The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[matou]

Her grandkids came out then, and after a few minutes of conversation and getting them belted in, she slowly drove her vehicle away and onto the street.
She saw the woman in the white jacket again, she said.
“She was walking up the sidewalk, really quickly, stern-faced; it seemed like she was on a mission,” she said.
Behind her was a little girl, “talking a mile a minute … I assumed it was her mother.”

snip

But the lawyer’s suggestions to Ms. McClintic — and his suggested theory of the crime for that matter — remain just that.
McClintic adamantly disagreed with the suggestions, and didn’t, in the language of the courts, “adopt” them as her own.
That means the suggestions, and the suggested theory of what happened, can’t be considered evidence.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...-takes-last-shot-at-raising-reasonable-doubt/

 

[roseofsharon]

If TLM knew TM (from their meeting at CM's house) ... then she also could have known that VS was TM's daughter. TLM may have seen them together - walking dogs, walking to & from school, driving around town. Seems possible (likely!).

From today's testimony it seemed that there was some degree of familiarity between TLM and VS.

SO ... "IF" MR had asked for a young girl to assault, WHY would TLM choose someone she knew, whose mother she knew, and most importantly someone who could identify her?

JMO

IMO, it was because they had a pact that whoever they kidnapped would not be coming back home and thought they would forever hold this secret between them.

MOO

 

[JayFriend]

What I'm trying to understand is why Rodney keeps saying this. Either he has already heard certain testimony that the ban has prevented us from hearing thus far and is watching the defense imply that MR wasn't responsible or this evidence has not been permitted in court for whatever reason. Why is he not satisfied with TLM's account on what happened that day. He has definitely not heard a word from MR, as we haven't, so what does he know that he is stating "we will never know the truth" Is it possible that he thinks, as I have since the start, that Tori was taken for profit and both TLM and MR are covering it so people won't come and kill them? He was a pimp and that testimony floored me because that motif would make total sense and the girl that testified to that, did it WILLINGLY for a reason. He keeps talking about all the lies, which tells me he does not believe fully TLM's account of the events of April 8th to which he can't voice for whatever reason.

Other than Rodney not knowing about that last witness, it's my feeling that he knows an awful lot about what has been going on, plus all the rumours. If Rafferty gets life, the purpose of this trial will have been accomplished (IMO), even though it happened by a circuitous route and all the truth didn't come out. Perhaps Rodney knows stuff that would just be too sordid for the public. Maybe there are others involved. Maybe in time someone will put all the suppressed facts together and write a book. Maybe Rodney could do it, but may not want to.

 

[matou]

The grandmother’s testimony, both in chief and in gentle cross-examination by prosecutor Michael Carnegie — he suggested that perhaps her vivid memory of the woman was a function of having seen the infamous security video which was played so often in public when Tori was still missing — lasted about an hour.
Mr. Derstine later read in the agreed statement of facts, that on April 8, 2009, there were 326 students at the little girl’s school.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...-takes-last-shot-at-raising-reasonable-doubt/

What was the point of him mentioning that there were 326 students? That they were all leaving school at the same time from various areas and the exits would be crowded with kids and parents and buses? JMO

 

[gardenia]

IMO, it was because they had a pact that whoever they kidnapped would not be coming back home and thought they would forever hold this secret between them.

MOO

Then, working with that theory ... why wouldn't they have been better prepared to commit a murder; such as having the weapon purchased already? And why make all those stops along the way for drugs and cash and coffee?

JMO

 

[matou]

Defense Calls First & Only Witness To take The Stand Posted today at 6:15pm by Blair R. Wilson



http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial

Thirty-Two days into the first degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty and the defense began its case this morning at the London courthouse.

Dirk Derstine, representing 31 year old Michael Rafferty on charges of murder, sexual assault causing bodily harm and kidnapping of 8 year old Tori Stafford, declined an opening statement and called his first and only witness to the stand.

The name of the witness, a Grandmother of two children who are currently attending Oliver Stephen’s Public School, is under a publication ban imposed by Superior Court Justice Thomas Heeney.

The 60 year old woman testified she and her daughter enforced strict rules with the two children that neither one of them is to leave Oliver Stephen’s Public School until they are picked up each and every day by them at 3:30pm.

On April 8, 2009, the day Tori disappeared from that very school, the woman testified she witnessed a woman with a white puffy ski jacket walking along the front wall of the school behind the Teachers and school buses that afternoon and directly into the school's front door.

She said she saw the same woman again walking with a little girl resembling Tori on Fyfe Avenue northward minutes later.

The witness told the jury both the woman in the white jacket and the little girl were talking, smiling and laughing as they walked quickly away from the school.

Derstine asked his witness “Do you know Michael Rafferty?” the woman replied “No.”

He then asked her how she felt about testifying for the defense.

The woman replied “I’m not happy about it”.

During cross examination by the Crown, Michael Carnegie questioned the witness of her account of what she saw that fateful afternoon of April 8, 2009 while she was in the area of Oliver Stephen’s Public School.

Carnegie also stated to the woman “you didn’t tell Police during questioning on April 11thabout the woman in the white jacket entering the school?”

The woman replied “They didn’t ask”.

The woman told the courts she found it odd for someone to be wearing a heavy, puffy jacket on “such a warm and sunny day”.

Carnegie then told the woman “what if I were to suggest to you it was 8 degrees Celsius that day in Woodstock? Would that be considered warm to you?”

The trial will resume on Friday while legal housekeeping gets put into place Wednesday and Thursday.

The defense will present its closing remarks Friday with the Crown to present its closing remarks on Monday.

 

[nettie_82]

Other than Rodney not knowing about that last witness, it's my feeling that he knows an awful lot about what has been going on, plus all the rumours. If Rafferty gets life, the purpose of this trial will have been accomplished (IMO), even though it happened by a circuitous route and all the truth didn't come out. Perhaps Rodney knows stuff that would just be too sordid for the public. Maybe there are others involved. Maybe in time someone will put all the suppressed facts together and write a book. Maybe Rodney could do it, but may not want to.

I would be SHOCKED if someone DIDN'T write a book after all this. I can only hope it will be Rodney who does it if anyone. I can understand though as well why he may not want to. I certainly don't want the person who "tried" to write a book about this case in the past to write another!

 

[JayFriend]

Sorry for the double posts it keeps freezing

Freezing for me too. It takes longer to go to the next page than it does to read a page and then I have to reload half a dozen times before websleuths.com responds.

 

[roseofsharon]

For Matou ... Nothing seems to be working tonight on my computer.

I think Derstine pointed out the number of students, etc., to convey to the jury that TLM went right to VS because she was picking her up to babysit, as TLM supposedly led MR to believe. Just moo though.

 

[Heliotrope]

Can anyone post a link to any evidence as to the drug debt theory? The only time I remember it being actually entered as evidence and not as a lawyer's suggestion (which is not evidence as we've learned) was in MTR's interview with police.

Has anyone who wasn't implicated in the crime ever said anything to that effect? I'd like to see that evidence.

 

[flipflop]

Snipped from Matous post...

During cross examination by the Crown, Michael Carnegie questioned the witness of her account of what she saw that fateful afternoon of April 8, 2009 while she was in the area of Oliver Stephen’s Public School.

Carnegie also stated to the woman “you didn’t tell Police during questioning on April 11thabout the woman in the white jacket entering the school?”
The woman replied “They didn’t ask

WOW....Im speechless. She witnesses a woman entering the school that matches a descripton of the woman in the CASS video and she does not tell them about it????????????

 

[Macright]

I would be SHOCKED if someone DIDN'T write a book after all this. I can only hope it will be Rodney who does it if anyone. I can understand though as well why he may not want to. I certainly don't want the person who "tried" to write a book about this case in the past to write another!

thanks Nettie for reminding me about that person and the book...slipped my mind but it is all coming back..thanks...

 

[Wondergirl]

If TLM really did have a vendetta against TM/JG, and really did target Tori because of that, now that she is caught, and has confessed, why not bring down TM/JG now by admitting as such?

If TLM wants to bring down Rafferty by falsely accusing him of sexual assault, why confess to murdering Tori?

 

[Heliotrope]

Snipped from Matous post...

During cross examination by the Crown, Michael Carnegie questioned the witness of her account of what she saw that fateful afternoon of April 8, 2009 while she was in the area of Oliver Stephen’s Public School.

Carnegie also stated to the woman “you didn’t tell Police during questioning on April 11thabout the woman in the white jacket entering the school?”
The woman replied “They didn’t ask

WOW....Im speechless. She witnesses a woman entering the school that matches a descripton of the woman in the CASS video and she does not tell them about it????????????

Yeah, me too - what the hell? They didn't ask? I don't understand. If it was so suspicious, why didn't she report it right away? If it wasn't that suspicious, then why does she remember it with such clarity 48 days later.

For this, they gave up the chance to have the last word? Nothing about today makes any sense.

 

[roseofsharon]

I'm a bit confused here.

Did the Grandmother witness see the video surveillance, know that the kidnapper was wearing a white coat, but then when she talked to police on April 11, 2009, she didn't mention she saw a woman wearing a white coat enter the school because police did not ask?

If that's the case, that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

She is not credible at all. If she saw the video and knew the relevance of the white coat and didn't mention it, then I don't believe a word she testified to today.

MOO

 

[Macright]

does anyone have a link to the actual date when the police put out the video of TLM and TS walking by the school...thanks...

 

[CarrieBean]

Snipped from Matous post...

During cross examination by the Crown, Michael Carnegie questioned the witness of her account of what she saw that fateful afternoon of April 8, 2009 while she was in the area of Oliver Stephen’s Public School.

Carnegie also stated to the woman “you didn’t tell Police during questioning on April 11thabout the woman in the white jacket entering the school?”
The woman replied “They didn’t ask

WOW....Im speechless. She witnesses a woman entering the school that matches a descripton of the woman in the CASS video and she does not tell them about it????????????

No kidding. She knows a little girl was abducted. She knows she saw a woman with that little girl, yet doesn't think it was important enough to mention that she saw the woman go into the school because "they didn't ask"?

 

[Jezbel]

I don't believe that Tori and TLM did know each other, it has been testified by both TM and TLM that they did not. Yes TLM has lied, but I don't think that TM would lie in court under oath. Of course everyone is entitled to opinions but by disregarding testimony from Tori's own mother implies she perjured herself on the stand.

JMO

Oh and yes Tori like most kids are taught about stranger danger, but in all reality that doesn't mean she would not have happily walked off with TLM. It's been brought up before about the dateline ( I think it was dateline) episode how even kids who knew about it still went off with strangers, so just another thing which makes me think that yes Tori could have easily walked off with TLM without knowing her. In the CASS video it did not look like Tori was skipping, her mother knows Tori best and said herself she didn't seem like Tori in that video.

Again all JMO

 

[Ardy]

Interesting that LE called the case a "missing persons" case until 9 days after the abduction.......despite this witness coming forward....JMO

The case of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford was upgraded to an abduction Friday from a missing persons case -- a move welcomed by the girl's mother, though she questioned why it took so long to reach that decision.

Tara McDonald, the mother of the girl who goes by Tori, said she's been satisfied with the efforts of Oxford Community Police but added "it's about time'' her daughter's disappearance was upgraded.

"To me, it was an abduction because it was a person who was unknown to the family who abducted her,'' McDonald said.

The change in status was announced by Ontario Provincial Police Det.-Insp. Bill Renton, who has stepped in to take the lead role in the investigation.

McDonald wondered why more than a week passed before provincial police assumed that role.

"It's Day 9. I wish that the OPP or whoever they thought would have more insight was there from Day 1.''

However, McDonald was careful not to criticize the efforts of Oxford police.

"I don't think that they're doing a bad job at all, but I do think that if the OPP was going to be involved . . . I wish they had've been there from Day 1.''

She also said classifying the case as an abduction doesn't give her any additional hope.

http://www.chathamdailynews.ca/Artic...aspx?e=152954


JMO..........

 

[flipflop]

does anyone have a link to the actual date when the police put out the video of TLM and TS walking by the school...thanks...

The local LE website had this info:

Update 09APR09 Press Release

Police are now able to confirm that the young person referred to in the previous Press Release and surveillance video is in fact Victoria Stafford.

Further Description of female with white coat observed on surveillance video:

White female 19-25 years old. Approximately 51 52 and 120-125 lbs. Straight long black hair past the shoulders worn in a pony tail. Female was wearing tight black jeans and a white puffy winter jacket.

Anyone with information is asked to contact the Oxford Community Police Service at 519-537-2323 or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477

http://www.ocpsaux.org/PRESS RELEASEFrame1Source1.htm