The state Rests in The State v. Jodi Arias: break in trial until 28 January 2013 #11

[TigerBalm]

Regarding Det. Flores sitting at the prosecution table.
This is the third trial in Maricopa County Superior Courthouse I have watched this year, in all three cases the case agent sat at the prosecution table.
Detective Patricia Ramirez was the case agent in Tammi Smith and Elizabeth Johnson's trials and sat right next to the prosecutors in both trials.
So this seems standard, in Maricopa County, at least.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Maybe a hunting knife, one that could be used to gut a large animal!

At first I thought she may have used a K-bar knife which is a famous knife used by Marines in mortal combat in the military. It fits the dimensions. I know my hubby has one that our son gave him when he was in the Marine Corps for years. I measured it the other night.:floorlaugh:......carefully I may add because it is extremely sharp. Its blade is 6.5 inches long and 2 inches wide. It would not flex or bend.

But now that I have had more time to think about it I believe she had a switchblade with a 6 inch blade because it folds up when not in use and it would be easy to carry in one of her pockets in the jacket or pants of her sweatsuit seen in the crime scene photo.

I imagine she carries it when she is going to be using it either in her pocket or the pocket of her jeans. Imo this is the same knife she used when she slashed all four of his tires. A knife has to be extremely sharp to puncture through thick rubber imo.

The .25 is also a small weapon and she easily could have carried it in one of her pockets of the sweatsuit.

IMO

 

[minor4th]

In AZ victims are precluded from "the Rule" as they call it (keeping witnesses out of the courtroom until they've testified and been released). So I guess lead investigators also are included in that.

Hey are the opening statements online anywhere? I never saw them and would like to.

I know that Arizona has the most expansive victim's rights laws in the country. I believe they amended their state constitution a few years ago to include victim's rights. Victims are even allowed to have counsel in criminal prosecutions and participate in the case like a party, but with some limitations.

 

[LambChop]

I could totally see why a prosecutor would want to have the lead investigator there with him. Like you said, who knows more about the case?

I have a couple of problems with it though: 1. It kind of gives Flores the cloak of being an advocate, as opposed to a neutral investigator of facts; and 2. His testimony could be affected by listening to other witnesses.

I think there's a good reason to exclude witnesses from the courtroom while other witnesses are giving their testimony, but apparently the Arizona legislature doesn't agree with me on this lol

There really is no cloak. He is an advocate of the victim as the lead investigator. He's not neutral by his own admission on the statement tape. He clearly states he is working for Travis, the victim in this case as is true of all investigators in a murder case. What he is testifying to is based on facts as he knows them so there is no way he can change his testimony or be influenced by others. In his testimony about TA being shot first he was not changing his testimony, only testifying later that he misunderstood his what he believed he heard. He was very clear that he was not changing his testimony, just that was what he understood at the time and may have misunderstood what the doctor was saying.

Any witness with a cell phone today could view what the testimony was for that day and it could influence them. They are not suppose to do it but who knows what people do. I believe all witnesses are deposed before giving their testimony to insure it's not changed when they get to the stand to testify. jmo

 

[missy1974]

Hi all I haven't been able to read everything the last few days, but seeing the discussion about Det. Flores at the table reminded me that when I was looking at some of the minutes the other night, I noticed he also goes into chambers with the lawyers. It was when someone pointed out that Sandy Arias had gone to the judge about juror misconduct, it said he was present in chambers as well. Obviously it's what they do there, just seems so strange (as others have said) lol

 

[Chanler]

Three points.

Concerning the bullet vs. knife scenarios: I don't think that's extremely unusual that the police or prosecution sense of the sequence of events will change as new forensics emerge.

Last night on 48 Hours, I was struck by Jodi's rewriting of her Ninja story. In the police interview, she argues that with her standing there, the Ninjas argued about whether to kill, the female Ninja arguing for the snuff, the male murderer taking a more humane view. After he won, she gathered together her things (!!) and left. Of course, that sounds preposterous. In prison, Jodi rethought her story and came up with a new variation: In this version, the male Ninja attempts to shot her, but the gun jambs and Jodi, still thoughtfully grabbing her bag, leaves.

Third, I've noticed that Jodi has repeatedly mentioned that things seemed like a dream or a movie. I think that she has a sense that something larger than herself was being played out in Travis' killing; thus, her self-possession and her repeated professions of innocence and undying love. She is one weird and very frightening cookie.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Seems that is the case. I have just never seen a witness sit at counsel table like that, and it wouldn't be allowed where I live.

I also think it's very unusual that the prosecutor has no second chair in a death penalty case, but Martinez is obviously very well prepared and handling all of the technology and exhibits just fine.

I have seen it occasionally in other cases that werent in AZ but you are right it is not the norm throughout all the states. When they are seated at the table it is always the lead investigator on the case.

Juan is known for trying cases by himself. I believe the last woman that was sent to death row he did it the same way.

He really doesnt need anyone else, imo. It is amazing how well he knows this case and hardly ever looks at any notes.

IMO

 

[minor4th]

Hi all I haven't been able to read everything the last few days, but seeing the discussion about Det. Flores at the table reminded me that when I was looking at some of the minutes the other night, I noticed he also goes into chambers with the lawyers. It was when someone pointed out that Sandy Arias had gone to the judge about juror misconduct, it said he was present in chambers as well. Obviously it's what they do there, just seems so strange (as others have said) lol

Interesting! I guess you can look at it like the State is the party (Arizona v. Arias) and law enforcement is an agency of the State, so maybe he is like the party representative for the State. Makes sense, actually.

 

[popoju]

Three points.

Concerning the bullet vs. knife scenarios: I don't think that's extremely unusual that the police or prosecution sense of the sequence of events will change as new forensics emerge.

Last night on 48 Hours, I was struck by Jodi's rewriting of her Ninja story. In the police interview, she argues that with her standing there, the Ninjas argued about whether to kill, the female Ninja arguing for the snuff, the male murderer taking a more humane view. After he won, she gathered together her things (!!) and left. Of course, that sounds preposterous. In prison, Jodi rethought her story and came up with a new variation: In this version, the male Ninja attempts to shot her, but the gun jambs and Jodi, still thoughtfully grabbing her bag, leaves.

Third, I've noticed that Jodi has repeatedly mentioned that things seemed like a dream or a movie. I think that she has a sense that something larger than herself was being played out in Travis' killing; thus, her self-possession and her repeated professions of innocence and undying love. She is one weird and very frightening cookie.

Ninjas are VERY bad.... be careful :floorlaugh:

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Three points.

Concerning the bullet vs. knife scenarios: I don't think that's extremely unusual that the police or prosecution sense of the sequence of events will change as new forensics emerge.

Last night on 48 Hours, I was struck by Jodi's rewriting of her Ninja story. In the police interview, she argues that with her standing there, the Ninjas argued about whether to kill, the female Ninja arguing for the snuff, the male murderer taking a more humane view. After he won, she gathered together her things (!!) and left. Of course, that sounds preposterous. In prison, Jodi rethought her story and came up with a new variation: In this version, the male Ninja attempts to shot her, but the gun jambs and Jodi, still thoughtfully grabbing her bag, leaves.

Third, I've noticed that Jodi has repeatedly mentioned that things seemed like a dream or a movie. I think that she has a sense that something larger than herself was being played out in Travis' killing; thus, her self-possession and her repeated professions of innocence and undying love.

BBM

You are exactly right. As the case and investigation progresses so will the theories change although Dr. Horn has said from day one that the head shot came last and based it on facts taken from what he saw at the actual autopsy. Flores is LE and not an expert in forensic or medical evidence. That is why LE relies on the MEs expert opinion.

I think once Flores put it all together later on he knew he had to have misunderstood Dr. Horn when he talked with him.

IMO

 

[LadyEdith]

Wow, I wonder if one day someone will come upon *that* scene.

I wonder. I would just love that because I like to know ALL the details of the "HOW". When Flores mentioned, and someone on this board mentioned she drove over the Hoover Dam I thought it extraordinarily likely all those items went there. But burning seems likely too---or both even. Burning clothes/carmats/whatever the weapons were wrapped in (towel, etc.) and weapons over the dam.

 

[Quester]

Did the DT commission a private autopsy? TIA

 

[human]

bbm -There's a wonderful center in CT "The Infant Cognition Center at Yale" aka "The Baby Lab"- they've done some fascinating research on baby morality.
Addresses nature v. nurture, the question of "Where does all the evil in the world come from?" You will even hear the phrase "baby bigots". They do brilliant work.



http://www.yale.edu/infantlab/Our_Studies.html

I saw some of these on a TV show, but did not continue watching it.

I wonder if any of this is coordinated with the work of Piaget and that of others such as Margaret Mead's daughter- I have forgotten her name. As well as that of Erik Erikson and all of those studies done with attachment with the monkeys. Forget that name as well.

Things go in trends. In spite of Piaget, we insist on teaching reading at a young age. In Scandinavian countries they do not start until age 7 .

We leave babies in containers a lot. (Car seats, play pend, etc) . It was considered spoiling at one time to respond to infant's cries.

A lot of cultures sleep with their children. Here it is considered weird and dangerous and it has been because of suffocation.

Anyway, I do not believe an infant is born evil. We need socialization. Think Lord of the Flies. That is what adults are for.

When conscience begins-- who was that that did those stages? we leave the concrete and go to the abstract.

But all of this aside, I go with, " God does not creat junk."

It is we that choose what we make of ourselves as we grow and develop. We have choices.

 

[LadyEdith]

Yeah, she sure did. While he was RUNNING AWAY from HER.

Additionally, when she was stabbing him 9 times in the back, she was "defending" herself from an attack. His BACK was to her, meaning she just had to turn around and run away. By stabbing him in the back she is an (arguably) aggressive position.

 

[PASA]

I remember that being discussed too. Someone looked up how much the Ford she rented would hold and it was a 13 gallon tank. I believe at one time she purchased 19 gallons. And isnt a car full with gas when they pick it up from the rental place?

Yet she got gas every place she first stopped at iirc and the car couldnt have used that much gas. It is an economical car.

So I think it is very reasonable to think she filled up gas cans so she could use them in AZ so she wouldnt leave a papertrail by having to stop to get gas.

IMO

BBM
ITA
Plus, once she got here she didn't drive anywhere (that we know of) except to get the heck outta town after she murdered Travis.

IMHO MOO and all that.

 

[minor4th]

On one of the shows the other night, one of the lawyers was arguing that the State spent too much time focusing on Jodi's changing stories and should have instead hammered on the elements of the crime (premeditation and intent). He likened it to Casey's case and said that it just confused the jury to put on so much evidence of the lies.

I see his point, but disagree. Since Jodi is presumably going to be testifying for her self defense claim, she'll be giving a new account of what happened. (Her 4th version?). It's extremely important for the State to convince the jury that Jodi has absolutely no credibility and should not be believed. The only way to do that is by introducing all of the evidence of her previous lies about what happened to Travis. It's important to show that Jodi will say whatever she thinks will help her at any given moment.

Think about it -- no matter what Jodi says now, no one is going to take it as the truth. It reminds me of Joran Van der Sloot ...he gave so many different accounts of his time with Natalee Holloway that even when he later implicated himself on hidden camera, no one believed him still.

 

[bobloblaw]

So the female atty (I don't even know her name) did the opening and Nurmi has done most of the cross. Do we think the female will handle most of their CIC? Then bring back Nurmi to cross during rebuttal? To me it's just so distasteful that a woman would float this horrific theory of abuse. And that apparently she's calling female abuse experts to back it up. What is wrong with these people? Seriously? What is wrong with them??? Is it all $$$$$$$$$$$$$????????????

I'm not sure why gender has anything to do with it.

 

[Justme84]

This is when people will come to argue and fight with me. I am a criminologist..i am only 27 but this was my dream job since i was 8 years old. For my job, i meet with criminals and try to understand why they became that way..was it normal for them because of the way they were raised or was it because something happened..and if so..WHY...here we can talk about sexual predators...pedophiles and killers..i dont have a long record with meeting with criminals..i would say 105 peeps that i saw and each of them are different and they will connect after some stuff happened...

-jealous bf or gf...
-cant lose a loved one
-sexual abused
-drugs or booze and etc...

I think i had 5 people telling me why they did what they did...the rest is well you know stuff that happened...i dont know jodi..i am young..shes older than me....hell she is not ugly(ok minus the naked part...i didnt need to see it) but i do BELIEVE and where i work(THEY RESPECT ME) each individuals are unique..they have their own stories...yeah it doesnt make them better if something happened to them but MY job is to understand and try to see what made them clicked... (sorry for the mistake im quebecoise..)

thats my :twocents: and thats my job...you could be as guilty as Homolka or Russel Williams or etc i WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY..and if i cannot get why... i want to see and study you

I can totally understand this. I have had a lot of people say I don't care what Travis did he did not deserve to die and I tell them, I am not saying that he deserved to die but his actions innocent or not play into why she did what she did and I can't wait to see te defense will show.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Seems that is the case. I have just never seen a witness sit at counsel table like that, and it wouldn't be allowed where I live.

I also think it's very unusual that the prosecutor has no second chair in a death penalty case, but Martinez is obviously very well prepared and handling all of the technology and exhibits just fine.

While Flores is a witness, he was also the lead investigator. I've watched a number of trials where the lead investigator sits with the prosecution team in an advisory capacity. The judge usually has to give special permission for this to occur. Otherwise, all witnesses are sequestered.

 

[panthera]

Three points.

Concerning the bullet vs. knife scenarios: I don't think that's extremely unusual that the police or prosecution sense of the sequence of events will change as new forensics emerge.

Last night on 48 Hours, I was struck by Jodi's rewriting of her Ninja story. In the police interview, she argues that with her standing there, the Ninjas argued about whether to kill, the female Ninja arguing for the snuff, the male murderer taking a more humane view. After he won, she gathered together her things (!!) and left. Of course, that sounds preposterous. In prison, Jodi rethought her story and came up with a new variation: In this version, the male Ninja attempts to shot her, but the gun jambs and Jodi, still thoughtfully grabbing her bag, leaves.

Third, I've noticed that Jodi has repeatedly mentioned that things seemed like a dream or a movie. I think that she has a sense that something larger than herself was being played out in Travis' killing; thus, her self-possession and her repeated professions of innocence and undying love. She is one weird and very frightening cookie.

She appears to have a very vivid imagination and the ability to disassociate herself from reality when it suits her purpose.

However, this entire scenario is preposterous and therefore my belief why she changed to 'self-defense'.

:doh:

MOO