The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[daisy.faithfull]

Your reference may be of use for a case being tried in the U.K., but, would seem irrelevant here in Canada.

JMO

Thank you for pointing that out. So the defence might not of had to provide the witness information to the Crown.

I know I saw somewhere around here that in Canada the defence only has to give a list of the professional witnesses, does anyone else remember that?

 

[Dmman]

With all due respect........try ripping off a drug dealer for $400 worth of pills and see what happens.

It isn't the same as not paying a cable bill.

A few years ago in Woodstock, a young man was in a friend's basement family room when 2 people entered the home and removed him at knifepoint. They kidnapped him and demanded he come up with the money he owed them. He called his parents begging for money........and they called the police. They were stopped, arrested and charged. The young man had to leave Woodstock because he feared for his life.

Also a few years ago in Woodstock, a guy answered a knock at the apartment door of someone he was visiting. He opened the door and was beaten almost to death with baseball bats. The intruders fled, but they were caught. It was a drug debt, but they had the wrong guy.

Lots of stuff going on.................in the shadows.

JMO..........

I'm definitely not suggesting that drug dealers will use your SIN to place you in collections & I have no doubt that it's a shady business.
I just believe that Tori was taken, brutally raped & murdered...while having no part of a debt or "score to settle".

 

[snoofer]

I quickly figured out every other initial you guys used, & I knew you were referring to the police...but LE had me stumped! Law enforcement sounds American to me! Haha

well, where I am from we affectionately call them the "Poe Poe". MOO

 

[swedie]

Q by Reporter: Were you suprised that he didn't get up on the stand (Rafferty)

A by Rodney: No, because if he had of gotten up on the stand, that would have opened up character.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/01/19703251.html

MR knows he's guilty and it was his sick idea to abduct Tori. If he was innocent he would have had no problem taking the stand in his own defense.The innocent have nothing to hide. AND the truth shall set you free. IMHO he's a coward and had more of his sick fantasies fulfilled by taking his case on the path he knew he wouldn't win. Twenty-five years is a lloonnngg time to be staring at the same four walls which trap you in. He thought he'd take advantage of seeing the outside, thus the trial. Again MHO what a huge waste of money to put on his trial. Karma.

 

[Macright]

With all due respect........try ripping off a drug dealer for $400 worth of pills and see what happens.

It isn't the same as not paying a cable bill.

A few years ago in Woodstock, a young man was in a friend's basement family room when 2 people entered the home and removed him at knifepoint. They kidnapped him and demanded he come up with the money he owed them. He called his parents begging for money........and they called the police. They were stopped, arrested and charged. The young man had to leave Woodstock because he feared for his life.

Also a few years ago in Woodstock, a guy answered a knock at the apartment door of someone he was visiting. He opened the door and was beaten almost to death with baseball bats. The intruders fled, but they were caught. It was a drug debt, but they had the wrong guy.

Lots of stuff going on.................in the shadows.

JMO..........

Ardy I know you were posting a sensible & serious post but your first two sentences gave me a great laugh...boy your posts are straight to the point and always make sense...JMO....thanks for the laugh...

 

[Dmman]

Come on down, Dmman! We Londoners aren't that scary!

I haven't stopped in either, but it isn't for the same reasons as you. I work during the day, and the court schedule and jury participation has been a bit unpredictable. It just hasn't worked well with my work schedule. I had thought of popping in during the defense, but it was over before I knew it!

See you there Friday?

I would try for Monday I think. I would love to feel the positive energy that the crown's closing will bring! But I would like a seat in the overflow room I think. Has anyone reported on how good/bad audio/video is in there? I have to convince my husband to rearrange his work schedule that day first!

 

[Mystic]

I have read every post in this forum up until now & I would like to say "hi" & thank everyone for all of your time & effort & opinions.

My daughter turned 9 on April 8th 2009 & living in a my own "small town" environment & southern ontario not far from it all, I can tell you this case has had a profound effect on the way I look at everything, everyone & my daughter.

I think it's one thing to think your child is feisty & would have an attitude or never go with strangers, i sure know that from experiences & we all want to believe it. but what i have been forced to notice since the day sweet Victoria went missing & watching the news - was just how little, my little girl really was. I saw her so much different. When she felt scared & vulnerable - the way she would act around people. I just paid so much more attention. She is 12 now & full of "attitude" but still just a "little girl" - it just breaks my heart the the world is missing its Victoria Stafford.

I tried to view this trial with an open mind in the interest in the process of justice & i cant express how difficult that was because it's been the most emotional i have ever experienced & i have never had so many tears while reflecting on a case & comparing it to my personal life. i just have to say that the fact that MR didn't say ONE thing in his defence seals the deal for me. this is the one & only time I felt that if the defendant had anything to say they MUST say it, on the stand & i dont care how stupid the story would sound he needed to tell it. I know that to testify is a choice. imo he didnt have a choice & imo is guilty as charged. there is so much i want to say. but there are now words really. i am just so stunned by this tragedy I cant even think straight sometimes.

I am not sure any of this came out right, & i am sure not as profound as i would like to be - but I just didnt want to "armchair from the side lines" any longer & include myself in the group while we wait....

thank you for including yourself

MR also didn't bother to share where Tori was.. being the driver and all

 

[snoofer]

I would try for Monday I think. I would love to feel the positive energy that the crown's closing will bring! But I would like a seat in the overflow room I think. Has anyone reported on how good/bad audio/video is in there? I have to convince my husband to rearrange his work schedule that day first!

are you guys going to wear little badges with snoopster and dmman on them? How will you find each other? MOO

 

[Snoopster]

I would try for Monday I think. I would love to feel the positive energy that the crown's closing will bring! But I would like a seat in the overflow room I think. Has anyone reported on how good/bad audio/video is in there? I have to convince my husband to rearrange his work schedule that day first!

I agree with you that Monday is a better bet. I think the Crown will take more time with their closing arguments that the defence will. (Unfortunately I will be in Toronto on Monday. )

 

[Ardy]

I'm definitely not suggesting that drug dealers will use your SIN to place you in collections & I have no doubt that it's a shady business.
I just believe that Tori was taken, brutally raped & murdered...while having no part of a debt or "score to settle".

I know.........I hope you don't take as picking on you.

I wonder sometimes if people don't realize how deep and shady the drug world is.......or at least was in Woodstock at that time.

There was lots going on..........and some of it was violent at times.

Except for the ones at the top of the drug chain.......the people we are discussing are low level, low income and struggling to survive.

The $400 worth of pills that JG ripped off likely didn't belong to the street dealer.........but the dealer was the middle man and would have owed the money to someone else. The people higher up don't want to listen to the street dealers tale of woe about being ripped off. They hear that nonsense all the time. They want their money.

I also doubt that a street dealer would give someone $400 worth of pills on an IOU.

It doesn't work that way. Most likely JG stole the pills from someone........JMO.

I don't know if it has anything to do with the abduction.......but I thought TM's response was a little bit casual, considering what kind of business it is.

Oh yea.......my boyfriend ripped off someone for pills...........isn't a great thing to say.

JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I agree with you that Monday is a better bet. I think the Crown will take more time with their closing arguments that the defence will. (Unfortunately I will be in Toronto on Monday. )

If anyone goes could you please look at MTR give the scoop about how he looks when the Crown is doing their closing. If you are able too. I know it is not evidence, but I'm still interested. TIA

 

[Flossie JMO]

This drug dept talk is the story the DEFENDANT was spinning to his friends at the time. His LIES to deflect attention away from himself. JMO

NO, iirc, JMO, the debt was testified to by TM = Tori's Mom.

 

[Dmman]

I know.........I hope you don't take as picking on you.

I wonder sometimes if people don't realize how deep and shady the drug world is.......or at least was in Woodstock at that time.

There was lots going on..........and some of it was violent at times.

Except for the ones at the top of the drug chain.......the people we are discussing are low level, low income and struggling to survive.

The $400 worth of pills that JG ripped off likely didn't belong to the street dealer.........but the dealer was the middle man and would have owed the money to someone else. The people higher up don't want to listen to the street dealers tale of woe about being ripped off. They hear that nonsense all the time. They want their money.

JMO

I don't mind being picked on!

I lived along the 401 corridor about 10 yrs ago, & not too far from Woodstock. Unfortunately a lot of smaller ON cities/towns have experienced a drug problem & the violence that comes with it. I'm not from ON & it still amazes me what people are capable of because I always feel sheltered.

 

[Ardy]

but.......all the defense presented was the granny. What can they talk about in closing arguments then. MOO

They can talk about any of the evidence presented, including the Crowns.

The closing argument, where each side tells their story, fortified by evidence, is the most powerful part of the trial, and is where trials are often won or lost.

JMO

 

[Maple1]

Just so I have this straight:

A) The crown has to grant full disclosure to defense pre-trial. Witnesses, expert findings??

B) The defense did NOT have to disclose their witness to the crown until day of testimony? Because she was not classified as an expert?

Very interesting. However I'm still quite shocked today they used the Grandmom witness who's accounts were slightly different in police reports.

An off topic question...can someone tell me what "LE" stands for???

Someone has probably answered already. LE stands for law enforcement. When I first started reading some of the posts this confused me also. This is from someone who used to think LOL meant lots of love.

 

[Dmman]

I'm pretty sure to begin with Tara, James and others attending court every day are not employed. Maybe it can be considered that Rafferty's family are all gainfully employed? Have you even considered it might be too much for his mother and brothers to take two months leave of absence from their jobs?

There may be other challenges, like long distances, etc. It is an assumption that he is without their support because they are not physically there. JMO

I respect your opinion, I just disagree. I can't imagine the mother of the accused in one of Canada's most prolific crimes has to go to work each day & can't attend her sons trial. Maybe she can still follow twitter for updates.

With a mother & a couple of brothers, by now you would think someone would've made an appearance? JMO

 

[Mystic]

There's nothing I'm even interested in hearing about this after the trial. It has nothing to do with TLM...MR & Tori Stafford & April 8, 2009. IMO

Even IF someone had a debt...it would be so uncommon for a child abduction to take place. Taking someone's car, burning someone's house, breaking bones maybe...but not taking a child & making no order of ransom. Doesn't make one bit of logical sense to me. I would've like to be here when this was being discussed a couple of years ago. I would like to hear someone tell me a theory in this case.

agree, it wasn't logical then and it is not now

 

[OhSoCurious]

I've been following this case on this website since the beginning. I read almost everything...yet rarely post. I did a google search and found something interesting - which may or may not have something to do with Rodney's frustration in terms of looking for the truth. First is a link to a news story about TM, JG and someone named Brandon who were arrested for dealing drugs in September 2011 ( crack cocaine etc. )

http://swo.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/...tock-drug-arrests-mcdonald-110928?hub=SWOHome

This Brandon name made me think about a couple of other things:

1) the name found written and scratched out along with T & J phone number by LE at TLM house (picture here)

Picture 33 of 111

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/04/19594746.html

2) Wasn't there some reference to a person named Brandon and Canadian Tire in Rafferty's first interview with police ??

It just seams to me that this drug trafficing circle is/was a whole lot more closely linked than what has been presented in court. Maybe there will be more to come after the publication ban is lifted.

Also just wondering... where is ChaChaCha ?? I haven't seen any comments from this person in a long time.... or have I just missed them ?

That Brandon fellow is popular. I bet that may have even been the "B" name Rafferty was trying to recollect with the police. JMO

more of his rap sheet:

http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3151967

 

[Mystic]

I agree that MR was probably trying to stay out of the Federal Pen for as long as possible. He got switched from London to Chatham jail because other inmates were yelling at him. If that scared him he must be shaking in his boots about going to the big house.JMO.

personally, i've always believed MR was trying to get a KH sentence and be out in 12 at the least by blaming the partner for the whole thing

 

[OhSoCurious]

I respect your opinion, I just disagree. I can't imagine the mother of the accused in one of Canada's most prolific crimes has to go to work each day & can't attend her sons trial. Maybe she can still follow twitter for updates.

With a mother & a couple of brothers, by now you would think someone would've made an appearance? JMO

As you say ... you can't imagine ... but until you're in their shoes ... right? JMO