The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[snoofer]

I don't think it makes sense (from a killer's pov) that she was sedated. Sadistic killers like to hurt and torture. Rapists like to exert their power in tangible ways. Frightening and hurting their victims are tangible ways to do this.

I know everyone wishes she was sedated, I do too, but I just don't see it.
imo

yes i thought of that too; they bought a hammer. Not a humane way to alleviate suffering and kill a person. Sadly. I tend to agree with you :O( MOO
Karma is going to haunt them every day for the rest of their lives. JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Was the grandma the one in the vehicle that we see driving by in the CASS shot? This is around the time that the woman was on the sidewalk waiting for her child. She also testified at the beginning of the trial. Did this other witness say that Tori and TLM were chatty? Was Tori talking a mile a minute? The witness' name is LP. She testified on March 6th. TIA

For some reason I can't copy and paste individual twitters, but at 4.21 pm LFP twitter reported that Derstine asked LP if Tori and TLM were talking and LP said no.

Isn't that weird that the defence asked LP a question that would contradict the statements of his one witness?

 

[Ardy]

I read a couple of articles where lawyers discussed the possibility of MR testifyiing and how the defense team would be preparing him and asking him questions the Crown may ask.

If the defense would coach their witness, would the Crown also have coached TLM, their star witness?

JMO............

 

[Ardy]

I read a couple of articles where lawyers discussed the possibility of MR testifyiing and how the defense team would be preparing him and asking him questions the Crown may ask.

If the defense would coach their witness, would the Crown also have coached TLM, their star witness?

JMO............

 

[antiquegirl]

I hope and pray that they sedated Tori. I hope she was completely out of it over the next several hours. Some of TLM's testimony leads me to believe that Tori knew what was happening though. I hope she didn't, I hope she was too drugged up to be scared or to realize what was going on.

No person should have to face fear or evil like this. No child, no adult and for that matter, no animal either.

Salem

ITA. I, too, have always hoped the same thing. Sadly, neither the Crown nor the defence asked this question of TLM, so we have no evidence that Tori was drugged. Maybe this is just another thing that TLM refuses to admit to. I also think that she may have been threatened to be still and quiet. MOO!

I believe, according to the testimony of several witnesses, that the rear car bench was already gone by April 8th. In that case, even if Tori were sitting upright back there, she'd be very low and hard to spot from any distance - especially since the rear windows were tinted. It doesn't surprise me that BA didn't see the child; MTR's car was parked on the street and BA drove into her driveway, where MTR met her. She probably had a cursory glance at the car, spotted TLM in the front and easily could have missed Tori sitting low in the back behind tinted glass.

JMO

 

[crazyladi]

Yes you can tell that she was coached and I assume it would have been the crown because it was their witness.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I read a couple of articles where lawyers discussed the possibility of MR testifyiing and how the defense team would be preparing him and asking him questions the Crown may ask.

If the defense would coach their witness, would the Crown also have coached TLM, their star witness?

JMO............

Coaching does not always mean that they would have told what they need to say on the stand when it comes to their facts, opinions etc. Couching can also mean that the they to help either one be prepared for the questions that might ask, how to sit, how to speak etc.

For example, the Crown probably told TLM that Derlstine would try to get her upset on the stand so is prepared to handle that. They might have told her to speak clearly, what to do as far as eye contact, how to dress, stuff like that.

The defence has probably couched MTR regarding his behavior in the prison box. An example of that could be the defence telling him to write even if he has nothing to write or to not mouth words to people.

 

[impatientredhead]

Yes you can tell that she was coached and I assume it would have been the crown because it was their witness.

Doing precursory runs of being questioned is not unusual at all. Both to make the witness comfortable and for the attorney to get a feel for how their witness is going to react to questioning. If your defense is well enough funded it is not unusual for them to have full mock trials, try different approaches until they get a jury to go their way.

There was one in Florida with a DJ that was accused of cruelty to animals. Short version is they had done a stunt on the air where a wild hog was killed by a licensed hunter and barbqued. On the air they played all sorts of sound effects that made it sound worse than it was and they ended up being charged even though the hog was wild and was killed by a licensed hunter in the manner outlined in the hunting and wildlife rules. Their defense did a full mock trial, three times. First two times they tried different approaches that kept the defendant off the stand, mock jury convicted them both times, third time they put the defendants on the stand to explain themselves, someone cross examined them as the prosecutor was likely to do. Mock jury acquitted them. That is the approach they took at the real trial. Defendant on the stand knew exactly what their attorney would ask, and they had the benefit of mock runs with a stand in prosecutor so that didn't rattle them. Acquitted in real life. Expensive approach but effective!

I am sure TLM did some dry runs so they could see how she was going to hold up on the stand. Did defense try a mock run with MR on the stand? Never know, that seems like a futile effort to me, but they might have thrown it against the wall to see if Mr. Charming could make an appearance.

 

[Heliotrope]

I'm not sure that it was never testified to about whom JG ripped off. Perhaps it was and it was also put under a ban since that person has nothing to do with this case. But if not, the defense certainly had the opportunity to call JG to the stand and ask him. They did not.

There was no drug debt between any of the parties involved in this case IMO.

MOO

I'd tend to agree with you on that. Though I wonder if perhaps Derstine didn't bring up the theory because it would have been adverse to his client.

But it matters not what I think, that's not why I'm asking.

I find it's getting harder and harder to try to imagine what the jurors are considering and what they may not even know about. The drug debt is one example of something that's talk about here to no end - and that's not a criticism, that's what web forums are for - but that I don't really believe was ever formally raised in front of the jury.

 

[JayFriend]

The poor lady was brought in to testify for the defense and admitted she didn't want to be there. Why put her through that? In the end, her testimony wasn't here nor there. Her eyewitness account was unreliable and the Crown immediately poked holes in it. She was on the stand for approx 2 hours. Jury was sent to an extended morning break, then upon their return a little more testimony (maybe 15 minutes) to be sent off again for an extended lunch. They returned and were told that was it for the day and to come back Friday for closing arguments by the defense.

Yeah....I consider that a waste. Derstine could've said he had no evidence.....which God forbid would've been the truth. Perhaps the only truth coming from that side.

MOO

Looks like the defence didn't have any of its own witnesses because didn't have the budget for a full fledged investigation, so it had to use whatever it could find in the disclosure provided by the Crown. This is a lawyer funded by legal aid, not one working for a big drug or tobacco company with millions to spend. Obviously, this witness was of little use to the Crown for the reasons stated above, but the conflicting evidence between her and TLM about going into the school would serve the defence's purpose in creating doubt.

Also, we'll never know what transpired between MTR and Derstine in preparing the defence. For all we know, maybe there never was much of a case. The lawyer did the best he could with what he had. Perhaps "all will be revealed" in his closing on Friday.

 

[antiquegirl]

For some reason I can't copy and paste individual twitters, but at 4.21 pm LFP twitter reported that Derstine asked LP if Tori and TLM were talking and LP said no.

Isn't that weird that the defence asked LP a question that would contradict the statements of his one witness?

I don't see the discrepancy here. It's approximately a 7 minute walk from the school to the nursing home. Tori could have been silent at one point and talkative at another. Even RS said in his interview yesterday that the way the witness described Tori is how she would act "if she knew you".

JMO

1:45 - 1:50

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/01/19703251.html

AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
She says the woman in white was "on a mission", little girl was "talking a mile a minute".

James Armstrong‏@jamesarmstrong7
Witness says girl was "like any school child coming out f school. Just talking and smiling and laughing"

 

[Heliotrope]

Here is an interesting read on the stress of being a juror.

I cannot begin to imagine what the jurors on this case are going through.

 

[Mystic]

Not sure, but I'm guessing the theory will be that MR knew TLM entered the school to collect Victoria.

Perhaps I'm confused, but wouldn't MR have to gone on the stand and actually stated that for the Jury to consider it?

It seems that Derstine's questions of the Crown's witnesses (i.e. of TLM.. if she was babysitting) are being considered as evidence but my understanding is that he would have had to brought in witnesses and/or evidence to those theories? Have I been mistaken? And if I am incorrect, then there is alot more wrong with our courst system then I originally thought. I sure don't want the Jury back there discussing theories of which came thru from the attorney rather then thru evidence/witnesses. I'd like if anyone could let me know if this is possible? thx's

mystic

 

[Mystic]

What I'm trying to understand is why Rodney keeps saying this. Either he has already heard certain testimony that the ban has prevented us from hearing thus far and is watching the defense imply that MR wasn't responsible or this evidence has not been permitted in court for whatever reason. Why is he not satisfied with TLM's account on what happened that day. He has definitely not heard a word from MR, as we haven't, so what does he know that he is stating "we will never know the truth" Is it possible that he thinks, as I have since the start, that Tori was taken for profit and both TLM and MR are covering it so people won't come and kill them? He was a pimp and that testimony floored me because that motif would make total sense and the girl that testified to that, did it WILLINGLY for a reason. He keeps talking about all the lies, which tells me he does not believe fully TLM's account of the events of April 8th to which he can't voice for whatever reason.

I do think that there is alot that wasn't allowed to be brought in. I don't think it's anything to do with drugs and/or selling VS. My idea is that it's more about MR's tendencies or other actions that were not allowed to be brought in for whatever reason.. and MR not taking really didn't give the Crown an opportunity to bring some 'possible' other info in (?) just a guess

 

[myzzy]

It is hard to dismiss the drug debt theory, for those who followed the case from the beginning.

It goes back to denials of drug use, denials of knowing each other, denials of drug debts.........all of which were found to be true.

It also goes back to the first month of investigation by LE, where they focused their attention, and why they did.

There is no denying drugs are a central part of this sad story. You can't rewrite history, regardless of sensitivities.

I believe more will come out after the trial has ended.

I hope MR is given justice......which ever way the verdict goes.

JMO........

BBM - I also think this, once the bans are lifted, i believe a clearer picture will emerge giving a bit more information on what happened that day, where the EOA the defence kept asking too ect.

 

[Mystic]

It was tweeted earlier today that none of MTR's family members were present. It is my understanding they have not attended any day of the trial.

They're probably disgusted.

yes, i'm sure they are disgusted, imo if they didn't think he did this they would have been there to support him

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I don't see the discrepancy here. It's approximately a 7 minute walk from the school to the nursing home. Tori could have been silent at one point and talkative at another. Even RS said in his interview yesterday that the way the witness described Tori is how she would act "if she knew you".

JMO

1:45 - 1:50

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/05/01/19703251.html

Here is what AM980 tweeted yesterday:

-On April 8th, as usual, she went north on fyfe. Saw the woman in white walking on the side walk. Little girl with her was "happy, skipping

"

Isn't that the sidewalk where LP reported seeing TLM and Tori? I understand what you are saying though.
I know that Rodney believes that the abduction was related to Tara's drug use, but I think that it is very possible we will learn that the Jame's drug debt was not in anyway connected to Tori's abduction.

I also don't think that Rodney knows much more about LE's investigation and what would be presented in court, so I don't think his opinions are based on insider information about Tara's drug abuse being related to Tori's abduction.

Either way it looks to me like the defence really has no evidence proving MTR's innocence, although I know they are not obligated to provide it. In think that Derstine would have done better if he would have brought in Cindy Anthony to testify that she knows MTR wasnt with TLM when she murdered Tori because she was looking to see if evergreens can produce chloroform and that she knows that the backseat was not in MTR's car on 4.8.12 because she had cleaned it that morning because it smelled like rotten pizza.😊

 

[Wondergirl]

Well, it's the day after the big "day" of defense, and I am still shaking my head at how little defense was actually offered.

In my opinion, there was so much damning evidence presented against Rafferty by the Crown, that Derstine could only call but 1 witness, entered a measly 4 exhibits, and otherwise left nothing open to cross (because everything would be shut down by the Crown). Couldn't he even come up with a forensic expert to refute the physical evidence? How about a good 'ol delusional friend or two, a relative of Rafferty's to show what an upstanding character he was? Oh, wait, he wasn't, and don't even GO THERE on CHARACTER (yet another can of worms best left closed).

Yesterday's defense presentation (or lack thereof) would only be offered for an accused man with everything to hide.

An innocent man would have FAR MORE to present than Granny.

Sorry, but, something just isn't adding up.

Steer the jury from above, sweet, innocent, Tori, steer them from above.

JMO

 

[daisy.faithfull]

BBM - I also think this, once the bans are lifted, i believe a clearer picture will emerge giving a bit more information on what happened that day, where the EOA the defence kept asking too ect.

I forgot about that whole EOA thing, Derstine never did bring that up again did he?

IMO he didn't because it was just a red herring.

I don't think Tori's abduction had anything to do with drugs or a gang initiation thing. To be an initiation I'd think that another gang member would have to be there to verify that TLM did kill Tori.

 

[tmhco]

I believe if RS still believed this had anything to do with a drug debt, he would be screaming it to all that would listen. He wants the TRUTH. JMO