The Water Tanks

[MoonUnderfoot]

"However, if the water is cold, bacterial action
takes place very slowly and it may take several weeks before the body appears
on the
surface. When a body is fully distended it is almost impossible to sink
even with counter weights."

 

[kingsway]

On top of the tank most likely, look at the scum on the botton of the tank in the pic, looks like mud which tells me they were pumping water out of the tank from the top and if I remember right all the plumbing was on the top

There's a pipe near the bottom though. I don't think it's feasible to have the outtake pipe at the top.

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[AlphaWolf]

There's a pipe near the bottom though. I don't think it's feasible to have the outtake pipe at the top.

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I'll try to look more into the outflow pipe...

I do remember reading that on a potable water tank ( fit for human consumption) the outflow pipe would be near the top of the tank....to avoid getting the sediment.

 

[Borris]

Photos of the pipes

 

[*~Aimee~*]

Erm.. Did you scroll all the way down?
There's a picture of the tank Elisa was found in, they cut a hole from the side. (You wouldn't expect them to cut a hole on the TOP right?)

here it is

 

[bessie]

Hey, guys. Don't forget to include links when you post images.

:tyou:

 

[oblios]

According to the linked article, "An average size domestic water tank stands about ten or 12 feet high, and is as many feet in diameter. The water used for drinking and bathing does not come from the bottom of the tank; rather, it is siphoned off the top. The water in the bottom half of the tank is reserved for fire-fighting purposes and is tapped by turning on the fire hoses found in the stairwells of buildings. The necessity for cleaning the tank stems from the fact that water entering the tank from the City's water source contains some foreign matter, which, over time, settles to the bottom of the tank."

http://cooperator.com/articles/202/1/Rooftop-Water-Tanks/Page1.html

I also read that the tanks might fill during periods of low use, like during the early morning hours. Water was constantly cycling through the tanks, her body was not sitting in still water.

As far as the lid, it seems the only person who knows for sure if it was on or off is the maintenance man who discovered her body.

 

[noodled1]

According to the linked article, "An average size domestic water tank stands about ten or 12 feet high, and is as many feet in diameter. The water used for drinking and bathing does not come from the bottom of the tank; rather, it is siphoned off the top. The water in the bottom half of the tank is reserved for fire-fighting purposes and is tapped by turning on the fire hoses found in the stairwells of buildings. The necessity for cleaning the tank stems from the fact that water entering the tank from the City's water source contains some foreign matter, which, over time, settles to the bottom of the tank."

http://cooperator.com/articles/202/1/Rooftop-Water-Tanks/Page1.html

I also read that the tanks might fill during periods of low use, like during the early morning hours. Water was constantly cycling through the tanks, her body was not sitting in still water.

As far as the lid, it seems the only person who knows for sure if it was on or off is the maintenance man who discovered her body.

Good find

 

[AlphaWolf]

On top of the tank most likely, look at the scum on the botton of the tank in the pic, looks like mud which tells me they were pumping water out of the tank from the top and if I remember right all the plumbing was on the top

There was a copper pipe and what looked like larger valve or pump on the top of the tank

 

[kingsway]

There was a copper pipe and what looked like larger valve or pump on the top of the tank

The outtake pipe couldn't be at the very top of the tank, unless there was a hose coming out of it. If it were at the top, the tank would always have to be 100% full, and water would leak from the lid, unless it were sealed tightly. Maybe there's a pipe coming out from the side near the top.

 

[Conductor71]

I also read that the tanks might fill during periods of low use, like during the early morning hours. Water was constantly cycling through the tanks, her body was not sitting in still water.

There was a copper pipe and what looked like larger valve or pump on the top of the tank

Has anyone wondered why that particular tank was most appealing to the perp?

If he had to carry EL, it was the most difficult tank to access. It was on the inside surrounded by the other tanks and on the outside edge of the building. The body was not just dumped out of convenience.

Why was that tank chosen? I don't believe it was a missing lid. Maybe it has something to do with water flow as Oblios astutely points out in his first post. Welcome, BTW!!

Any engineers in the group? If not, my dad is a civil engineer, I can get his input fwiw.

 

[BlueShoe]

Has anyone wondered why that particular tank was most appealing to the perp?

I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that their could be two reasons (and maybe others I have not thought of). One would be the ladder that leans against that tank (if it was there previous to the firefighters going up). Another would be that the tank is convenient to the roof of the elevator shack, if the body was lowered from there.

 

[Conductor71]

I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that their could be two reasons (and maybe others I have not thought of). One would be the ladder that leans against that tank (if it was there previous to the firefighters going up). Another would be that the tank is convenient to the roof of the elevator shack, if the body was lowered from there.

You are most likely right. I did think of lowering the body too but had not thought of the ladder. Fairly obvious to everyone but me...duh. :blushing:

I still would like to know how that whole tank system works given this setup.

 

[Borris]

I still would like to know how that whole tank system works given this setup.

One of the WS'ers who lives in LA wrote that they would attempt to acquire a copy of the building plans for this purpose, maybe the library or city engineering department.

Can you ask your dad where someone who lives in LA might go to get these?

There must be dozens. I have seen a lot of them, haven't really found any specific ones that showed closed lids. I thought maybe you had one bookmarked.

Ah, you look grasshopper, you do not see ...


http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_...L.jpg?quality=80&size=650x&stmp=1361335188631

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/water-tank.jpg?w=620

http://media.10news.com/photo/2013/02/20/elisa_lam_tank_body_1361398653257_376923_ver1.0_320_240.jpg

http://privateofficernews.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/09.jpg

http://c498390.r90.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/WaterTank-500x281.jpg

I'll send you my research invoice in the mail. I accept PayPal

SB - EL's tank isn't shown in the photos. LE states they didn't search that tank because the lid was on. But if you look at the location of that particular tank, the only way to know for certain if the lid is on or off is to either climb the ladder next to the tank itself, or from up on the rooftop of the equipment room.

I don't have a lot of faith that they did either one. They would either have to climb the ladder to the roof of the equipment room, then walk around a partial barrier to the edge, and peer down on top of the tanks. Or - climb the ladder and look up close, in which case, being so inquisitive, I think they would have lifted the lid and looked inside.

 

[jetsetsam]

I apologize if this is a bit gruesome, but I have read different things about the alignment/location of the body when it was found. This description is from the chinese website:

"If she did commit suicide, then its very hard for her body to achieve the kind of position in which she was later found - i.e. head pointing downwards towards the tank base, feet pointing upwards towards the tank top. This is because when one tries to die by drowning, the body's instinct is to struggle to breathe, and thus the resulting body posture of a drowned person is normally head pointing upwards towards the sky, feet pointing downwards."

Elisa had longish hair.

I've read that bodies sink when first put into water, and then start floating when gases development inside the body due to decomposition.

It is quite likely that during the period her body was at the bottom of the tank, her long hair was drawn into the outlet near the bottom of the tank. Then as the gases developed, her body started to float, but the long hair was still down the pipe, which would hold the head of the body down and the feet would float up.

I don't support the suicide theory, but the position of the body when found doesn't rule out suicide if you take into account the possibility that the hair was in the outlet pipe near the bottom of the tank.

 

[noodled1]

I apologize if this is a bit gruesome, but I have read different things about the alignment/location of the body when it was found. This description is from the chinese website:

"If she did commit suicide, then its very hard for her body to achieve the kind of position in which she was later found - i.e. head pointing downwards towards the tank base, feet pointing upwards towards the tank top. This is because when one tries to die by drowning, the body's instinct is to struggle to breathe, and thus the resulting body posture of a drowned person is normally head pointing upwards towards the sky, feet pointing downwards."

Elisa had longish hair.

I've read that bodies sink when first put into water, and then start floating when gases development inside the body due to decomposition.

It is quite likely that during the period her body was at the bottom of the tank, her long hair was drawn into the outlet near the bottom of the tank. Then as the gases developed, her body started to float, but the long hair was still down the pipe, which would hold the head of the body down and the feet would float up.

I don't support the suicide theory, but the position of the body when found doesn't rule out suicide if you take into account the possibility that the hair was in the outlet pipe near the bottom of the tank.

Take the Chinese website with a grain of salt. There has been no official announcement on what position the body was found in. The Chinese investigators have done some great work in obtaining pics and videos but there tends to be some real leaps of faith on breaking things down.

 

[Sillybilly]

I don't have a lot of faith that they did either one. They would either have to climb the ladder to the roof of the equipment room, then walk around a partial barrier to the edge, and peer down on top of the tanks. Or - climb the ladder and look up close, in which case, being so inquisitive, I think they would have lifted the lid and looked inside.

<rsbm>

ITA ... somebody probably climbed the ladder, took a peek, and said "nope, she's not up here".

JMO

 

[OCSlacker]

I've been trying to find this information. Does anyone have any confirmation that the ladder was or wasn't there by the tank when the body was found by the maintenance worker, or at the time when the police were searching at the rooftop?

It hasn't been mentioned by the LAPD whether there was a ladder near the water tanks at all times. However, based off the photo on thread 2, post # 791, by littlewing, originally posted by SillyBilly, you can see a chained ladder on the tank next to the tank where EL's body was found.


[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8921779#post8921779"]CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2 - Page 32 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

In the video of the Chinese investigators this ladder is not there and the ladder the LAFD used is still in place. You can look under the translation page to find the video of the Chinese investigation.

Based on the chained ladder being there when the LAFD were on the roof, the fact that the ladder that is chained is not used by them or moved to look into the tank where her body was found that day, I am under the assumption that the chained ladder was always there and could have been removed by LAPD as evidence. Would explain why it isn't there when the Chinese investigators made their video. But that is not fact.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Has anyone wondered why that particular tank was most appealing to the perp?

If he had to carry EL, it was the most difficult tank to access. It was on the inside surrounded by the other tanks and on the outside edge of the building. The body was not just dumped out of convenience.

Why was that tank chosen? I don't believe it was a missing lid. Maybe it has something to do with water flow as Oblios astutely points out in his first post. Welcome, BTW!!

Any engineers in the group? If not, my dad is a civil engineer, I can get his input fwiw.

- If someone were to carry her up and place her in the tank...IMO I think the tank ( the one she was found in) would be the easiest to carry her up and put her in.

- It had a copper supply pipe at the top near the edge...made for a great handle to help pull yourself and the extra weight.

- the ladder was in between the other tank...this provided a narrow space to help brace yourself in case you needed to lean and rest.( or just lean against something to push the body up)

I tried to reenact carrying the body....from trying it, that supply pipe was key to climbing up the ladder....carrying a body or even climbing by yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BRa9nDWdmZo#t=538s

 

[findinganatta]

I apologize if this is a bit gruesome, but I have read different things about the alignment/location of the body when it was found. This description is from the chinese website:

"If she did commit suicide, then its very hard for her body to achieve the kind of position in which she was later found - i.e. head pointing downwards towards the tank base, feet pointing upwards towards the tank top. This is because when one tries to die by drowning, the body's instinct is to struggle to breathe, and thus the resulting body posture of a drowned person is normally head pointing upwards towards the sky, feet pointing downwards."

First of all, this person you quoted doesn't know what they are talking about. They're getting their information from their imagination or movies, and presenting it with an air of authority.

According to the FBI, the position of a drowned body is typically buttocks at the surface, torso usually slightly submerged or at surface (depending on state of decomp), and head and limbs hanging down. But as decomposition occurs and gasses are released, the body can sink and then resurface. That, along with the various other factors, such as this cistern's water movement (which none of us fully understand) could account for her body being found in an atypical position.

Regardless, I think they will be able to determine with great certainty if she died by drowning (testing water in lungs, blood pooling pattern, etc).

Also, I could have missed it, but I never saw direct quotes from the authorities about her body position. I've only seen it in news stories, reported second hand.

From my personal experiences being interviewed about living through a big natural disaster, media outlets are most concerned with pumping out the fastest, most provocative stories... integrity coming in a distant second or third. And once one media outlet reports something, others will repeat that info without corroborating it, which creates the false illusion of truth due to 'multiple sources'. So I take anything that didn't come directly from the authorities with a grain of salt. The authorities may also be questionable at times, but they're probably the closest thing to truth in a case like this.