The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Ardy]

It is my understanding that the laws in the U.K. for criminal trials are pretty much the same as they are in Canada. If you have information to show otherwise, specific to disclosure, I'd really appreciate a link to it. TIA

The Crown was fully prepared with copies of this witness's statements to LE from 2009 and at the ready for cross examination. Hard to understand how this was accomplished had he not had the information prior to her appearance.

MOO

Actually, the information on disclosure is accurate, but is missing one small but significant detail.

The defense has to disclose to the Crown all "expert" witnesses who will testify, but isn't required to disclose all the other witnesses.......BUT...........the Crown has the right to have time to perform due diligence on the witness.

Example........

The defense calls.......Joe Smith to the stand.

Crown.........we will require time to perform due diligence, Your Honour.

Judge..........how much time is required?

Crown.........We estimate 2 weeks.

Judge..........Granted.........court is adjourned until...........

As the example shows.........it would be most impractical for the defense to try to enter a "surprise" witness to catch the Crown unaware.

Another interesting tidbit.........all Crown witnesses are subjected to a criminal records check which is part of the disclosure to the Crown.

I would assume they would perform one on all of the defense witnesses as well.

The criminal records checks can be used to test the credibility of witnesses.

JMO...........

 

[Flossie JMO]

It's sad to see that this theory is still being tossed around now that there is a clear understanding of who was involved in the murder.

JMO that story is tossed around due to Tori's Mom testifying to it. JMO

 

[Dmman]

JMO I do not blame TM, she has my utmost sympathy. The supposed drug debt TM testified to is what makes me curious.

Lots of people have debt. Some have credit card, lines of credit, & some have illegal debt. Totally irrelevant in this case. JMO

 

[Ardy]

BBM
Because of the publication ban, or because WS sees the family as victims?

As far as I know it is the website owner's policy, as per the moderator warnings.

I think the public can discuss anything they want.......provided it doesn't come from information heard in court that was publicly banned.

Makes sense.......if people didn't hear it.......how can they discuss it?

JMO......

 

[snoofer]

It is my understanding that the laws in the U.K. for criminal trials are pretty much the same as they are in Canada. If you have information to show otherwise, specific to disclosure, I'd really appreciate a link to it. TIA

The Crown was fully prepared with copies of this witness's statements to LE from 2009 and at the ready for cross examination. Hard to understand how this was accomplished had he not had the information prior to her appearance.

MOO

which case are you following? MOO Are you talking about a case in England or just referring to english law about this case.

 

[Sillybilly]

I have followed the trial every step of the way in fact the crime from the start and I never saw Dirk try to discredit any of the crown's witness's called EXCEPT the one who confessed to the murder and described how she beat and stomped and kicked and then used her hammer to destroy and kill and an innocent child...the reason he attempted to discredit her was because she told so many lies..JMO it's funny though, the many that still have doubts and maybe are still on the fence did not and have not said too much about the crown's witness's other than a big "wow" sometimes.... I have never heard a word about discrediting anything that they had to say ...only comments I have heard were not about what they had to say but how would that have any bearing on this crime..ie: character being a cad...(gotta love that word cause I haven't heard that word only from an old movie)..humour of the judge...gotta love him...JMO JMO the defence calls one witness (that the crown could have used but discarded)and the poor thing is torn apart...strange eh!!! JMO

LOL, like Derstine ... i guess we weren't able to poke holes in testimony by the Crown's witnesses. Yes TLM admited to beating, stomping, etc etc and admitted to having lied at times. We aren't all dummies who are claiming she didn't lie, but ultimately we have waded through the testimony and come to our own conclusions that her testimony at trial seems to be in line with other evidence that has been presented by the Crown.

Personally, I am not WOWED by the testimony of the only witness the defence was able to present, and whose testimony I believe is questionable and not backed up by any other supporting evidence. JMO, but others are free to interpret it any way they wish. It always gets a little frustrating when these cases are ongoing, but I would request that you not be so palpably critical or cynical towards others who may have a viewpoint that differs from yours.

JMO

 

[brighidin]

Just so I have this straight:

A) The crown has to grant full disclosure to defense pre-trial. Witnesses, expert findings??

B) The defense did NOT have to disclose their witness to the crown until day of testimony? Because she was not classified as an expert?

Very interesting. However I'm still quite shocked today they used the Grandmom witness who's accounts were slightly different in police reports.

An off topic question...can someone tell me what "LE" stands for???

Law enforcement/ the police

 

[antiquegirl]

This drug dept talk is the story the DEFENDANT was spinning to his friends at the time. His LIES to deflect attention away from himself. JMO

If one is to go back to media reports from 2009, one would see that the drug debt rumour was rampant throughout Woodstock almost immediately after Tori went missing. It's hard to believe that MTR had that much influence that quickly, or had that many contacts in a city with a population of more than 35,000 people.

Just one of many articles, dated one week after Tori disappeared:

WOODSTOCK - The mother of a missing Woodstock girl and her boyfriend are angrily denying rumours that Victoria "Tori" Stafford's disappearance is linked to an upaid drug debt involving the couple.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/04/15/9121526.html

It is my opinion only that MTR heard these rumours from AC, the woman he was dating then and whose children played with TM's. AC may have heard them from TM herself, who was by then protesting all over FB and in pressers.

Additionally, it was not a lie, as TM herself admitted on the stand that her "better half" did indeed have a drug debt at the time. She also admitted to taking drugs herself. Really, it was not that big a stretch for people to come to that conclusion ... with or without MTR's input.

MOO

 

[otto]

It is my understanding that the laws in the U.K. for criminal trials are pretty much the same as they are in Canada. If you have information to show otherwise, specific to disclosure, I'd really appreciate a link to it. TIA

The Crown was fully prepared with copies of this witness's statements to LE from 2009 and at the ready for cross examination. Hard to understand how this was accomplished had he not had the information prior to her appearance.

MOO

I don't know about UK law, but I would be very surprised if Canadian law is the same as UK law. My information comes from asking an A.C.C. Prosecutor in a large Canadian city about the rules of disclosure (last week). If the moderators would like a reference, I can provide that privately.

The defence is not required to disclose a list of witnesses unless they are expert witnesses. They are not required to disclose an alibi witness, but it is in the best interests of the defendant to do so.

Obviously the prosecution had access to the witness statements ... that is where the defence got the information in the first place.

 

[Flossie JMO]

All this drug debt talk reminds me of the early forum discussions blaiming Victoria's mother for her disappearance. Who supposedly had this drug debt, who was it owed to and how does Victoria's disappearance fit into this scenario?

iirc the "supposed debt" was testified by TM and was by TM's live in man

 

[Dmman]

Law enforcement/ the police

I quickly figured out every other initial you guys used, & I knew you were referring to the police...but LE had me stumped! Law enforcement sounds American to me! Haha

 

[otto]

Just so I have this straight:

A) The crown has to grant full disclosure to defense pre-trial. Witnesses, expert findings??

B) The defense did NOT have to disclose their witness to the crown until day of testimony? Because she was not classified as an expert?

Very interesting. However I'm still quite shocked today they used the Grandmom witness who's accounts were slightly different in police reports.

An off topic question...can someone tell me what "LE" stands for???

The crown has to provide full disclosure. The defence does not. The defence has to disclose expert witnesses. This is to balance the perceived imbalance between the little guy (accused) and the power of the crown.

LE seems to be a term commonly used in the US to describe investigators ... law enforcement, I think.

 

[Flossie JMO]

Lots of people have debt. Some have credit card, lines of credit, & some have illegal debt. Totally irrelevant in this case. JMO

ITA and oh gosh I have debt. However the testimony was drug debt from ripping off a dealer. Not irrelevant, and not any way like a credit card or line of credit debt! IMO!

 

[Ardy]

Lots of people have debt. Some have credit card, lines of credit, & some have illegal debt. Totally irrelevant in this case. JMO

With all due respect........try ripping off a drug dealer for $400 worth of pills and see what happens.

It isn't the same as not paying a cable bill.

A few years ago in Woodstock, a young man was in a friend's basement family room when 2 people entered the home and removed him at knifepoint. They kidnapped him and demanded he come up with the money he owed them. He called his parents begging for money........and they called the police. They were stopped, arrested and charged. The young man had to leave Woodstock because he feared for his life.

Also a few years ago in Woodstock, a guy answered a knock at the apartment door of someone he was visiting. He opened the door and was beaten almost to death with baseball bats. The intruders fled, but they were caught. It was a drug debt, but they had the wrong guy.

Lots of stuff going on.................in the shadows.

JMO..........

 

[Flossie JMO]

I quickly figured out every other initial you guys used, & I knew you were referring to the police...but LE had me stumped! Law enforcement sounds American to me! Haha

oh yes often in the US you will see police/law enforement etc referred to as LE

 

[Mystic]

I don't think the fact that they are not in court means that they are disgusted...I think it could be because they don't want the harassment of the press and nosey spectators..they probably have jobs and family and do not want to subject them to this circus...who could blame them...and of course being scrutinized and talked about on internet sites...JMO

i don't agree, if a parent, sister and/or brother truly believes their son or daughter is innocent.. they would support them; it speaks volumes to me that they didn't show up once, not once jmo

 

[daisy.faithfull]

(RSBM)

With all due respect, I disagree. All witness testimony is considered evidence and both sides have to have full disclosure of what evidence will be presented at trial.



http://www.mondaq.com/x/148584/Violent+Sexual+crime/Defence+Disclosure+In+The+Magistrates+Court

The Crown was aware that this witness would be called by the defence and what her testimony would be. He was prepared and tried to dispute her testimony by quoting her original statement to LE back in 2009.





JMO

Okay, but I could have sworn I saw a post recently that the defence only had to supply the Crown with the witnesses that were professional, and I guess I just thought that the woman had the report because it was given to her by the defence.

I still don't think that there was anything nefarious going on the part of the Crown. As it has already mentioned the witness can't even give a straight answer as to whether or not she was influenced by the media regarding TLM's pants and that her memory is better when it is closer to when the event occurred. It's like they put her up there to muddy the waters a bit, just like what he did with that EAO business then never presented any evidence of the gangs involvement.

Really it does amaze me because I don't think I've ever heard of a case where the defence basically has nothing to present except such an unreliable witness. :Moo: it almost looks like he didn't even put on a defence at all when it comes to producing cold, hard facts. But then again it is the Crown that bears the burden of proof, but still........

 

[Dmman]

The crown has to provide full disclosure. The defence does not. The defence has to disclose expert witnesses. This is to balance the perceived imbalance between the little guy (accused) and the power of the crown.

LE seems to be a term commonly used in the US to describe investigators ... law enforcement, I think.

I feel as though my brain has grown in knowledge in all I've learned with this trial. I always wanted to take the drive to London to attend court just to see the inner workings of the proceedings. But I didn't feel appropriate to be among Victoria's family.

 

[snoofer]

I believe you are right.

The closing arguments aren't evidence, but both sides will use the evidence to reflect their side of the story.

An example.......

The Crown will assert they have ample scientific evidence that shows MR sexually assaulted VS and they will present the results.

Derstine will take the same scientific evidence and show that the experts had to testify there was no conclusive evidence MR sexually assaulted VS.

Both sides can go down the list.....and fortify their side

What I am curious about is if the Crown will try to explain TLM's writings, and statement to her godmother......or will they leave it alone.

JMO.......

but.......all the defense presented was the granny. What can they talk about in closing arguments then. MOO

 

[Snoopster]

I feel as though my brain has grown in knowledge in all I've learned with this trial. I always wanted to take the drive to London to attend court just to see the inner workings of the proceedings. But I didn't feel appropriate to be among Victoria's family.

Come on down, Dmman! We Londoners aren't that scary!

I haven't stopped in either, but it isn't for the same reasons as you. I work during the day, and the court schedule and jury participation has been a bit unpredictable. It just hasn't worked well with my work schedule. I had thought of popping in during the defense, but it was over before I knew it!

See you there Friday?