace was from the shoe of the other boy. Either a 30" lace or a 45" lace (depending on the length of the lace remaining in Christopher's shoe) was broken and discarded by the killer. So, he improvised and removed one black lace from his own shoe (TH wore LA Gear knock-offs at the time, and one of Pam's sisters noticed one lace in one shoe missing shortly after the murders) and cut it into two pieces, creating the "pieces of laces" Sakevicius mentioned as Michael's bindings.

So, one black lace remained in one shoe. One black lace was broken and taken away from the scene by the killer. The other two black laces and both white laces were used to bind Steven and Christopher. Michael was bound with an adult lace, about 60" long, that was cut into two pieces. At the time of the murders, wearing double laces in LA Gear shoes was quite a popular fad. As I said before, TH wore LA Gear knock-offs, according to Pam and one of her sisters.

(Another possibility is that the 45" lace left a little too much slack. So, it was not used and was presumably left in Christopher's shoe. That would mean that a 30" lace, presumably from Steven's shoe, broke. The killer, realizing that he'd need another lace and not liking the 45" lace anyway, improvised and used one of his own adult laces - about 60" long - cut in two pieces. I hope this makes sense! It's 2 am here, and I'm going cross-eyed!)

Much of what I've discussed here is discussed in great detail (including charts) here. Some of you may not believe my theory, but I see it as very plausible. Again, much of the work was done by the one posting the charts, etc. at the link provided.

I will readily admit that this theory isn't the only possible scenario. However, I think it's the correct one. Until someone can present a more logical explanation for the bindings, it's the one I believe.

 

[primitivefuture]

OK. This is down and dirty (because it's late and I have to get up early in the am).

First, I was wrong about Steven having the white laces in his shoes. It was Michael. Pam had said that Steven had new or almost new black laces in his white shoes. One of Christopher's shoes still had the lace in it, and that lace was black. So, by process of elimination, Michael had white laces.

Next, let's look at the length of the laces. Steven's ligatures consisted of one black lace (approx 45" long, used to tie the right wrist to the right ankle) and one white lace (approx 34" long, used to tie the left wrist to the left ankle). Christopher's ligatures consisted of one black lace (approx 30" long, used to tie the right wrist to the right ankle) and one white lace (approx 34" long, used to tie the left wrist to the left ankle). Michael's laces are the most interesting because they were described by Lisa Sakevicius as "pieces of laces" instead of laces. This was apparently determined because both of Michael's ligatures had aiglets only on one end. Both of Michael's ligatures were black, the one on the right side measuring approximately 31" and the one on the left measuring approximately 29". All of these measurements can be verified by checking the evidence lists on Callahan's.

Now comes the interesting part. Since a lace was left in one of Christopher's shoes, where did the six laces used to hog tie the boys come from? First, IMO, it's obvious that the two white laces, both about 34" in length, came from Michael's shoes. I don't recall if the other lace from Christopher's shoe was measured. However, the two intact black laces were of differing lengths. I hadn't realized just how "different" in length the intact laces were. It has caused me to rethink my assessment of the ligatures.

Since Steven and Christopher had black laces in their shoes, but one of Christopher's laces was still in the shoe, I now think that the 30" lace was from the shoe of one boy and the 45" lace was from the shoe of the other boy. Either a 30" lace or a 45" lace (depending on the length of the lace remaining in Christopher's shoe) was broken and discarded by the killer. So, he improvised and removed one black lace from his own shoe (TH wore LA Gear knock-offs at the time, and one of Pam's sisters noticed one lace in one shoe missing shortly after the murders) and cut it into two pieces, creating the "pieces of laces" Sakevicius mentioned as Michael's bindings.

So, one black lace remained in one shoe. One black lace was broken and taken away from the scene by the killer. The other two black laces and both white laces were used to bind Steven and Christopher. Michael was bound with an adult lace, about 60" long, that was cut into two pieces. At the time of the murders, wearing double laces in LA Gear shoes was quite a popular fad. As I said before, TH wore LA Gear knock-offs, according to Pam and one of her sisters.

(Another possibility is that the 45" lace left a little too much slack. So, it was not used and was presumably left in Christopher's shoe. That would mean that a 30" lace, presumably from Steven's shoe, broke. The killer, realizing that he'd need another lace and not liking the 45" lace anyway, improvised and used one of his own adult laces - about 60" long - cut in two pieces. I hope this makes sense! It's 2 am here, and I'm going cross-eyed!)

Much of what I've discussed here is discussed in great detail (including charts) here. Some of you may not believe my theory, but I see it as very plausible. Again, much of the work was done by the one posting the charts, etc. at the link provided.

I will readily admit that this theory isn't the only possible scenario. However, I think it's the correct one. Until someone can present a more logical explanation for the bindings, it's the one I believe.

Wowie zowie. I've gone a little cross eyed over here as well. I made up my own chart as I read, before I got to the link to other charts. I'm going to reserve comment until I read over some posts from your link and let all the info you've provided sink in. Thank you.


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[UdbCrzy2]

CR, you have provided a link to a 'chart' that is inaccessible to anyone who is not a member or WM3.ORG. Why would you do that? Isn't there a chart that you can post without asking people to become a member of another message board?

 

[Miranda!]

CR isn't there a chart that you can post without asking people to become a member of another message board?

It was unintentional and all too easily done when one has been a long term member of a board!
Posting the chart is also a no-no in terms of board etiquette, like snag and drag! However, if readers click here they can at least view the diagram as a guest. I hope this helps.

By the way, the BB is not affiliated with wm3.org

 

[Ausgirl]

Sorry, Miranda, still getting the log-in page.

 

[Miranda!]

Sorry, Miranda, still getting the log-in page.

OK.
Try scrolling down a bit as you should have the whole index on the same page...if it is not click on the 'Home' which is at the start of a line of links - along the top underneath the log-in part! But make sure it is not too close to tip line number as that causes active links not to link!!

Then scroll down. . .

First Forum is 'News Stand' Ignore!

Next is 'West Memphis Three' for General Case Discussion

Click on 'West Memphis Three' and you will get that page. Scroll down, ignoring all the 'stickies' and scroll down to:- ' Paid's diagram of the laces' and you should get it! Not whole thread, but at least the diagram.

Hope this helps!

A lot of the forums are available for 'Guests'. However, as it is not a standard discussion board but a whole web-site with a discussion board component, owned by one of the family members of a victim, some of the topics are only available to members.

To any admins here, I am sorry if I have breached any rules here by explaining how your member can see the diagram on another board. As an admin there I had moved the particular diagram / schematic to a public area so that joining is not necessary to view it.

If you feel the need to edit this, or even delete, then, very obviously, I shall understand!

 

[Ausgirl]

Whew, made it!

Great diagram. It sure does put into perspective the length of the lace used on Michael.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Thanks, Miranda! I really thought that was on a "public" area of the board. My apologies to anyone who was stymied. Paid's work, IMO, was astounding.

 

[primitivefuture]

So, he improvised and removed one black lace from his own shoe (TH wore LA Gear knock-offs at the time, and one of Pam's sisters noticed one lace in one shoe missing shortly after the murders) and cut it into two pieces, creating the "pieces of laces" Sakevicius mentioned as Michael's bindings.

So, one black lace remained in one shoe. One black lace was broken and taken away from the scene by the killer. The other two black laces and both white laces were used to bind Steven and Christopher. Michael was bound with an adult lace, about 60" long, that was cut into two pieces. At the time of the murders, wearing double laces in LA Gear shoes was quite a popular fad. As I said before, TH wore LA Gear knock-offs, according to Pam and one of her sisters.

I wish we had a measurement for that lace left in Chris' shoe!

Do you know when it was that Pam's sister made the claim about noticing the lace missing from TH's shoe?

And do you know if there are any photographs or video footage from around the time of the crime where you can see Terry's shoes clearly?


Wouldn't it be nice if more attention had been paid to the laces and trying to determine the source of the adult lace back then?



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[Compassionate Reader]

I wish we had a measurement for that lace left in Chris' shoe!

Just another example of the ineptness of the wmpd!

Do you know when it was that Pam's sister made the claim about noticing the lace missing from TH's shoe?

Unfortunately, it was after the mtDNA information was released, which was after Pam and Terry were divorced. That makes the statement a little suspect, I know, but nonetheless the statement was made.

And do you know if there are any photographs or video footage from around the time of the crime where you can see Terry's shoes clearly?

Unfortunately, not to my knowledge. However, I wonder if those shoes were the ones that Pam threw into the non-functioning swimming pool - that Terry asked to have back. I don't know how that all came out, but the wmpd kept those shoes at the time, IIRC.

Wouldn't it be nice if more attention had been paid to the laces and trying to determine the source of the adult lace back then?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Definitely!

 

[NCSleuth]

Okay, most of you probably know I think the WM3 are guilty but if they are not I think the shoe laces bindings are the key to proving their innocence.

I have always wondered why the boys were tied up this way. If it was for transport why go to all that trouble. Why not just throw them over the shoulder. Wouldn’t that have been easier and quicker? It takes time to remove the laces and tie them up.
Anyone have any proof this is how hogs are tied up in the slaughterhouses? I have never seen anyone or anything tied like this (right arm to right leg, left arm to left leg). Normally with hogtied you think of tying the hands together then using the same rope to tie the legs together. Did they just not have enough ‘rope’ to do that so they improvised? Why not go from left arm to right leg and right arm to left leg?

The argument that there was no WM3 DNA is not a valid one. With the exception of one hair that might belong to TH there is no DNA of anyone. It was either not collected or washed away. If there was a ton of DNA from someone else (known or unknown), then the no WM3 DNA would be valid. Obviously DNA was washed away or just not preserved. The one hair that may or may not belong to TH doesn’t mean a thing.

So, anyone have a picture of hogs being transported or even tied up this way?

 

[Ausgirl]

I have never seen anyone or anything tied like this (right arm to right leg, left arm to left leg). Normally with hogtied you think of tying the hands together then using the same rope to tie the legs together. Did they just not have enough ‘rope’ to do that so they improvised? Why not go from left arm to right leg and right arm to left leg?

I found the method of tying really strange, too..

And I don't get how this is at all easier than just picking them up. They were not grown men or 200 pound hogs, they were just young kids. All this ferbuggiting about with laces and knots - idk. It seems way less practical than a shoulder hoist.

I think the reason behind it lies more in the mind of the killer, tbh. And I think there's a few skeezy types from the area who could have done something like that, and because it aesthetically appealed to them. The kids were --exposed-- in a humiliating way. Naked. I don't think that was just for transport, somehow.

The one place (and I am NOT elaborating.. lol...!) in which I have ever seen anything like this was in a bondage house. And the point of it was -- humiliation.

eta: idk.. maybe it's easier to think of some skeezy motive than those boys being treated like worthless beasts, or so much garbage. .. just gets me upset to think of it.

 

[21merc7]

Hog tying (poor little piggie )

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oUTZ8a2lxg"]Correct way to quick tie a hog - YouTube[/ame]

There are a few more videos on the side on youtube.

 

[Alyssa2013]

Maybe the perpetrator took all of their clothes off for 1) easier transport and 2) so that no DNA would transfer. I initially thought that humiliation had something to do with it but humiliation would require consciousness--otherwise it defeats the purpose IMO. I personally believe the boys were stripped naked AFTER they were struck unconscious. It just seems to make more sense. I agree that hog tying does take a little longer but the perpetrator knew how to do it pretty quickly most likely and maybe he wasn't too worried about time. He probably knew that he was the only one out there or he was calm enough to plan out his next move.

 

[Ausgirl]

Good points, Alyssa.

The fact that Michael was probably attacked prior to the bindings (as he had what looked like defensive wounds) supports that.

With the head wounds alone, there must have been a lot of blood.. so yup, avoiding blood/dna transfer makes sense, too.

Very organised behaviour, if so. Very cold.

I am not quite yet counting out a disappointed/spooked pedo who was cutting his losses, though. There's other ways to learn how to hogtie..

 

[Compassionate Reader]

The video shows left back leg tied to left front leg and then, with the same rope, the right side being similarly tied, correct? IMO, the perpetrator had to improvise with the bindings and couldn't use one length for the job. As to why not throw the boys' bodies over the shoulder, that might have gotten blood on the perpetrator. IMO, it's pretty common knowledge that blood can never be totally removed from a garment. So, I think that using the "hog tying" for transport was to avoid getting any "evidence" on the perpetrator. He might not have known about DNA, but I'm sure he knew about blood!

BTW, that video was sad! I agree, poor little piggies!

 

[Cappuccino]

Okay, most of you probably know I think the WM3 are guilty but if they are not I think the shoe laces bindings are the key to proving their innocence.

I have always wondered why the boys were tied up this way. If it was for transport why go to all that trouble. Why not just throw them over the shoulder. Wouldn’t that have been easier and quicker? It takes time to remove the laces and tie them up.
Anyone have any proof this is how hogs are tied up in the slaughterhouses? I have never seen anyone or anything tied like this (right arm to right leg, left arm to left leg). Normally with hogtied you think of tying the hands together then using the same rope to tie the legs together. Did they just not have enough ‘rope’ to do that so they improvised? Why not go from left arm to right leg and right arm to left leg?

The argument that there was no WM3 DNA is not a valid one. With the exception of one hair that might belong to TH there is no DNA of anyone. It was either not collected or washed away. If there was a ton of DNA from someone else (known or unknown), then the no WM3 DNA would be valid. Obviously DNA was washed away or just not preserved. The one hair that may or may not belong to TH doesn’t mean a thing.

So, anyone have a picture of hogs being transported or even tied up this way?

BBM.

That would be a great point if it were true, but it isn't true. Apart from the TH hair there was also...

- A plethora of loose hairs attributable to all three victims

- The so called "Jacoby hair"

- An unidentified negroid hair

- An unidentified caucasian hair found on Michael's wallet

That's what I can remember offhand. I'm sure someone will correct me if I've forgotten anything.

 

[kyleb]

Well assuming you've read the DNA reports, you've forgotten more than you remember, and unless I've overlooked something there's no "hair found on Michael's wallet" listed anywhere in those documents. Also, what you bolded from NCSleuth isn't a point but a premise, and while his premise is false the actual facts of the case leave his point two sentences later quite true, which is why this old article hosted on WM3.org explains:

defense attorneys acknowledge that the West Memphis Three can't count on lab testing to show they were absent from the murder scene.

But they might be able to show that a fourth person - somebody with no ties to Echols, perhaps a known criminal whose DNA profile has been entered into a government database - left behind indisputable evidence that he or she had a hand in the slayings.

"We're not going to be able to exclude any of the defendants," said Blake Hendrix of Little Rock, Ark., who is serving as local counsel for Philipsborn. "We're trying to offensively include someone in there."

And regarding the shoelaces, can anyone provide the source(s) for Paid's diagram? I've yet to find any actual documentation regarding the lengths of the laces, and his description of the knots is inconsistent with Lisa Sakevicius's testimony.

 

[Cappuccino]

Yes there was a hair found in Michael's wallet. You won't find it in the documents you've linked to because those only go up to 2008. The hair in Michael's wallet wasn't tested until 2011, so you'll find it listed in the status reports from that year.

Anyway - my point still stands. The TH hair is not the only DNA found at the crime scene.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Yes there was a hair found in Michael's wallet. You won't find it in the documents you've linked to because those only go up to 2008. The hair in Michael's wallet wasn't tested until 2011, so you'll find it listed in the status reports from that year.

Anyway - my point still stands. The TH hair is not the only DNA found at the crime scene.

And, again, none of the biological samples tested can be linked to any of the falsely-convicted young men. IMO, the fact that some of the samples can be tenuously linked to one of the "parents" should be given more weight than some people seem to be willing to do. Damien has always said, "Test everything" because he knows he's innocent. TH has consistently refused to voluntarily give a DNA sample for testing because he knows what would happen were he to do so.