The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Tahorn]

TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

She rose to the top in young offender facilities by beating people up. She took their medications from them. She was the boss of the range......and you don't get to the top by being nice.

Other inmates may not like what TLM did............but what are they going to do about it? She beat up a woman at Grand Valley prison for women for saying things about her.

TLM targets the weak and the strong.........doesn't make any difference to her................anyone who gets in her way.

Given her record........it is pretty clear to me that TLM is a really tough girl, probably physically strong, and she knows how to fight to win.

JMO

Beat her mother AND killed VS ... Not to mentioned the stuff she wasn't caught doing ... From what I understand no one messes with the crazies

 

[swedie]

I wonder if Derstine can ask to have this witnesse's testimony not be considered by the jury even though it was his witness?

I highly doubt Derstine would do this now. Phew! This could really be viewed badly but the jurors. Even if he designated her as a hostile witness, looks really bad for him. He closed the barn doors too late. I honestly do not think he was expecting this witness to give such damaging testimony to the Crown. WTH was he thinking really? For that one witness he also gave up the opportunity to speak last wowzers hahaha. MOO, I would not recommend Derstine as a lawyer to anyone. Well maybe my worst enemy lol. I saw so many missed opportunities where he could have raised reasonable doubt with some of these witnesses the Crown called. I'm still scratching my head and it's not because I have bugs either. MOO

While taking back statements, documents, or contracts can sometimes be a virtue, there are horror stories regarding its implementation. Rape victims have been sued for defamation if their cases were unsuccessful in court. They may be forced to retract an accusation of rape, which arguably re-traumatizes the victim.

In some odd instances, people have been held criminally liable for false retractions of testimony, and they have been convicted of perjury. For example, one woman in the United Kingdom was jailed for retracting an accusation of rape against her husband, not because the accusation was false, but because the retraction was. Though she was ultimately freed, her example suggests that any testimony in court, including a retraction, is weighed with due gravity.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-retraction.htm

 

[crazyladi]

TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

She rose to the top in young offender facilities by beating people up. She took their medications from them. She was the boss of the range......and you don't get to the top by being nice.

Other inmates may not like what TLM did............but what are they going to do about it? She beat up a woman at Grand Valley prison for women for saying things about her.

TLM targets the weak and the strong.........doesn't make any difference to her................anyone who gets in her way.

Given her record........it is pretty clear to me that TLM is a really tough girl, probably physically strong, and she knows how to fight to win.

JMO

This means nothing. This girl started smoking dope at 8!! Sexually abused as a child, and the system failed her that is why she was at the top of the young offenders.

She admitted her part she confessed her darkest sins and her life was put out for everyone to see who cares, really who cares she was a child 18yrs old that had a lot of anger.

Mtr was 28 he manipulated an 18 yr old abused, junkie, to do exactly what he needed her to do.

He had all the time in the world to tell the police what happened but no he didnt he watched the parents suffer when he knew damn well where the body was. But they were pinning it on tm and Tlm was taking the fall so why not just get rid of the evidence and let it take place. His most stupidest move was going to the detention centre. His guilt seriously did it for me with his actions. Forget about the women he was with he was dancing with the devil and he was loving it because this junkie was going to take the fall.

Huge mistake.

This guy is sick, twisted, and a coward. The jury has seen this he is done. Jmo

 

[swedie]

Wow, Alison, funny you said that - I've had some insomnia since this all started, for the first time in a long time. I've wondered if that's what's going all with all the night owl posters.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm willing to bet the jurors are entitled to nothing more than a pat and on the back and 'don't let the door hit you on your way out'.

HTH. And some interesting points. I wonder if Judge Heeney will address counselling during closing or if it may have already been addressed. I would think it would be offered if someone felt they needed it after this case. MOO

Pickton jurors look back on trial's boredom, trauma

Jurors have been offered counselling, though the second juror said he thinks the only balm for the traumas inflicted by the trial will be time.
Unlike the United States, Canadian law prohibits jurors from talking publicly about their actual deliberations.

The jury deliberated for 10 days after hearing evidence in a trial that started last January.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-back-on-trials-boredom-trauma/article139263/

 

[Ardy]

There is no denying the defense theory is bizarre.

But, then the Crown theory is no less bizarre.

Bizarre is the trademark of this case, from the very beginning.

People have their daughter taken by people who sold them drugs, and happened to own the same breed of dog, and couldn't recognize them from videos or drawings............

That is about as far as I need go.....................

Want bizarre stories...........take your pick from the Crown or defense.

Glad I am not on the jury trying to decide which bizarre story is less bizarre than the other one.

JMO

 

[flipflop]

So wed is when the jury should be deliberating correct? So any and all information that the media has heard and feel should be reported will be? bans lifted?

On Tuesday the Crown will present its closing arguments, then Heeney will charge the jury on Wednesday.

Heeney’s instructions are expected to take 2 full days


....probably not until thursday if the instructions will take 2 full days.

 

[nettie_82]

On Tuesday the Crown will present its closing arguments, then Heeney will charge the jury on Wednesday.

Heeney’s instructions are expected to take 2 full days


....probably not until thursday if the instructions will take 2 full days.

I really hope we have an answer from the jury by the weekend!

 

[OhSoCurious]

I do think she is tough. I do think she wants the world to think she is tough. When there is a duo in Crime it's always the weaker link who confesses. When there is a confession. Why is she weaker who knows. Frankly i don't care. I just want them both put away for the horrific crime they both were present for and participated in some fashion resulting in the brutal death of a child.

IMO the average weak Schmo is not capable of doing these things listed in Ardy's post:


TLM had a long, long history of violence. She stabbed a cab driver in the neck with a pen, stabbed a guy on the street, punched a police officer, beat up fellow inmates..........violence was second nature to her.

 

[crazyladi]

There is no denying the defense theory is bizarre.

But, then the Crown theory is no less bizarre.

Bizarre is the trademark of this case, from the very beginning.

People have their daughter taken by people who sold them drugs, and happened to own the same breed of dog, and couldn't recognize them from videos or drawings............

That is about as far as I need go.....................

Want bizarre stories...........take your pick from the Crown or defense.

Glad I am not on the jury trying to decide which bizarre story is less bizarre than the other one.

JMO

Bizarre as it may be the crown has evidence backing these bizarre events that took place before and after her death. Case closed IMO

 

[Heliotrope]

No doubt because the defense believe they have established enough reasonable doubt without his testimony.

Defendants who testify are rare........and even more rare are those who help themselves by taking the witness stand.

MR is talking to the jury.........Derstine speaks for him.

JMO.............

No doubt indeed... Or maybe it's because he assesses they don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[OhSoCurious]

There is no denying the defense theory is bizarre.

But, then the Crown theory is no less bizarre.

Bizarre is the trademark of this case, from the very beginning.

People have their daughter taken by people who sold them drugs, and happened to own the same breed of dog, and couldn't recognize them from videos or drawings............

That is about as far as I need go.....................

Want bizarre stories...........take your pick from the Crown or defense.

Glad I am not on the jury trying to decide which bizarre story is less bizarre than the other one.

JMO

Don't forget the donating of furniture between all parties involved. Tara giving to Carol and Terri-Lynn. Mike's Mom giving to Carol and Terri-Lynn.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9530446.html

JMO

 

[Macright]

Don't forget the donating of furniture between all parties involved. Tara giving to Carol and Terri-Lynn. Mike's Mom giving to Carol and Terri-Lynn.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/21/9530446.html

JMO

they had they own little Value Village depot between them....with some sidelines...JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

This means nothing. This girl started smoking dope at 8!! Sexually abused as a child, and the system failed her that is why she was at the top of the young offenders.

She admitted her part she confessed her darkest sins and her life was put out for everyone to see who cares, really who cares she was a child 18yrs old that had a lot of anger.

Mtr was 28 he manipulated an 18 yr old abused, junkie, to do exactly what he needed her to do.

He had all the time in the world to tell the police what happened but no he didnt he watched the parents suffer when he knew damn well where the body was. But they were pinning it on tm and Tlm was taking the fall so why not just get rid of the evidence and let it take place. His most stupidest move was going to the detention centre. His guilt seriously did it for me with his actions. Forget about the women he was with he was dancing with the devil and he was loving it because this junkie was going to take the fall.

Huge mistake.

This guy is sick, twisted, and a coward. The jury has seen this he is done. Jmo

Sure the system failed her, like it does thousands of children everywhere. But they don't all turn into child killers and junkies. Many of these kids won't accept help even when it is given to them. She will never have my sympathies for her past after the brutal, horrifying act that she has admitted committing. Nor will I ever believe that she was or could be manipulated - by anyone.

Personally, I'm not sure I believe that either one manipulated the other. Had TLM not wanted to do it, she wouldn't have, simple as that. Whether he was an active participant or duped into it or just in the wrong place at the wrong time is up to the jury to decide. Yes, it would have been nice if he had taken the stand and told his side. But there are disadvantages to that, regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent. The Defence is there to prove reasonable doubt. IMO, they have raised some serious questions about the Crown's theory. Whether it's enough is anyone's guess. Not much longer and we'll all know.

JMO

 

[Wondergirl]

Just to point out something. Women tend to write in journals while men do not in most cases. To me that might be why we cant find anything about his thoughts or feelings because he actually said them to people and bbm them...But those are all just "hear say" and you cant track any connversations through BBM that I am aware of. She was just caught because she wrote these things down, he wasnt because he actually verbalized how he felt.

Toocloseforcomfort let us see a text he sent her and that showed how aggressive he was and wanted to slapped and what not.

So I am just stating just because she wrote down her nasty disturbed thoughts doesnt mean that MTR didnt have the same ones and ones that cant be traced or hear say. JMO

I suspect we will be hearing ALOT about what Rafferty wrote down, after the jury goes out.

I will wait patiently, for there a few key journalists, who have devoted an enormous amount of time on this case, and have faithfully attended, when others have not. They have done the leg work, the extensive interviews and they will give us the full report on all the details. We probably do not even want to hear them at this point anyway.

They can have all the legal arguments in the world about this stuff being allowed as evidence or not.

But, when the jury goes to deliberations, after all the evidence presented, I have confidence that they will do the right thing. I pray they are guided by Tori herself. If not, then surely by the wise charge of Judge Heeney.

Waiting patiently just a little bit longer. "Justice" for Tori.

 

[Thinkzerz]

they had they own little Value Village depot between them....with some sidelines...JMO

Was it mentioned in court about Tara wanting to give CM a couch?

 

[nettie_82]

Was it mentioned in court about Tara wanting to give CM a couch?

I don't believe it was. Someone may correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I do think she is tough. I do think she wants the world to think she is tough. When there is a duo in Crime it's always the weaker link who confesses. When there is a confession. Why is she weaker who knows. Frankly i don't care. I just want them both put away for the horrific crime they both were present for and participated in some fashion resulting in the brutal death of a child.

It could also be, not that she's weaker, but that she got caught first. And because she was the one on the video.

JMO

 

[Macright]

I would like to hear his side also but we may just hear that through his lawyer and that will do for me... JMO I am not that curious that I need to hear him speak or even see him in person...I don't get high on that...too many other important things in life...JMO

 

[Tahorn]

There is no denying the defense theory is bizarre.

But, then the Crown theory is no less bizarre.

Bizarre is the trademark of this case, from the very beginning.

People have their daughter taken by people who sold them drugs, and happened to own the same breed of dog, and couldn't recognize them from videos or drawings............

That is about as far as I need go.....................

Want bizarre stories...........take your pick from the Crown or defense.

Glad I am not on the jury trying to decide which bizarre story is less bizarre than the other one.

JMO

I wish there was a life sentence for being a dumb a$$ ... TheN this would be easy, no reasonable doubt ... Guilty.

 

[crazyladi]

Sure the system failed her, like it does thousands of children everywhere. But they don't all turn into child killers and junkies. Many of these kids won't accept help even when it is given to them. She will never have my sympathies for her past after the brutal, horrifying act that she has admitted committing. Nor will I ever believe that she was or could be manipulated - by anyone.

Personally, I'm not sure I believe that either one manipulated the other. Had TLM not wanted to do it, she wouldn't have, simple as that. Whether he was an active participant or duped into it or just in the wrong place at the wrong time is up to the jury to decide. Yes, it would have been nice if he had taken the stand and told his side. But there are disadvantages to that, regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent. The Defence is there to prove reasonable doubt. IMO, they have raised some serious questions about the Crown's theory. Whether it's enough is anyone's guess. Not much longer and we'll all know.

JMO

Don't get me wrong I don't defend her actions I just think we are beating a dead horse when that horse has already pleaded guilty to first degree murder. She was so far beyond help that connection with mtr proved to be a poisonous one.

I am curious as to the defenses closing it really will be interesting as I have been wondering where derstine was going to take this with his far out questions and onw witness. I am sure he will close with an extremely powerful closing. Jmo