The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Flossie JMO]

Or Tori was hidden in the back. I still think these two injected Tori with something to make her pass out. She would have been screeming if they didn't and would have been visible to others.

Possibly, or maybe not? that's why I asked if there was any video of TLM inside the car while it was driving around. If not, why not? is there any proof Tori was hidden? If she was, JMO, that would be a sign that she obviously should not have been in that car. JMO If she was not hidden, well that brings that up for discussion IMO. JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

Wasn't this the first the Crown had heard of this claim about a woman in a white coat entering the school? Didn't the woman say that she didn't tell LE about it because they didn't ask?

It sure seemed like news to RS.

MOO

Hi, I don't have the link of RS handy and don't see in the media links, if you have it handy, please post, TIA

eta JMO the Crown did not disclose when they heard of this. please link if you have that, TIA

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I've been following this case on this website since the beginning. I read almost everything...yet rarely post. I did a google search and found something interesting - which may or may not have something to do with Rodney's frustration in terms of looking for the truth. First is a link to a news story about TM, JG and someone named Brandon who were arrested for dealing drugs in September 2011 ( crack cocaine etc. )

http://swo.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/...tock-drug-arrests-mcdonald-110928?hub=SWOHome

This Brandon name made me think about a couple of other things:

1) the name found written and scratched out along with T & J phone number by LE at TLM house (picture here)

Picture 33 of 111

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/04/19594746.html

2) Wasn't there some reference to a person named Brandon and Canadian Tire in Rafferty's first interview with police ??

It just seams to me that this drug trafficing circle is/was a whole lot more closely linked than what has been presented in court. Maybe there will be more to come after the publication ban is lifted.

Also just wondering... where is ChaChaCha ?? I haven't seen any comments from this person in a long time.... or have I just missed them ?

On page 38 of the transcript of LEs interview with MTR he said that he thought the guys name was "um Brian I think or Brad Brad or Brian....". Sorry I can't cut and paste from the book shelf on my iPad.

I also did a word search on the PDF of that same interview for 'Brandon' and it said that Brandon did not appear anywhere in the document.

 

[snoofer]

IMO, Derstine's defence was doomed from the beginning when he suggested to TLM in cross that MR was the innocent dupe who helped her clean up the crime scene. The drug theory was a brave attempt, but it really insults one's intelligence, I hope the jury can see through that.

legally I think defense would have to use the clean up crime scene IF MTR told them that BECAUSE I think legally defense would have to disclose certain info to crown if they come across it. I think him admitting to being at crime scene would be one of them. MOO I think there are some ethics that have to be followed. JMO

 

[nettie_82]

I sat here thinking about the juror's today, I have to wonder if after they render a verdict and they are allowed to watch the news and such again, if they will pour over all the newspaper articles, go back to the beginning of this case and read every little bit of info available? I think I would! I can't imagine how this will affect the rest of their lives. It has obviously affected all of us here, but for someone in their position...wow.

I have also wondered if after all is said and done if there will be interviews done with Tara and Rodney and maybe they will be more open to say what has been on their minds exactly through this. I am sure in the next two weeks when we finally hear what has all been discussed during legal arguments, etc. we will have some questions answered and some gaps filled.

D<modsnip>...I wonder every day how he copes with in day to day life especially the last two months. May he feel his sister wrapping her arms around him!

 

[Macright]

Wasn't this the first the Crown had heard of this claim about a woman in a white coat entering the school? Didn't the woman say that she didn't tell LE about it because they didn't ask?

It sure seemed like news to RS.

MOO

no I think the crown heard this before yesterday...it was just that they chose not to bother with it because it didn't fit with their story that TLM kidnapped TS off the street.....it was the first time that RS heard it but that means nothing because the LE probably, since they were not going to use her, did not inform RS...I doubt if RS was informed of much pertaining to the trial...they would not divulge that info even to RS...IMO this being written that the witness ONLY mentioned this yesterday is the cause of a lot of mean things being said about her credibility....JMO she just didn't throw this out yesterday....

 

[Flossie JMO]

It just bothers me that the witness said "white puffy coat" when that jacket that TLM was wearing was anything but. It was a structured 3/4 length ski jacket with prominent black striping down both sleeves and around the very large hood on the back. And the woman did not notice any of these details but used the same term that the media had used to describe it.A "puffy" coat would be more of a down filled bomber jacket IMO.

I do not doubt that the woman saw a woman in a white coat near the doors to the school on that or perhaps some other day but random eyewitness testimony is so unreliable and no one else saw this woman enter the school that day apparently.

There is also the testimony of the teacher who claimed that Victoria left the school alone and the grandfather who was quoted in the media as having seen Victoria outside alone when his grandaughter asked if they could drive her home.

And I'm sure if the Crown had known that the defense was going to call on this one unreliable witness who never told them that she saw the woman in the white coat entering the school, then they may have decided to put the grandfather on the stand as well.

They didn't because there appeared to be no issue that TLM had lured Victoria outside the school because she was the only child who appeared to be alone. And I still believe that to be the case.

MOO

bbm, JMO, the OPP news release called it a "white puffy jacket" iirc. JMO

 

[giantalkinghead]

On page 38 of the transcript of LEs interview with MTR he said that he thought the guys name was "um Brian I think or Brad Brad or Brian....". Sorry I can't cut and paste from the book shelf on my iPad.

I also did a word search on the PDF of that same interview for 'Brandon' and it said that Brandon did not appear anywhere in the document.

Thanks for this.... just wondering if this Brad or Brian or Brandon are all one in the same . Wondering if in fact MTR did know TM and JG...

 

[Flossie JMO]

I guess it depends who you are because my neighbour is outside doing her gardening in a sweater. It's 11c here.

JMO everyone handles temperatures differently, and at different times, hot flashes can occasionally be a factor with other women's thoughts on temperature too ime

 

[nettie_82]

IMO, Derstine's defence was doomed from the beginning when he suggested to TLM in cross that MR was the innocent dupe who helped her clean up the crime scene. The drug theory was a brave attempt, but it really insults one's intelligence, I hope the jury can see through that.

Lawyer Dirk Derstine suggested Thursday to witness Terri-Lynne McClintic that she "drove the engine" of the events that led to the kidnapping and death of Victoria 'Tori' Stafford on April 8, 2009.

Painting a picture of McClintic as a violent liar, Derstine suggested she must have known or seen Tori in the area of Woodstock where they both lived and walked their dogs, and targeted her that day.

But McClintic denied knowing the girl. She admitted her guilt in the abduction but said her ex-boyfriend Rafferty directed the operation.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19539641.html

Since lawyers’ questions aren’t considered evidence unless the witness agrees or “adopts” them, the questions remain just that until and unless Mr. Rafferty testifies, at which point, jurors would be left to believe some, all or none of what he said, just as they may with every other witness.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ccused-tori-stafford-killer-michael-rafferty/

I hope the juror's are reminded of this last fact before going to deliberate.

 

[Macright]

re: my post of #426...here is the link to the TWO interviews with the LE by yesterdays witness... the only thing the crown questioned her on (yesterday) was the colour of TLM's pants which she was unsure of when she was interviewed in 2009 TWICE...

http://www.globalnews.ca/stafford+trial+rafferty+wont+testify+in+own+defence/6442631898/story.html

 

[thisgirl]

I have read every post in this forum up until now & I would like to say "hi" & thank everyone for all of your time & effort & opinions.

My daughter turned 9 on April 8th 2009 & living in a my own "small town" environment & southern ontario not far from it all, I can tell you this case has had a profound effect on the way I look at everything, everyone & my daughter.

I think it's one thing to think your child is feisty & would have an attitude or never go with strangers, i sure know that from experiences & we all want to believe it. but what i have been forced to notice since the day sweet Victoria went missing & watching the news - was just how little, my little girl really was. I saw her so much different. When she felt scared & vulnerable - the way she would act around people. I just paid so much more attention. She is 12 now & full of "attitude" but still just a "little girl" - it just breaks my heart the the world is missing its Victoria Stafford.

I tried to view this trial with an open mind in the interest in the process of justice & i cant express how difficult that was because it's been the most emotional i have ever experienced & i have never had so many tears while reflecting on a case & comparing it to my personal life. i just have to say that the fact that MR didn't say ONE thing in his defence seals the deal for me. this is the one & only time I felt that if the defendant had anything to say they MUST say it, on the stand & i dont care how stupid the story would sound he needed to tell it. I know that to testify is a choice. imo he didnt have a choice & imo is guilty as charged. there is so much i want to say. but there are now words really. i am just so stunned by this tragedy I cant even think straight sometimes.

I am not sure any of this came out right, & i am sure not as profound as i would like to be - but I just didnt want to "armchair from the side lines" any longer & include myself in the group while we wait....

 

[Flossie JMO]

I believe if RS still believed this had anything to do with a drug debt, he would be screaming it to all that would listen. He wants the TRUTH. JMO

JMO I do not think he would scream it out to all that would listen. He would be in discussions about it with LE to find out the truth. JMO he wouldn't put it out to the public JMO ONLY

 

[Flossie JMO]

I know there are people that have speculated he might think Tori's death was related to Tara's drug use. Anyway if he does think that he can't talk about it as long as the publication ban is in place.

JMO ONLY if he did find out any such info, JMO ONLY he would not speak about it to the press after a publication ban is lifted. And I have no idea what is contained in that publication ban of course JMO ONLY

 

[Macright]

Thanks for this.... just wondering if this Brad or Brian or Brandon are all one in the same . Wondering if in fact MTR did know TM and JG...

wonder if that was the name scratched out on that piece of paper that LE retrieved from CM's house....three names together and now three names together on an another charge...JMO

 

[Flossie JMO]

I forgot about that whole EOA thing, Derstine never did bring that up again did he?

IMO he didn't because it was just a red herring.

I don't think Tori's abduction had anything to do with drugs or a gang initiation thing. To be an initiation I'd think that another gang member would have to be there to verify that TLM did kill Tori

I think the EOA will for sure will be brought up by derstine because he kept bringing up that and Necro.

quotes are off, the post below is by crazyladi:


I am sure even if Rodney feels this way there is a lot that he can't say or it will jeopardize this trial. I really feel that he blames TM... Jmo

bbm, JMO, I don't think he will raise that in the press now or after the trial, I could be wrong, but would be surprised JMO ONLY

 

[snoofer]

I have read every post in this forum up until now & I would like to say "hi" & thank everyone for all of your time & effort & opinions.

My daughter turned 9 on April 8th 2009 & living in a my own "small town" environment & southern ontario not far from it all, I can tell you this case has had a profound effect on the way I look at everything, everyone & my daughter.

I think it's one thing to think your child is feisty & would have an attitude or never go with strangers, i sure know that from experiences & we all want to believe it. but what i have been forced to notice since the day sweet Victoria went missing & watching the news - was just how little, my little girl really was. I saw her so much different. When she felt scared & vulnerable - the way she would act around people. I just paid so much more attention. She is 12 now & full of "attitude" but still just a "little girl" - it just breaks my heart the the world is missing its Victoria Stafford.

I tried to view this trial with an open mind in the interest in the process of justice & i cant express how difficult that was because it's been the most emotional i have ever experienced & i have never had so many tears while reflecting on a case & comparing it to my personal life. i just have to say that the fact that MR didn't say ONE thing in his defence seals the deal for me. this is the one & only time I felt that if the defendant had anything to say they MUST say it, on the stand & i dont care how stupid the story would sound he needed to tell it. I know that to testify is a choice. imo he didnt have a choice & imo is guilty as charged. there is so much i want to say. but there are now words really. i am just so stunned by this tragedy I cant even think straight sometimes.

I am not sure any of this came out right, & i am sure not as profound as i would like to be - but I just didnt want to "armchair from the side lines" any longer & include myself in the group while we wait....

Welcome! And so very well put. MOO

 

[Flossie JMO]

yes, i'm sure they are disgusted, imo if they didn't think he did this they would have been there to support him

JMO, not me. If I believed in a loved one's innocence I would support them and arrange calls when allowed, and write, and visit, and express my love and support, privately. I would never subject myself to the press and public and "angry mob" imo folks, JMO ONLY

 

[Heliotrope]

Wasn't this the first the Crown had heard of this claim about a woman in a white coat entering the school? Didn't the woman say that she didn't tell LE about it because they didn't ask?

It sure seemed like news to RS.

MOO

Kamille,
I don't think it was a surprise to the crown at all - see the National Post story from Blatchford:

"The grandmother’s testimony, both in chief and in gentle cross-examination by prosecutor Michael Carnegie — he suggested that perhaps her vivid memory of the woman was a function of having seen the infamous security video which was played so often in public when Tori was still missing — lasted about an hour."

And the story posted earlier on this thread - it was the crown that questioned why she didn't report it on the 11th, but rather not until May 26th. I think they knew all about, discounted her entirely, but were gentle with her on the stand.

By the way, I wanted to add a note about Blatchford. I'm in the military and we're in the news a lot. A LOT. Good and bad. Anyway, I always read the stories in the news, and most of them I just shake my head - it's like they're written by a journalism student in university. The stories might pass the fact checker but they're fluff, they miss the nuances and the underlying issues entirely for the most part.

Blatchford's work on the military has often been right on the money. I don't have a lot of respect for the organization she writes for, but her writing has been the same whether for the NP or the G&M or the Star. For our American friends, those publications represent the Right, the Left and Toronto respectively.

I think she has a gift for distilling the essence of an issue, and that's why people like her writing. Don't get me wrong - there's a bit of her in every story she writes, but I think what she writes channels the mood of the courtroom. I hope that's true in this case, as there's some serious contempt.

 

[snoofer]

JMO, not me. If I believed in a loved one's innocence I would support them and arrange calls when allowed, and write, and visit, and express my love and support, privately. I would never subject myself to the press and public and "angry mob" imo folks, JMO ONLY

yes but it is very possible they do not think he is innocent IMO in which case they would NOT want to support him. MOO But yes I get what you mean; there are other ways to support IF you thought he was innocent besides sitting in the courtroom. Also, MTR might have told his family he didn't want them there. We don't know. But at first glance it looks telling for sure. MOO