Theories discussion: What could have happened to Haleigh? #3

[cyberborg]

GRACE: Do you know where the cinderblock came from that was propping the door open?

CUMMINGS: Don`t have a clue. I don`t mess with none of that, so I don`t know. I very rarely am in the back yard at all unless I`m washing my car. So it could have came from around my shed. I`m renting. I don`t know if the previous renters had it or what, but I`ve never seen it, I don`t believe.

GRACE: So to your knowledge, you`ve never seen it?

CUMMINGS: Not that I believe. I mean, I may be mistaken and have seen it before, but I know it wasn`t where it`s at now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the deal with the brick? There was a brick that was propped up.

CROSLIN: There was a brick, like, a cinderblock, that was holding the screen door open. And that brick -- that door -- that screen door is always closed, you know? That brick -- I`d never seen the brick even around there. The cops said there was a whole bunch of bricks about 50 feet away, but I`ve never seen any bricks at all.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/07/ng.01.html

 

[curvecuti]

Curvecuti - is there a way to tell if you have a door from Florida that has any kind of mold, mildew on it whether or not that has been scraped by a block to know if that was recent?

Yes, you can tell, but you can not narrow it down that close. Wear of normal use can not be narrowed down to weeks, unless like someone said the door was new. If it was there w/ the former residents it could be argued it was wear from them.

A fresh scrape or gouge can easily be distinguished from an older one but that is not going to help in this case unless it was a new door and from the pics it doesn't look like it.

 

[Baznme]

Yes -- you can tell but I don't want to nitpick about tarnishing, residue, weathering, etc, etc. Our forensics expert said it was not do-able. :waitasec:

I don't want to nitpick either. I would really like to know. Given the heat and humidity in Florida, mold and mildew grows quickly and is all over everything, especially mobile homes under trees. I live 2 hours from Satsuma and I live in a mobile home. Pressure cleaning them is common because of that, otherwise the growth takes over. If you scrape this growth, it will come off on your fingernail so I appreciate your answer that yes, you can tell if a scrape were recently put there.

 

[curvecuti]

Yes -- you can tell but I don't want to nitpick about tarnishing, residue, weathering, etc, etc. Our forensics expert said it was not do-able. :waitasec:

Since you find it nescessary to succumb to sarcasm, I will no longer be participating in this "discussion".

 

[cyberborg]

Since you find it nescessary to succumb to sarcasm, I will no longer be participating in this "discussion".

That's a shame, that makes things personal and just impacts other posters. I was not being personal. I'd just like to see some substance to your forensics assertions since I respectfully disagree.

You have been very helpful in tracking down actual photos of the back screen door and other things and you'll find a few 'Thanks' from me, to be fair and balanced. On this our posts disagree but your posts seem to override me with authority but no substantiation.

 

[kiki the parrot]

I'm still just trying to figure out if the heavier interior door closed on it's own how Misty could have readily seen that the outer storm door was propped open in the first place? :waitasec:

When questioned re this someone (can't recall, GGMS or maybe TN?) mentioned laundry was "always on the floor," in that back entry, suggesting this could have prevented the heavier interior door from closing all the way. :waitasec:

Ok folks which is it?

Is this a door that is seldom if ever in use, and always kept deadbolted from the inside?

Or is this a door used to carry trash out (ie frequently, we take our's out daily, there are only three of us--and that's not including all our separate recycling) and may have had laundry jamming the doorway, which he needed to check on a daily basis before leaving for work and she to routinely doublecheck before she went to bed to be certain it was locked?

arrot:

 

[PorcineGranny]

curvecuti, Just my two cents, but I didn't take the above remark as sarcasm. Its not about any of us, just Haleigh. We need your imput, everyones imput to reach a conclusion.

 

[cyberborg]

I'm still just trying to figure out if the heavier interior door closed on it's own how Misty could have readily seen that the outer storm door was propped open in the first place? :waitasec:

When questioned re this someone (can't recall, GGMS or maybe TN?) mentioned laundry was "always on the floor," in that back entry, suggesting this could have prevented the heavier interior door from closing all the way. :waitasec:

Ok folks which is it?

Is this a door that is seldom if ever in use, and always kept deadbolted from the inside?

Or is this a door used to carry trash out (ie frequently, we take our's out daily, there are only three of us--and that's not including all our separate recycling) and may have had laundry jamming the doorway, which he needed to check on a daily basis before leaving for work and she to routinely doublecheck before she went to bed to be certain it was locked?

arrot:

If you scrutinize the picture, kindly provided by Curvecuti then you do see trash bags in the bottom right of the picture.

http://patrishka.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/backdoor.jpg

Also, there was talk of dirty clothes being in the washer and dryer.

I'd personally suspect that the machines were used as dirty clothes storage between washes. Although the washer was reported as running that night.

I'd surmise from the trash bags outside the backdoor that it was used fairly often to throw out trash. This contradicts Ron's statement above, posted by me.

 

[Pondering Mind]

I'm still just trying to figure out if the heavier interior door closed on it's own how Misty could have readily seen that the outer storm door was propped open in the first place? :waitasec:

When questioned re this someone (can't recall, GGMS? maybe TN?) suggested laundry was "always on the floor," which could have prevented the heavier interior door from closing all the way. :waitasec:

Ok folks which is it?

Is this a door that is seldom if ever in use, and always kept deadbolted from the inside?

Or is this a door used to carry trash out (ie frequently, we take our's out daily, there are only three of us--and that's not counting all our recycling) and might have had laundry jamming the doorway, which he needed to check on a daily basis before leaving for work and she to doublecheck before she went to bed to be certain it was locked?

arrot:

This confuses the carp out of me too kiki. If this door was rarely used, (and according to Ron it was very rarely) and if there was laundry always on the floor (per TN and I can totally see that) then it seems highly unlikely that is was used often, as the laundry would block the way of opening it most of the time. Call me crazy :crazy: (I already know that I am) but I just am not seeing Ron nor Misty as the 'hyper-routinely checking locked doors kind of people'. That's jmo of course, maybe they are, they just don't strike me as such. Especially the OCD type (my words) of checking of doors that are not hardly ever used (as Ron proclaims) and blocked with laundry.

One other thing...I am having much trouble getting past why anyone trying to gain access to a home (whether it was even locked or not) would go in or out (depending on which theory one subscribes to) a door that has repeatedly been said to be difficult, quite difficult in fact to open. Think about it, you are breaking or unlawfully entering into a home and you come upon a door that is very hard to open, (after I assume it had already been 'lock bumped' or whatever Ron/Misty called it) wouldn't it be very risky to go on in that way anyway, or if one entered from the other door as some suspect, why would they then go out the difficult back door? I dunno, just can't wrap my tired old brain around that tonight!

 

[cyberborg]

http://patrishka.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/backdoor.jpg

Respectfully snipped.

Do we know when this photo was taken and by whom? I assume after the fact?

Not only do I see trash bags in the bottom-right, which suggests the backdoor was used more often than Ron suggests to NG but, don't I also see a concrete block on the ramp?

Is that the concrete block in question that was used to prop the door open?

I read that LE removed the backdoor for testing but after they cleared the crime scene and allowed Ron back.

Interesting that this photo shows a concrete block sitting right there on the walkway.

 

[Pondering Mind]

If you scrutinize the picture, kindly provided by Curvecuti then you do see trash bags in the bottom right of the picture.

http://patrishka.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/backdoor.jpg

Also, there was talk of dirty clothes being in the washer and dryer.

I'd personally suspect that the machines were used as dirty clothes storage between washes. Although the washer was reported as running that night.

I'd surmise from the trash bags outside the backdoor that it was used fairly often to throw out trash. This contradicts Ron's statement above, posted by me.

bbm~
See cyber, that's another question that bothers me and I have thought about it often! I have wondered if they didn't use the back door more often than Ron has proclaimed. I had no reason to question it, but I did...and that's led me to the question of why would they lie about it? IF they did, there has to be a good reason. It just seems that Ron has made a HUGE deal over the fact that they didn't use it and it was hard to open (but yet it's checked faithfully) he changed the lock, etc...so it does make me wonder, why. Kinda like he doth protest too much, ya know? ...ALL..jmo..mine, mine, mine, lol!

I'd still love to have confirmation about the clothes in the washer/dryer. Were they dirty/clean? Was there laundry detergent there? And if there was dirty clothes in there and no laundry detergent, how did Misty wash the blanket? For the sake of arguement, say she washed it in just water because she had no detergent and didn't want HaLeigh sleeping on a nasty blanket and that was better than nothing. (I don't believe that to be true, but just sayin) Then IF true as exhausted as she was, she put dirty clothes back in washer/dryer after washing and drying the blanket, but not all of them just some...and left the rest laying all in the floor??!!
So many questions.....

 

[cyberborg]

Yes, you can tell, but you can not narrow it down that close. Wear of normal use can not be narrowed down to weeks, unless like someone said the door was new. If it was there w/ the former residents it could be argued it was wear from them.

A fresh scrape or gouge can easily be distinguished from an older one but that is not going to help in this case unless it was a new door and from the pics it doesn't look like it.

In my post before this, Ron clearly states no knowledge of any concrete block used to prop the door open during his time renting. See:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Theories discussion: What could have happened to Haleigh? #3


Now, assuming that the prior renters did use a concrete block then the odds are high that this is a different concrete block that was used to prop against the door and would make different scratches.

Also, each time the concrete block is propped against the back door then it would not be in the exact same place in the same way, so would make different scratches. As these scratches tarnish and become affected by the elements and mould -- you can indeed tell if there was a recent trend of propping the door open.

Finally, since LE took the backdoor after the crime scene was released and fingerprints were taken then there was further analysis and testing that they were doing.

Hope that helps.

 

[cyberborg]

bbm~
See cyber, that's another question that bothers me and I have thought about it often! I have wondered if they didn't use the back door more often than Ron has proclaimed. I had no reason to question it, but I did...and that's led me to the question of why would they lie about it? IF they did, there has to be a good reason. It just seems that Ron has made a HUGE deal over the fact that they didn't use it and it was hard to open (but yet it's checked faithfully) he changed the lock, etc...so it does make me wonder, why. Kinda like he doth protest too much, ya know? ...ALL..jmo..mine, mine, mine, lol!

I'd still love to have confirmation about the clothes in the washer/dryer. Were they dirty/clean? Was there laundry detergent there? And if there was dirty clothes in there and no laundry detergent, how did Misty wash the blanket? For the sake of arguement, say she washed it in just water because she had no detergent and didn't want HaLeigh sleeping on a nasty blanket and that was better than nothing. (I don't believe that to be true, but just sayin) Then IF true as exhausted as she was, she put dirty clothes back in washer/dryer after washing and drying the blanket, but not all of them just some...and left the rest laying all in the floor??!!
So many questions.....

Thanks for the idea --- that's the key to the jigsaw puzzle Pondering Mind.

If you take all of the things that make you go hmmm, like the backdoor, like the pee blanket, the things the family obssess on, get passionate about or, why the need to lie? -- that's where the story is.

We need to reverse engineer, why the focus on the backdoor?, why was Misty so passionate about the pee blanket and, the damaged van?

They are like 'tells' that you can add into the true story and realize it.

 

[crisnnan98]

GRACE: Do you know where the cinderblock came from that was propping the door open?

CUMMINGS: Don`t have a clue. I don`t mess with none of that, so I don`t know. I very rarely am in the back yard at all unless I`m washing my car. So it could have came from around my shed. I`m renting. I don`t know if the previous renters had it or what, but I`ve never seen it, I don`t believe.

GRACE: So to your knowledge, you`ve never seen it?

CUMMINGS: Not that I believe. I mean, I may be mistaken and have seen it before, but I know it wasn`t where it`s at now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the deal with the brick? There was a brick that was propped up.

CROSLIN: There was a brick, like, a cinderblock, that was holding the screen door open. And that brick -- that door -- that screen door is always closed, you know? That brick -- I`d never seen the brick even around there. The cops said there was a whole bunch of bricks about 50 feet away, but I`ve never seen any bricks at all.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/07/ng.01.html

Wasn't it reported that the previous tenant use to do that to get the wheelchair down the ramp?

 

[crisnnan98]

This confuses the carp out of me too kiki. If this door was rarely used, (and according to Ron it was very rarely) and if there was laundry always on the floor (per TN and I can totally see that) then it seems highly unlikely that is was used often, as the laundry would block the way of opening it most of the time. Call me crazy :crazy: (I already know that I am) but I just am not seeing Ron nor Misty as the 'hyper-routinely checking locked doors kind of people'. That's jmo of course, maybe they are, they just don't strike me as such. Especially the OCD type (my words) of checking of doors that are not hardly ever used (as Ron proclaims) and blocked with laundry.

One other thing...I am having much trouble getting past why anyone trying to gain access to a home (whether it was even locked or not) would go in or out (depending on which theory one subscribes to) a door that has repeatedly been said to be difficult, quite difficult in fact to open. Think about it, you are breaking or unlawfully entering into a home and you come upon a door that is very hard to open, (after I assume it had already been 'lock bumped' or whatever Ron/Misty called it) wouldn't it be very risky to go on in that way anyway, or if one entered from the other door as some suspect, why would they then go out the difficult back door? I dunno, just can't wrap my tired old brain around that tonight!

I agree with your first paragraph. I think they would have gone out the back door, less chance of being seen if someone was driving past. Propped open so it wouldn't slam shut and wake people. Don't think it was lock bumped if LE has stated no forced entry. Her expression of calling the back door bricked or bricked open, I think it was. That was odd, to me any way as I had never heard of that before but she seemed to be familiar with it.

 

[cyberborg]

My sticking point is, based on the MH layout why would the perp having entered the backdoor not go directly across the house stealthily, avoiding the master bedroom like the plague towards the other bedroom(s)?

If a child was being sought then you'd need to know that they are not actually in those bedrooms. Also, since HaLeigh's bed seems to be hidden behind the master bedroom door if you peeked in you'd only see the master bed at first with Misty sleeping in it -- as reported.

Strange? Lots of insider knowledge.

 

[Whisperer]

To me, it seem likely that a block was always used. They had no air lock on the screen door. I bet a block was there all the time, before and after they moved in. Basing an investigation on RC can not prove fruitfull, IMO.

Take note of Ron and the block story that he gave to NG and look at his jibberish. In post #1501 that Cyberborg posted RC goes from never seeing that block to perhaps. "I have no clue" to "If I did see it, it wasn't where it is at now"... (typical RC speak)

There would be no logical reason for an intruder to use the back door. That door faces the neighbor's property and gives a view. The front faces the woods and a dirt path. There may have been things carried out the back door that night, but my thoughts are it wasn't just Haleigh.

 

[Whisperer]

I had been looking for an indent in the heavy door for RC's punch.....there is none. LE says there was a print found so I guess the door received no damage. If the doors are made of wood or metal, would they receive damage from a punch that hit it? RC's hand received damage.

May I suggest that perhaps he cut and bruised that hand prior and told LE it had just occurred before they arrived? When did he punch the door and why no visible damage....just a hand print was found?

One question that bugs me...MO is that they cannot get prints from the cinderblock...sure would like to be wrong but that surface is too porous, IMO.

 

[PorcineGranny]

I am sorta of the opinion that the back door was used to carry those marijuana plants out, not Haleigh. I think Haleigh's story was finished by then, not beginning.

 

[debs]

If you scrutinize the picture, kindly provided by Curvecuti then you do see trash bags in the bottom right of the picture.

http://patrishka.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/backdoor.jpg

Also, there was talk of dirty clothes being in the washer and dryer.

I'd personally suspect that the machines were used as dirty clothes storage between washes. Although the washer was reported as running that night.

I'd surmise from the trash bags outside the backdoor that it was used fairly often to throw out trash. This contradicts Ron's statement above, posted by me.

Further, I am looking at the dynamics of heaving the garbage bag over the railing. One would have to open up the automatically closing (though not latching) heavy door, open up the automatically closing (and latching) screen door, reach around the screen door to heave the bags off to the (as you're looking at it in this picture) right side of the ramp.

Not impossible, but why not just open up the two doors and reach down with the garbage bags and drop them to the left of the ramp, saving the difficult maneuver of swinging around the door?