The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[daisy.faithfull]

What did her testimony do? Apparently, Grandma thought it was too warm that day for a white puffy coat, which makes me wonder if she was not a tad confused. I shopped in Woodstock and area that day, it was brisk!!!

Oh I agree, she did her civil duty, however, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, that she would not tell LE about seeing a woman in a white coat enter the school. MOO

Wasn't it snowing that day, or wasn't there snow on the ground at the crime scene?

 

[Tahorn]

What about the fact that Grandma says she saw white coated TLM enter the school, sees video surveillance (released day after TS is abducted) has interview with LE April 11, but doesn't mention she saw white coated woman that police are looking for because LE DIDN'T ASK HER!!! Yeah, she's a really dilly of a witness she is!!! MOO

I could not imagine being the defenses witness in a case that shattered the entire community. It must have been very difficult and done under great personal hardship. For me she was an honest witness and should not be treated any less then with respect.

 

[OhSoCurious]

What did her testimony do? Apparently, Grandma thought it was too warm that day for a white puffy coat, which makes me wonder if she was not a tad confused. I shopped in Woodstock and area that day, it was brisk!!!

Oh I agree, she did her civil duty, however, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, that she would not tell LE about seeing a woman in a white coat enter the school. MOO

I find her opinion or anyone else's about the weather irrelevant compared to the rest of her testimony. JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

If this 60 year old grandmother was 100% sure that she witnessed, the same woman in the CASS video, enter the school around dismissal time on April the 8th 2009...I am sure it would have been an important piece of information that she would have passed on to LE whether they asked her or not.....but she chose NOT to tell them.

Now that I do not understand at all.

I have nothing against this woman because even if she had mentioned that to LE immediately after Tory was reported missing her info wouldn't have changed what happed.

But why would she not say something? Fear? Makes zippity-do-da sense to me.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I find her opinion or anyone else's about the weather irrelevant compared to the rest of her testimony. JMO

Totally get where you're coming from. But if she was confused about the weather conditions that day, what else is she confused about? Especially since IMO she had more time during the day to observe the weather than she did seeing TLM and Tory. :Moo:

 

[roseofsharon]

I could not imagine being the defenses witness in a case that shattered the entire community. It must have been very difficult and done under great personal hardship. For me she was an honest witness and should not be treated any less then with respect.

Who's disrespecting her?

However, you make a good point here "a case that shattered the entire community" so very true, yet this woman did not feel it was important enough on April 11 to tell LE she saw a woman in a white coat, but during her testimony she mentions it.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ctionary/dilly+dilly&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

This adjective is not disrespectful!! MOO

 

[OhSoCurious]

Totally get where you're coming from. But if she was confused about the weather conditions that day, what else is she confused about? Especially since IMO she had more time during the day to observe the weather than she did seeing TLM and Tory. :Moo:

Confused by the weather? No, that was her opinion. What she eye witnessed was factual to her, not an opinion. MOO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I could not imagine being the defenses witness in a case that shattered the entire community. It must have been very difficult and done under great personal hardship. For me she was an honest witness and should not be treated any less then with respect.

ITA. There is nothing that she could have done to save Tori. By all appearances there was nothing unusual going on that day. She was only made aware that something did happen days after her info could have helped Tori.

And I'm sure she testified to the best of her recollection. She was a witness for the defence but it seems like she was not happy about that. And because of how she waited so long to tell LE and did not do so when she was first interviewed, to me means that her testimony did nothing to help the defence's case.

I wish they would have cleared the courtroom so no one would know who she is. But even if that had been done, I cannot imagine how she would feel if MTR got off and she was apart of his defence. It would absolutely not be her fault, but I could see how she could blame herself.

 

[Sillybilly]

I could not imagine being the defenses witness in a case that shattered the entire community. It must have been very difficult and done under great personal hardship. For me she was an honest witness and should not be treated any less then with respect.

I don't think anyone is treating her with anything less than respect. Do I think she lied? No, IMO her recall seems very flawed and her testimony simply didn't withstand cross-examination (for all the reasons pointed out by many others in this thread).

 

[OhSoCurious]

I had the most incredible dog ever. Children would come up to talk to us, want to walk her etc. And these are children that are brought up knowing who stranger danger is. I think the know who stranger danger is, but when they see a dog they don't think stranger danger, more than likely they have been told stranger dangers lure them away with candy, dogs etc, but they just get tunnel vision when it comes to that kinda thing. Plus I'm a woman.

It's very scary. I don't think a parent can ever take for granted that their children will make the right decision in these circumstances. I'm not a parent, but I think it's something you have to talk about a lot with them.

It's sad because children shouldn't have to worry about horrible things like that. But it's just like parents that yell after their children to look both ways when they cross the street or watch for cars when they are bike riding. The kids know they need to be careful when it comes to riding their bike, but sometimes they just don't think about that stuff.

It is sad but I AM and always was confident my children would make the right decision in these circumstances. There are parents out there that are sure of their children and reactions to situations. I find this scenario lends itself to once again Tori knowing TLM. There was a comfort level and not a sense of stranger danger. MOO

 

[otto]

Other than Rodney not knowing about that last witness, it's my feeling that he knows an awful lot about what has been going on, plus all the rumours. If Rafferty gets life, the purpose of this trial will have been accomplished (IMO), even though it happened by a circuitous route and all the truth didn't come out. Perhaps Rodney knows stuff that would just be too sordid for the public. Maybe there are others involved. Maybe in time someone will put all the suppressed facts together and write a book. Maybe Rodney could do it, but may not want to.

The defence did not have to disclose that this witness would testify. The defence must release a list of expert witnesses, but not witnesses like the woman that was at the school that day. Family can only be told so much about trial because there's no guarantee that what they are told will be kept confidential. Much of what is presented at trial is new for them too.

 

[Tahorn]

My husband just brought up something ... So he was without his pants for at least half hour ... Why? Just wondering if it was so brisk and cold ... Why would he have taking off his pants when he did not need to. Just saying ...

 

[Ardy]

The grandmother's testimony didn't sound confused at all.

The weather that day was around 8 degrees I believe, which for some Canadians is practically bikini weather. Most people would be wearing a sweater or light jacket, and she sees a woman going by in a big puffy white coat that looks like she is dressed for an Arctic expedition.

If she had testified that she only saw TLM going into the front doors of the school, maybe she could have gotten someone else mixed up..........but a few minutes later she saw the very same woman, in the very same coat, with the very same hairdo (and she did say she noticed the hair because she is a hair dresser), walking down the sidewalk with VS..........whom her granddaughter pointed out to her.

That doesn't sound like confused testimony to me.

Some of the jury members are probably hovering around the 60 age.......and I doubt they consider themselves too confused to tell if someone is going into a front door of a school or not.

It's not like she "caught a glimpse" of TLM going through the door.

She watched her walk behind the teachers and students, down the sidewalk and into the front door of the school.

She wasn't watching from the top of the hill.........or across the street.

She was sitting right there.

If the grandmother's testimony is too weak to consider, they best throw out all the witness testimony from the trial, especially TLM's who was fried on drugs all day and whose cognitive brain cells are most likely permanently damaged from a life of drug addiction since she was 8 years old.

Now there is someone more likely to be confused than the grandmother.

JMO............

 

[otto]

Wowzers just starting to read today's posts. You people have been busy bees today. Why am I not surprised MR never took the stand and the defense only called one witness today. That was a wee bit of a surprise for me as I honestly didn't think Derstine would have any witnesses to call. I see no reasonable doubt raised by Derstine with this witness, and by golly it was "his" witness. The one and only.

What really blew this witness' testimony for me is when she claimed what made her take notice of TLM is she was wearing a winter coat on such a warm day. Lo and behold the Crown brings forth the evidence the temperature that day was eight degrees and in reality it was not warm, more than likely colder that morning when the kiddies all headed off to school. If this witness would have noticed, I would imagine the majority, and probably her own grandchildren were dressed in warm or winter coats/clothing. How's that for observant?!

Then she claims to have taken a split second look at TLM upon driving down Fyfe street, saw TLM's side profile, and she noticed TLM had a scowl or some sort of downcast expression on her face, AND TLM was not wearing any make up. Wow she not only was very observant but had great eyesight to boot in order to tell TLM had no make up on. How would anyone be able to tell by at split second, side glance, how many feet away, whether someone had make up on? *scratches head*

Oh and she testified Tori was talking to TLM because her mouth was moving. Could it have been Tori may have been singing a song as she was supposedly skipping along behind TLM trying to keep up? Could it be possible Tori was chewing gum or candy? How was she so certain Tori was talking to TLM? Credible witness...IMHO definitely not. Sorry Derstine but if you are such a high profile, fabulous lawyer, I need to say you blew it big time in defending MR trial or creating reasonable doubt in any of your cross exams. Of course this is JMHO.

Friday...hmm.

The temp fluxuated beween -2 and 8 C that day. That, in my opinion, is cold enough for most children and many adults to be dressed in warm coats. If there was wind, it was even colder.

On the news, I heard that she is a 60 year old ... so, in my opinion, eyesight is no longer perfect. I think she saw something, perhaps even Victoria being led away by TLM, but I also think that over time her memory gaps were filled with new information - just like the prosecution demonstrated regarding her initial failure to remember the colour of TLM's pants and later a new memory about the colour of the pants.

 

[Ardy]

My husband just brought up something ... So he was without his pants for at least half hour ... Why? Just wondering if it was so brisk and cold ... Why would he have taking off his pants when he did not need to. Just saying ...

I have always wondered about that as well.

Here you supposedly have a guy walking around with no pants on, on a farm lane that he doesn't know at any minute the farmer is going to drive down. He also doesn't know if the neighbour across the road from the lane saw him drive in and called the owner........or the police.

Not exactly the typical scenario a pedophile would choose, I would think.

But, I guess it goes along with the rest of the story, where he kidnaps a young girl, drives 50 miles away to score some drugs and chat with an old friend, stop for a tea and some cash, buy a hammer and bags.........and head down a farm lane that he hopes is unoccupied and he won't be noticed going into.

He also hopes he isn't stopped by LE for some reason all along the way and that nobody notices a young girl in the backseat, and that TLM won't chicken out and let VS go,............and that his new "girlfriend", the heavily drug using TLM will keep their little secret.......just between them......long after he has dumped her.

Incredible story.....more incredible than the defense version I think.

To believe that story I would pretty much have to see MR standing at the ATM camera with drool coming out of his mouth.

JMO.............

 

[otto]

The grandmother's testimony didn't sound confused at all.

The weather that day was around 8 degrees I believe, which for some Canadians is practically bikini weather. Most people would be wearing a sweater or light jacket, and she sees a woman going by in a big puffy white coat that looks like she is dressed for an Arctic expedition.

If she had testified that she only saw TLM going into the front doors of the school, maybe she could have gotten someone else mixed up..........but a few minutes later she saw the very same woman, in the very same coat, with the very same hairdo (and she did say she noticed the hair because she is a hair dresser), walking down the sidewalk with VS..........whom her granddaughter pointed out to her.

That doesn't sound like confused testimony to me.

Some of the jury members are probably hovering around the 60 age.......and I doubt they consider themselves too confused to tell if someone is going into a front door of a school or not.

It's not like she "caught a glimpse" of TLM going through the door.

She watched her walk behind the teachers and students, down the sidewalk and into the front door of the school.

She wasn't watching from the top of the hill.........or across the street.

She was sitting right there.

If the grandmother's testimony is too weak to consider, they best throw out all the witness testimony from the trial, especially TLM's who was fried on drugs all day and whose cognitive brain cells are most likely permanently damaged from a life of drug addiction since she was 8 years old.

Now there is someone more likely to be confused than the grandmother.

JMO............

Puffy white coats were the thing to have a few years ago. It was a fashion statement - never suitable for an artic expedition. A temperature range of -2 to 8 C is not warm weather. Fahrenheit, it's between 28 and 46. I would hope that most of the children were also wearing warm clothing that day.

The prosecution demonstrated that the witness "embellished" (eg: whether she remembered the colour of the pants worn by TLM) after her first statement ... that's could result in some jurors questioning whether only her first statement is credible, or whether he testimony is also credible.

Questioning the credibility of one witness does not mean that all witnesses lack credibility.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Confused by the weather? No, that was her opinion. What she eye witnessed was factual to her, not an opinion. MOO

Yes, confused about the weather. It seems that she might be incorrect about her recollection of the weather that day or else she experiences weather differently than other people.

Anyway, here is what I get for the weather in Woodstock, Ontario on April 8th, 2009. While the results say by the URL they are for Woodstock, on the page it looks like on the page it is from Delhi.

Temperature
Minimum Temperature
-3.4 °C

Mean Temperature
0.9 °C

Maximum Temperature
7.2 °C

http://www.almanac.com/weather/history/ON/Woodstock/2009-04-08

And then here is the reports that there was snow on the ground at Mt. Forest:

But for the tree branches and a light covering of snow on the ground that April day, jurors were able to see the scene more or less as it was when Tori died.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/02/michael-rafferty-trial-stafford-death-scene_n_1396352.html

 

[Ardy]

The temp fluxuated beween -2 and 8 C that day. That, in my opinion, is cold enough for most children and many adults to be dressed in warm coats. If there was wind, it was even colder.

On the news, I heard that she is a 60 year old ... so, in my opinion, eyesight is no longer perfect. I think she saw something, perhaps even Victoria being led away by TLM, but I also think that over time her memory gaps were filled with new information - just like the prosecution demonstrated regarding her initial failure to remember the colour of TLM's pants and later a new memory about the colour of the pants.

If the grandmother's memory was tainted by information that she had seen on the news..........it would be the information she testified to about TLM walking down the street with VS.

There was no information anywhere, at any time, about TLM entering the school.

This witness is the first time that information has been heard.

JMO..........

 

[daisy.faithfull]

It is sad but I AM and always was confident my children would make the right decision in these circumstances. There are parents out there that are sure of their children and reactions to situations. I find this scenario lends itself to once again Tori knowing TLM. There was a comfort level and not a sense of stranger danger. MOO

I understand that is your opinion, but I do not share it and was explaining the many experiences I had with Mimi where everything children are taught by their parents about stranger danger completely leaves their mind when they see a dog.

 

[Maple1]

Curious?
When the lawyers are discussing issues with the jury gone, does everyone in galley hear what is happening?
I thought this would be considered sidebar and only the judge, lawyers, and court reporter would be involved. Or is the press hearing these issues and waiting for the bans to be lifted when the jury is sequestered.
I am curious to see if and what Derstine was able to suppress in the crown's evidence, ie: MR's laptop that was found in his vehicle.

If MR is found guilty and appeals his sentence, how would this information being released effect a new trial?

Thanks. Appreciate all the tweets and links.