The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Salem]

I have been having issues as well. Maybe it is the servers or something (I really know next to nothing about computers lol).

Also, welcome to our new members!

Yes, it is because of the server. We are working on it and hope to have it all resolved SOON!

Salem

 

[swedie]

another excellent post

bbm TLM was used, just like the other one that loaded up his account imo
I've always thought TLM was a victim as well as a predator. She was a victim in childhood that skewed her to the degree that she was prime to be prone to do anything for 'that little bit of love'. I read posts about her rage, journalling and past actions... they just don't make me think that she was out to get or kill a child... this was MR's plan and she went along with it. That is why I believe she attempted to assist LE in finding Tori as well as not go to trial, then take the blame for it all (for MR to get off lighter). My ideas may not be popular but they are my opinion. TLM is where she needs to be but I don't think she is a socialpath yet MR surely 'IS' imo.

I agree Mystic and IMHO TLM is lucky she didn't find herself under that rock pile alongside Tori. I believe the only thing that probably kept MR from taking her life too was the fact he knew TLM was street smart and would put up one he!! of a fight and he could have been the one under lying alongside Tori. He may also have thought if he got rid of TLM his accomplice wouldn't be around to help him fulfill more of his sick fantasies. MOO.

 

[Salem]

I feel for MJR's Family. They are victims too and maybe far more that we will ever know. Perhaps they moved on to accepting what MJR had done. From the size of the Courtroom i think it best they not attend.

I agree. I really don't think that they stay away because of jobs. I think it is much deeper than that. People sometimes can't separate out the evil. Just because they are his family, it doesn't mean they condone what he is accused of, but if they were to show support, they would be hounded for it. And I also agree the media would be a circus.

I think they are watching the best they can from the sidelines, without jepordizing their own families, employers, employees, etc. They probably wish they could be there, to show a little solidarity, but honestly, I would advise them not to go. It is not worth the risk to their own families and loved ones.

I feel badly for them. I'm sure they never expected, in their wildest dreams, that a member of their family would be up on charges as horrific as these.

Salem

 

[Heliotrope]

Oh Man!!!!!! Thanks

I though defence was up Friday? What happened?

From LFP:
Mike Knoll:
@Ar - Defence on Friday, Crown on Monday. Jury charge on Tuesday.

 

[matou]

Jury Off Until Monday Posted less than an hour ago by Blair R. Wilson


http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial

Room 21 on the 14th floor of London’s Courthouse was near empty on the 33rd day of the first degree murder trial of Michael Rafferty.

With an exception of Superior Court Justice Thomas Heeney, The Crown, the Defense Lawyer and necessary court personnel, there were only 3 Journalists taking note.

The jury has been off since Tuesday as further legal arguments get ironed out.

During Thursday’s proceedings Heeney instructed Council the complicated matters will take at least another day.

Crown Attorney Kevin Gowdey stepped up to the plate for the few media that were present and asked if it would be okay for the media report that even further legalities will take place tomorrow.

Justice Heeney endorsed the suggestion and instructed Reporters to do so.

As a result the Jury will get a third consecutive day off and not return until Monday – that’s when Defense Lawyer Dirk Derstine will make his closing arguments.

On Tuesday the Crown will present its closing arguments, then Heeney will charge the jury on Wednesday.

Heeney’s instructions are expected to take 2 full days.

Following Heeney’s instructions, the rest of the trial will be in the Jury’s hands.

There is speculation a verdict in the case could come before the middle of this month.

 

[swedie]

I felt fairly certain that this would happen. Strategically speaking, the Defense was at a great disadvantage giving a closing on Friday to be followed by the Crown on Monday. The jury would have had the entire weekend to think about what he said (which may have been a good thing) only to have it all blasted apart by the Crown on Monday. Deliberations on Tuesday and the jury would have been thinking only of the Crown's closing, I think.

Much better to have them go back to back without that delay in between. Not much better for the Crown, but better for the defense and for the jury, I think.

I'm not worried because I think this jury will come to a good decision. If they don't find MR guilty, it will be because they have a lot more evidence than we have seen, and I don't think that is true.

Salem

IMO I bet Derstine was disappointed with this one and only witness. The Crown did a fabulous job of raising an reasonable doubt the jurors "may" have had. I bet Derstine now needs more time to rework his theory after this woman's testimony. Maybe MR was whining about something being unfair now that the end is here. I don't really see this witness's testimony as being important anyhow whether TLM went into the school or not. If anything all the pieces of the puzzle collaborate with TLM's testimony, I bet that left the jurors believing this witness was not reliable. AND no other witness had come forward to state they saw TLM enter the school...odd indeed IMHO.

 

[myzzy]

So wed is when the jury should be deliberating correct? So any and all information that the media has heard and feel should be reported will be? bans lifted?

 

[swedie]

Jury Off Until Monday Posted less than an hour ago by Blair R. Wilson


http://www.1047.ca/local-news/michael-rafferty-trial

IMO Derstine wants to delay again as he doesn't want the Crown to have the weekend to build a stronger case after they hear Derstine's closing argument. I'm not worried though because I believe the Crown has a very strong case and has their argument is pretty much finalized. I think they got Derstine running scared, yep JMO.

 

[Bravo]

My thoughts and Prayers go to the Jurors at this time and in the days to come. It must be a very horrific and surreal experience. Soon they will deliberate having heard and viewed such depravity of man. They will make their decision and then return to their lives. Forever changed i expect.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

IMO I bet Derstine was disappointed with this one and only witness. The Crown did a fabulous job of raising an reasonable doubt the jurors "may" have had. I bet Derstine now needs more time to rework his theory after this woman's testimony. Maybe MR was whining about something being unfair now that the end is here. I don't really see this witness's testimony as being important anyhow whether TLM went into the school or not. If anything all the pieces of the puzzle collaborate with TLM's testimony, I bet that left the jurors believing this witness was not reliable. AND no other witness had come forward to state they saw TLM enter the school...odd indeed IMHO.

I wonder if Derstine can ask to have this witnesse's testimony not be considered by the jury even though it was his witness?

 

[Heliotrope]

I’m not going to go into detail about the DNA, the backseat, naked but a t-shirt, the details of the kidnap, the hair dye, his dating life etc…

And butterfly earrings...

... which had the fates not sent her back for, well, here's what she might be experiencing today [source - my DS born same day, same month, same year as Tori]:

- career day at school where you dress up as what you want to be when you grow up
- looking forward to grade seven, junior high, where you get you own locker!!
- sitting next to the person you like in class and working up the nerve to talk to them
- endless ridiculous Facebook quizzes
- 'health' class (gag!)

Thanks for your post. We've talked everything over so much, it's helpful to hear a fresh opinion.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I wonder if Derstine can ask to have this witnesse's testimony not be considered by the jury even though it was his witness?

I don't know HK, but I sure would love to be in the court room to see that😜

 

[Heliotrope]

Doea anyone know if after everything is said and done, is the jury offered the opportunity to seek out therapy funded by our government? I find much of what we have heard quite disturbing (especially TLM's testimony; I had a nightmare after hearing it) now add visuals such as the autopsy pictures, I could imagine it could be quite traumatizing to the jury. So I am wondering if they assist them in dealing with any post traumatic stress after such cases.

Wow, Alison, funny you said that - I've had some insomnia since this all started, for the first time in a long time. I've wondered if that's what's going all with all the night owl posters.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm willing to bet the jurors are entitled to nothing more than a pat and on the back and 'don't let the door hit you on your way out'.

 

[tmhco]

Sometimes a tweet can say so much by saying so little. JMO

‏ @JoelBoweyCTV
Follow

Crown witnesses: 61. Defense witnesses: 1. Evidence wraps up in the #Rafferty trial. The day's events on @CTVKitchener at 6.

 

[Ardy]

I disagree, I have experienced time in a youth facility (not as a prisoner) and this is the way these kids roll. You don't earn status by beating up/targeting the weak, the old, the young or females.

I do understand though what you mean when they act within gangs and do not take into consideration those who may be injured while going after a target. Collateral damage at it's worst.

TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

She rose to the top in young offender facilities by beating people up. She took their medications from them. She was the boss of the range......and you don't get to the top by being nice.

Other inmates may not like what TLM did............but what are they going to do about it? She beat up a woman at Grand Valley prison for women for saying things about her.

TLM targets the weak and the strong.........doesn't make any difference to her................anyone who gets in her way.

Given her record........it is pretty clear to me that TLM is a really tough girl, probably physically strong, and she knows how to fight to win.

JMO

 

[Bravo]

At the end of the day and as this trial winds down. Much has been speculated and dissected. And that is what we do here. However this dear little girl Tori was taken and suffered a horrific death. They were both there. I know we move thru and become immune at times but this little girl suffered and suffered so. Not even speaking to the sheer terror she felt for those hours prior. End of story. Heartbreaking. I will never forget Tori.

 

[Bravo]

TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

She rose to the top in young offender facilities by beating people up. She took their medications from them. She was the boss of the range......and you don't get to the top by being nice.

Other inmates may not like what TLM did............but what are they going to do about it? She beat up a woman at Grand Valley prison for women for saying things about her.

TLM targets the weak and the strong.........doesn't make any difference to her................anyone who gets in her way.

Given her record........it is pretty clear to me that TLM is a really tough girl, probably physically strong, and she knows how to fight to win.

JMO

I do think she is tough. I do think she wants the world to think she is tough. When there is a duo in Crime it's always the weaker link who confesses. When there is a confession. Why is she weaker who knows. Frankly i don't care. I just want them both put away for the horrific crime they both were present for and participated in some fashion resulting in the brutal death of a child.

 

[Ardy]

you think. i think. we all think. which creates so many theories, totally agree we have not heard all the story & yet the one person who could have at least attempted to try chose not to. why?

No doubt because the defense believe they have established enough reasonable doubt without his testimony.

Defendants who testify are rare........and even more rare are those who help themselves by taking the witness stand.

MR is talking to the jury.........Derstine speaks for him.

JMO.............

 

[swedie]

I have followed the trial every step of the way in fact the crime from the start and I never saw Dirk try to discredit any of the crown's witness's called EXCEPT the one who confessed to the murder and described how she beat and stomped and kicked and then used her hammer to destroy and kill and an innocent child...the reason he attempted to discredit her was because she told so many lies..JMO it's funny though, the many that still have doubts and maybe are still on the fence did not and have not said too much about the crown's witness's other than a big "wow" sometimes.... I have never heard a word about discrediting anything that they had to say ...only comments I have heard were not about what they had to say but how would that have any bearing on this crime..ie: character being a cad...(gotta love that word cause I haven't heard that word only from an old movie)..humour of the judge...gotta love him...JMO JMO the defence calls one witness (that the crown could have used but discarded)and the poor thing is torn apart...strange eh!!! JMO

MOO but I fail to see where anyone has "tore" the poor thing apart. IIRC fellow posters have only stated why they felt granny was not a reliable witness and specifically pointed out why. You don't think the jurors will do the same? What is most important in this case and any other case is witness credibility. It is highly possible the Crown could have used her certainly. But they more than likely chose not to use granny because of her lack of credibility. It still befuddles me as to why no one else saw TLM entering the school to retrieve Tori. Now that is strange eh? MOO

As far as Derstine discrediting any on the Crown's witnesses, could it be because he had nothing to discredit them for? Or could it be he simply just was at odds on how to discredit them? Maybe he was afraid of opening that can of worms he may be forced to eat later down the road, kwim?! MOO

 

[Bravo]

Derstine has spoken for MJR and really didn't have a whole lot to say. How could he. He could not dispute his Client was at the scene. Even if i were to believe all of the events leading up to Raffery being duped and ending up in the lane way. Would not a reasonable person stop such a horrific savage attack on a child. One would have to walk a long ways away to not hear anything. And why would you turn down a lane way and then walk away??? No sensible reason. And to think he panicked and helped clean up. Was so horrified but yet is seen hugging and doing the "dance' with the partner in crime. He was there he participated and to rape and kill a child with a hammer dear gawd??? Whether he swung it or watched it???? I have no words.